..and I thought my country has entered 21st Century..

[quote]
Originally posted by Spock:
**Well, I dont know how the religion of Hinduism is made up of... However, Satti was a religious practice, and now you guys are claiming its not, cuz its bringing a bad name to your religion, and you wanna get rid of it... Rvikz here has brilliantly suggested that it was done to protect women from invaders (shifting the blame of satti to us Muslim invaders) instead of realizing it was a stupid practice in Hinduism.

[This message has been edited by Spock (edited August 09, 2002).]**
[/quote]

anything you do in india you can blame it on religen. i dont know what religious book people read or comandments people follow.

we would not be a billion people if we were that irrational pakistan included since you left the religen 700 years ago?
even little bit rationality left in you can be blamed on us.

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited August 09, 2002).]

Haha, rvikz, satti is part of your religion, and admit it, youre too embarassed to accept it now. I mean worshipping rats, and drinking their milk is one thing, but taking away your life? You call this rationality?

Dont even drag us Muslims into this, we have nothing to do with this. Its your own culture, learn to accept it.


Aisha

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I dont disagree with you .Thats why with apology for sounding chauvinistic machismo i reproduce for you my post elsewhere …

Rights of A Girl Child
Women were not born into inequity; they are deuxieme sexe only by resignation and passivity. The author reflects on the plight of the girl child in India and suggests a manifesto of action.
The right of the girl child in India is intimately linked up with the status of women. Therefore the issue is not discrimination against the girl child but the innate pervasive prejudice against woman per se. Because girls are regarded as miniature or edited version of women she suffers from the same disabilities and the same sacrifices expected of her albeit on a smaller scale. Her short uneventful childhood is a period of familiarization with her future role of marriage and housekeeping. She doesn’t need to invent the world . It is laid out for her. She has to imperceptibly slip in the designated role without any rebellious gestures or even mild questioning. That is like a good girl.
The fact of her dependence on the men folk is woven in the fabric of her life; incorporated in the cycle of seasons. The festival of Rakhi renews the protector protectee relation every year. On the occasion of her marriage, when she is given away in Kanyadan, she is securely tethered to her husband. Her future is now directed. The “give away” will now know no destiny other than that of her husband. Karwa Chouth- Teej, Bat-Savitry are a rituals of fast and oblation, for the longevity of the husband. Jeevitaya is a talisman to charm away the threat to her son. Not only the Gods but trees and animals mountains have to be propitiated, and her life is one interminable calendar of fasting, praying, self-denial and sacrifice. But despite all these preemptive, preventive measures, should she become a widow she must offer Sati; consign her body to the fire in order to be united in spirit with her husband. Her voluntary exclusion from the world of active participation defines her. Her self-definition excludes any thoughts of active participation. Generations of girls brought up in such a milieu cannot but by deliberate remonstration and by a process of osmosis inculcate the attitude of their older selves. Print this page | Email to a friend | Viewers comments | Post comments Except for their sexual differentiation, at birth, the male and female child can’t be told apart. They have the same physiological and emotional needs. In fact till they achieve puberty and develop secondary sexual characteristics, they are very much similar. Yet they are constantly made to recognize the sad fact that “the body of woman is one of the essential elements of her situation in the world”. (It would be interesting to speculate if her fate would be different if children were to be born in an androgynous state.) She has to be neat and tidy; not to mess around; climbing trees and other activities are considered tom boyish-in the most pejorative sense of the world for her. Experiencing the world at first hand without the territory first having been scouted around and found safe for her by her protectors, guardians-is ruled off the ground. Cognitively she may not understand but instinctively she begins to give in, under the weight of security protection tutelage. Even though she has the use of her limbs she is forced to accept crutches; emotionally and intellectually crippled, she fails to achieve an autonomous status. But once she has been locked up her in “feminine domain”, the society comes down on her, with the full weight of responsibility. Caring baby sitting, helping in domestic chore are assigned to her, as naturally, as they would be to any adult member of her sex. A girl child can be considered fit to undertake the responsibility of motherhood even before she is herself mature enough In many states she is still married at the age of 10 the child marriage act not with standing. While for the boys the parents often dream up a future beyond the skies, for the girl child marriage is her ultimate destiny. like a baton in a relay race she is passed on from father to husband to son.
Women thus do not have an image of themselves, separate from that created for them by their culture. The unquestioned submission has led to such an intellectual narcosis that-some notable exceptions-women have not even begun to realize the inequity or unfairness of the situation. If anything they seem to love their subjugation and flaunt their signs of slavery and bondage. The flaming red vermilion, the Mangl Sutra the amulets, the porringer all these are designed to make woman legible like money, like private property; these brand them with the mark of ownership. A whole corpus of myth, a rich forest of symbolism’s vague, translucent, barely understood-has drilled the fact that they are inferior and only “honorary human beings”. Those who are interested may just consider the semiology of the Hindu marriage rites. The males-father, brother etc-of the girl voluntarily demean themselves one to one before the bridegroom’s party. The exaggerated elaborate-little display of courtesy and inferiority is a spectacle, a ritual self-abasement for having produced a female child. The men stoop at their individual levels only to sanctify the power equation of dominance and submission-at the level of gender. No body, least of all women themselves, ask the obvious question whence came this relationship? Who appointed men as the lords and masters; lawgivers and dispensers of justice? No formal or informal consultations with the women as a group-who constitute half the human race-has ever taken place. Yet women in all societies, countries and cultural traditions but most notably in India accept them unquestioningly as their very own. When the mind is colonized the body gives in a gesture of total submission. It can suffer domestic violence, rape or unwanted pregnancy and a hundred other indignities with equanimity and a sense of fatalism
Rights of a Girl Child
Right of the girl child does cast a duty on the parents and the society, but can their denial be tackled in the same manner that any other justiciable or culpable wrong can? What can we do to a parent, who prohibits her promising daughter from joining an art-school, because it is co-educational? Should the fear of the parent, on her score be held against him? An anxious mother haunted by premonitions of death keen “to give her daughters hand” (mark the vocabulary!) in early marriage. Should the well intentioned but culpable haste be held against her? And in any case what agency of law will enforce these rights and bring the offenders to book father-brother-mother. The working of two acts will illustrate the point: first the dowry act. The wholesale violation of this draconian act, with such ease, unanimity and bonhomie is unparalleled even in a lawless society like ours. The carrying out of gender tests for foeticide have been criminalized and yet expectant parents routinely flock to such clinics, anxious to know the ‘sex’ of the temporary parasite housed in the woman’s body. And should it turn out to a female, the termination of the pregnancy can be resorted to with equal ease.


Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai … :nahnah:

there are lot of bad cultural practises
but there are no mulas enforcing it. if it is bad we say it is bad and there is oppurtunity to reform itself through civil law but there is no such mechanism in islamic law since “humans” cant fidle around with hadiths.

following article explains
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited August 10, 2002).]

spock even in saudi arabia there were some
“bad practises” that led to whahbi movements
“cleanse” the religen

Some of the Arabian tribes came to attribute the same sort of power that the Shia recognized in the tomb of an Imam to natural objects such as trees and rocks. Such beliefs were particularly disturbing to Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab. In the late 1730s he returned to the Najdi town of Huraymila and began to write and preach against both Shia and local popular practices. He focused on the Muslim principle that there is only one God, and that God does not share his power with anyone–not Imams, and certainly not trees or rocks. From this unitarian principle, his students began to refer to themselves as muwahhidun (unitarians). Their detractors referred to them as “Wahhabis”–or “followers of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab,” which had a pejorative connotation
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+sa0017)

[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
It was her own life to take, why should we judge her? She has the right to follow whatever custom he wants, no matter how strange it is to us.
[/quote]

I strongly disagree... It might have been her decision because she just did not know any better. Here was someone mentioning the importance of education... yeah .. that might change the scenario !!!

And life is a gift and an obligation from god to fulfil according to the best that has been laid out from Allah....!! You don't commit suicide when you don't wanna live anymore.

gooni i agree with you goverment laws
should be enforced to protect people's lives
when threatend by misinterprtation of religen
or casuinng death in the name of religen
or some cult practises. even if religioius
scrpture's encourages or gives divine permission to take an individual's life
state must protect the welfare of its citizens.

rvikz, mullahs can do whatever they like, can you prove our Quran/hadith speaks of any stupid practices, no way, everything is logical... Unlike Hinduism, with practices like worshipping rats, or satti for that matter.

[quote]
Originally posted by Spock:
rvikz, mullahs can do whatever they like, can you prove our Quran/hadith speaks of any stupid practices, no way, everything is logical... Unlike Hinduism, with practices like worshipping rats, or satti for that matter.
[/quote]

why you need 4 male witnesses to porve rape?
atleast rat worhipeer have more logic and hemay be even smarterthan you.

what makes you think just because you pray to
one god desrves phd in physics?

do you need to pray some way to get a job?
i going to pray to my dog just for fun.

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited August 10, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**

why you need 4 male witnesses to porve rape?
atleast rat worhipeer have more logic and hemay be even smarterthan you.

what makes you think just because you pray to
one god desrves phd in physics?

do you need to pray some way to get a job?
i going to pray to my dog just for fun.

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited August 10, 2002).]**
[/quote]

Forgive me, but I fail to realize the logic in this post of yours, maybe you should explain it to me again, as I couldnt figure out what you meant by going and worshipping you dog?

spock i am not going to worry about what
one prays to it is his choice. but if one want to kill others in the name of religen
or impose his will on others he becomes fanatic.

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**

why you need 4 male witnesses to porve rape?
atleast rat worhipeer have more logic and hemay be even smarterthan you.).]**
[/quote]

Ok ...Ravi ... this is so not comparable ... you could compare this instance of proving rape with four witnesses .... to the instance of a pujaree allowed to have sex with any virgin he likes.... that is straight from the roots of your religion.

[quote]
what makes you think just because you pray to
one god deserves phd in physics?).]**
[/quote]

Well it doesn't!!! We pray to one God because we believe in One God and there is no God but him... what's the deal about physics??

[quote]
do you need to pray some way to get a job?
i going to pray to my dog just for fun.).]**
[/quote]

And what good are your multiple gods then ravikz??? You see ... a muslim prays to one God whenever in need AND for fun AND in happiness ..... I am sure Allah wouldn't mind if i make a wish to have a yellow beetle right now.... !!!

[This message has been edited by gooni_2000 (edited August 12, 2002).]

RVIKZ

THe jurisdprudence part of Islamic Givt is limited to Islamic govt .AND i am not even saying that what you say (4 male wittness nonsense is absolutely correct /

Muslims can live in non-islamic country & dont have to deal with those islamic jurisprudence.

Any jurisprudence even in 21 st century is dispute riddled & at times murderous take for e.g. 30% of america death row were proven innocent by DNA latest identification techniques.It is much easioer to modify jurisprudence Islamic or none than basic tenents of islam…

No body to morrow can say dowry is o.k. or no divorce from women side…or mohomed cant be the last prophet ..these are much more higher in importence than determining rape evidence which is now can be done by dna or semen exam etc.

Alsio Mullahs are not special human in islam ..In islamic country the king may appoint them qazi or judge but again for those muslims not living in islamic country dont deal with & yet practice islam just a much as any pious muslim.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif


Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nah.gif

[This message has been edited by Gymnasophyst (edited August 12, 2002).]

what right muslims have to question the rat worshipper in a remote villge or in his tribal place? did he do anything against muslims?
did he invade islamic country and stole their wealth?
if pakistan wants to ban it it can.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by rvikz: *
**what right muslims have to question the rat worshipper in a remote villge or in his tribal place? did he do anything against muslims?
did he invade islamic country and stole their wealth?
if pakistan wants to ban it it can. *

[/QUOTE]

Only just as much as you have in this thread to questionnwhat ever you r questioning.( doesnt mean i agree with them)

I didnt read all posts to day ...but no body can stop any body TALKING about them in there space .

Its impolite & discourteous not to say embarrassing to talk negatively in presence of a rat worshipper but hardly stoppable .

muslims should participate in more chalenging theological debate
and should not lower their standard .

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by rvikz: *
**muslims should participate in more chalenging theological debate
and should not lower their standard . *

[/QUOTE]

You are basically generalizing muslims here .... no ravikz ... we are too many..... and someone might have annoyed you ... but you should be open minded about it....!!! you start a thread where you know people with all kinds of views will reply.

Why complain ...???

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
<>

That idiocy is reserved for the 7th century. If you haven't noticed it's 2002. So women have no rights under your interpretation as they are generally not the providers in islamic countries.
[/QUOTE]

What a stupid justification for your religious belief... Chaltahai, will your wife kill herself after you pass away?