The following has been re-printed from an article posted on the internet by Dr Syed Rashid Ali.
…
[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 18, 1999).]
I had been waiting to get the facts about the Ahmadi movement for some time. This article seems like a beginning of an interesting debate. In my previous posts, I requested Mr. Jewels to explain their doctrines which upto this point has not been done. Therefore, I ventured to do some research on my own and much to my surprise found that even Ahmadi movement has its share of internal dissent. The following is an excerpt of an article I found at a web site representing the Lahore Ahmadi movement and it explains the nature of religious split:
"Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (d. 1908) had created the Ahmadiyya Movement not as just another sect of Islam which, like other sects and factions, would engage in sectarian bickering and denounce fellow-Muslims of other persuasions as being kafir and ‘expelled from Islam’, but he had created it as a force for the presentation of true Islamic ideals.
Hazrat Mirza, upto even the last few days of his life in May 1908, in his reported conversations with distinguished Muslim visitors while staying in Lahore, spoke of himself as one of the mujaddids of Islam (see the statement on 25 May 1908, Malfuzat, vol. 10, pp. 451 - 452, under title ‘Need for a Mujaddid.’) Hazrat Mirza also assured them that he did not regard Muslims outside his Movement as kafir; far from it, it was the other ulama who were denouncing him and his followers as being outside the fold of Islam (see the statement on 15 May 1908, Malfuzat, vol. 10, pp. 376 - 378.)
It was thus clear from his statements right up to his death (on 26 May 1908), as published in the Ahmadiyya newspapers of the time, that his claim was that of being a mujaddid, and not a prophet.
**After Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s death in May 1908, his right-hand man and a highly-learned Islamic scholar, Maulvi Nur-ud-Din, who was greatly respected by Muslims outside the Ahmadiyya Movement as well, was unanimously chosen as the Head of the Movement. However, certain members of the family of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wanted to establish a hereditary succession remaining within the family, but they were not in a position to fulfill their ambitions as yet, especially since Hazrat Mirza’s eldest son, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, who would be the contender, was too young at this time.
Some 3 years later Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his supporters, in order to create a platform for a leadership campaign, began to promote the view that a person could not remain a Muslim by belief in the Kalima Shahada and the prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad only, but had in addition to acknowledge that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet of God.**
The position taken by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was that, just as when the Holy Prophet Muhammad arose, the followers of earlier prophets were required to believe in him in order to become Muslims, similarly with the appearance now of the prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad belief in him must be acknowledged in order for anyone to be a Muslim. And belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it was further asserted, is acknowledged by taking the pledge of entry (bai’at) with the Head of the Ahmadiyya Movement who is the real and true khalifa of all the Muslims. In a book published a little later, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad expressed this doctrine in the following exact words (in English):
“. . . all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah.” (The Truth about the Split, first published 1924; 3rd edition, Rabwah, Pakistan, 1965, pp. 55 - 56.)
“I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims.” (ibid., page 135.)
(For details, select this link.)
Maulana Muhammad Ali and other senior and prominent members of the Ahmadiyya Movement repudiated these notions as being both contrary to basic Islamic teachings as well as against the expressed beliefs of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. The Maulana explains these events in an English tract published shortly afterwards in 1918 as follows:
“M. Mahmud, a son of the founder of the movement, who is the present head of the Qadian section of the community, began to drift away from the basic principles of the Islamic faith about three years after the death of the Promised Messiah, going so far as to declare plainly that the hundreds of millions of Muslims, living in the world, should be no more treated as Muslims. . . . A large number of the educated members of the community, who had the moral courage to dissent openly from the erroneous doctrines taught by him, perceived the great danger to the whole community, when after the death of the late Maulvi Nur-ud-Din a particular clique in the community succeeded in raising M. Mahmud to headship at Qadian without any general consultation. They at once rallied round the true doctrines of the Promised Messiah, and after in vain trying for over a month and a half to keep up the unity of the movement, formed themselves into a separate Society, known as the Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha’at-i-Islam, on 2nd May 1914, which is now earnestly working for the propagation of Islam.” (The Split in the Ahmadiyya Movement, Preface.)
Thus came into being the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, with the following characteristic beliefs:
The Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
Believers in the Holy Prophet Muhammad form a brotherhood, and so long as a person claims membership of the brotherhood of Islam by declaring the words ‘There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah’, he cannot be expelled from Islam or branded as a kafir by any power on earth.
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never claimed to be a prophet, but was a Mujaddid in Islam, like mujaddids that arose in Islam before him, and he was that particular Mujaddid who was the Promised Messiah.
Those Muslims who do not believe in Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad still remain Muslims." The web site can be reached at www.muslim.org/
[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited April 18, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited April 18, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited April 18, 1999).]
Alright Mr Xtreme, I told you that you should make distinction between opinions and facts. What Dr Syed Rashid Ali may be all true, but it was not backed up with any references. I consider statements like, "Person X had multitude of diseases, was a wine drinker, used opium etc.. etc.." and with no supporting statements from reliable sources, to be
*offensive,
*propaganda material and
*not conducive for a good debating environment.
I am not discouraging you to post in this forum, though. I hope you'll understand why I snipped this post. If not, then look at the other one you posted in this forum and Qadeer sahib's post in this thread and try to think why I did not snip those posts.
Thank you.
[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 18, 1999).]
OK Deepblue,
Understood. Thanx for the clarification!
Mr Xtreme
Dear i qadeer,
First of all, i apologize about not being able to start the thread abut mirza sahabs claims and their proof. Being a student, i have to dedicate a major part of my time to my studies. I have been increasing my study hours lately as my examz approach. secondly, i have been seriously ill lately, and because of nervous weakness, headache and postural hypotension, it become very difficult for me to sit and type for a long time. And to add to it, my grandmother has been under intensive care and is suffering from bone-marrow and chest cancer. i have to dedicate a lot of time to her. Therefore i have been unable to regularly contribute to the forum. I am sorry about the delay and will try hard to start my thread as soon as possible.
Now a word about the current thread:
You have quoted an excerpt from someone belonging to the lahori group. I have repeatedly requested my respected fellows to post original essays. Now that i have to reply to this essay, who should i reply to? how can i exactly discuss it with you when you have not written it? If i go in detail about any of the points, you will not be able to follow the discussion because you do not know about the whole issue. So well, in the future, please take a little time to collect facts, plan them up into an essay, and be original, so that you may be able to completely follow the one replying to it. anyway, i'll try to be simple and to-the-point while replying to the essay.
Another thing that i would like to point out is, that there has been a detailed essay on the differences of the lahore movement in the recent past. What exactly was the need to start the discussion once again? This excerpt you posted here was actually not in relation to the original thread at all. This excerpt couldve been very well posted if you had claimed to believe in mirza ghulam ahmed sahab as the mujaddad and imam mehdi. If that were the case, this was a good discussion. However, the very nature of this post was to degrade the ahmedis and misinform the general public to drive them away from ahmediyyat. such things only start when no real koranic or logical discussion can be presented by you. Please note your failure, strictly.
======== Part 1: The status of the mehdi:
"awwhi allaho ila eesa ibne maryama"
( that the promised messiah will be given "wahi" by allah )
this has been narrated in:
1) Muslim, volume 2 page 411
2) mashquaat page 473
For shias,
imam abu jaafar says:
"wa yohiyaa ilaihe fa ya'malu bil wahi be amarillah"
(that imam mehdi will be given "wahi" and he will act upon it)
this has been related in:
1) bahaar ul anwaar volume 13, page 200
2) najmussaqib volume 1, page 66
Please note that prophet mohammad has, in a saying, associated the word "nabiullah" FOUR times, with the promised messiah ( Muslim, volume 2, baab zikre dajaal)
Also, allah informs:
" O Children of Adam! If there should come to you, messengers from among you, relating my signs to you, then whosoever is godfearing, and makes amends- no fear shall be on them, niether shall they sorrow. And those that deny our signs, and wax proud against them- those shall be the inhabitants of fire, therein dwelling forever"
( the koran, chapter 7, the battlements, verse 36 )
Thus there is no doubt whatsoever that the promised messiah HAS TO BE a prophet of allah.
========= Part 2: The claim of Mirza ghulam ahmed of qadian:
The above discussion has made it clear that the promised messiah must be a prophet! So those who believe in Mirza ghulam ahmad of qadian to be the promised imam mehdi must also believe that he is a prophet.
"How can i deny being a prophet and a messenger? why should i negate those names, which Allah has chosen for me? why should i fear someone other than him? I swear upon allah, associating lies to whom belongs to the cursed, He has sent me as the promised messiah. "
( aik ghalti ka azala, page 7,8 )
========= Part 3: The status of the deniers:
As far as the status of the deniers of Mirza ghulam ahmad sahab of qadian is concerned, mirza sahab has repeatedly said that those whom his preachings have reached, and have denied him are answerable to allah. i have posted a reference to his sayings in the related thread. other sayings which could be of interest is:
"Denying me, is not denying me, but denying allah and denying his prophet, prophet mohammad. Because whoever cries lies to me, cries lies to allah! I claim that you would have to leave all the koran from "alhamd" to "wannaas". So think, is it easy to deny me? I dont say on my own, but swear upon the almighty allah, that the truth is, whoso will leave me, and deny me, not from his tongue, but from his actions, deny the koran, and leave allah!"
( malfoozaat volume 4, page 14 )
"Allah has made it evident on me, that every single person whom my preaching has reached, and has not accepted me, will no longer be a muslim, and is answerable to allah"
( tazkera, page 600 )
=========== Part 4: The status of deniers of messiah in sunnis:
Here , it would be interesting to inquire the status of the denier of messiah according to the sunni scholars.
Sunnis beleieve in physical descent of the messiah. Once the messiah comes, some of the people will believe in him, while others will reject him. According to sunni scholars, what will those rejectors be? pious muslims?
please explain the status of those who reject your messiah.
Once you do that, will it not be fair of the Ahmedis to give the same status to those who reject their messiah???
I mean, the real issue is not about the status of those who deny the messiah. The real issue is WHO IS THE MESSIAH! once it is established, the status given to the deniers of the messiah, will automatically be associated to those who deny him!
=========== Part 5: i qadeer in his own trap:
here i will first talk about mr. i qadeer and how shameless he has been to post this article. He himself has been arguing with me, in another thread, that kalima alone is NOT enough for being a muslim! thus if any ahmedi also says the same thing, mr. i qadeer should be HAPPY about it, rather than presenting it as a fault in the ahmadiyya beliefs!!
Even if we suppose that the ahmedis do say that the one who says kalima might still be a kaafir! If ahmedis are wrong about it, then mr. i qadeer is AS WRONG because he himself has been arguing the same thing!!
So i qadeer, you have been caught in your own trap!
If you believe in this article, then you must also believe that kalima alone is enough for a muslim.
there are two cases now:
1) you believe that kalima alone is enough for being a muslim. If you do that, you will lose your only excuse to call the ahmedis, kafir.
2) you do not believe that kalima alone is enough for being a muslim, ALL your above argument will become pointless! and you yourself will be as wrong, according to the your posted essay, as any ahmedi muslim!
This infact speaks of how they have started a campaign to pointlessly try to degrade the ahmediyya community, but this time have badly failed in their attempt!!
=========== Part 6: Why kalima sayers were regarded as kaafir:
It would be suitable for me to answer this question. although the sunni scholars have repeatedly been arguing that "kalima alone is not enough for being a muslim", however, some of the god-fearing readers must be beliving against these so called scholars. SO i feel it necessary to address this question.
As a matter of fact, according to prophet mohammad, "anyone, who calls a kalima sayer, a kaafir, is a kaafir himself". this saying very well tells us, that one some people call other kalima-sayers as kaafirs, they themselves will become kaafir regardless of the fact whether or not they say the kalima themselves!
For a person to be an orthodox non-ahmedi muslim, he must believe that mirza ghulam ahmed and his followers are kaafir. ( this has been also included in the constitution of pakistan ). i repeat, for being an orthodox muslim, one must believe and announce that mirza ghulam ahmad of qadian and all his followers are kaafir!
Please analyze this belief on the basis of the saying of the prophet posted above. and it will become evident how they themselves are making them kaafir!
this has beautifully been explained by mirza sahab:
"So i repeat, it is not easy to deny me. In order to make me a kafir, one would have to be a kafir himself. It would take long to call me faithless and lost, but he would have to believe in his own faithlessness and loss. The one who says i have left koran and hadith, would have to leave koran and hadith himself, and it is just him who would do that. "
( malfoozaat volume 4, page 16 )
========= Part 7: Internal dissent in ahmadiyya belief, and why it is not surprising:
Dear readers with neutral hearts, human beings can never be perfect. wherever there are more than one human beings, there must be more than one opinion! this can no way be related to the truth of falseness of a religion!
please remember the incident which happened exactly after the death of prophet mohammad! did the muslims not immediately divide into two groups? and that too, on who should be the khalifa!! did the mahajreen not argue that the khalifa should be among them? did the ansaar not argue the same? thre was a division! and that happened immediately after prophet mohammad died!!
Can this be given as a proof over falsenss of islam????????
It is evident to all muslims, how there have been killings and quarrels about who should be the khalifa and who shouldnt be one! did the three out of 4 caliphs not get killed?? did the muslim world not devide into to groups, sunni and shia?
can this be given as a proof over falseness of islam???????
Do most of us not know which war did the most muslims die in??? everybody knows, hide it or accept it, the most number of muslims died in a war which took place WITHIN muslims! war for power! war for leadership!!
can this be given as a proof over falseness of islam???????
It must be clearly understood that there are as many opinions, as many interpretations as human beings themselves! no human beings are perfect! thus if our respected sunni scholars have to use the mistakes of human beings to degrade their religion, if the truth of religion is associated to the mistakes of humans, then people will have enough evidence to completely rule out the truth od islam!
if difference of opinions in the followers proves the falsehood of religion, then islam will become the most false religion in the world, because it has 73 sects! jews had 72!
So dear "scholars" please be careful on how you attack those who have opinion different to yours, and be careful, dhyaan rakhain, kaheen aap kay hamlay ultay na purr jaain! if that happens, you people will earn a lot of disrespect and condemnation in the name of islam, as you people have already been doing shamelessly!
==========================================================================================
"Whoso believes in allah, and believes in the truth of prophet mohammad, peace be upon him, for him is it enough, to hear this from my mouth, and accept, and for those are bold, and fear not, what is their solution? Allah will make them understand. so i want you, to fear god, and to analyse this, and advise your friends, that when regarding me, should not be quick in decisions, but with a noble intention, think about it with a neutral mind."
( mirza ghulam ahmed of qadian )
So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)
Jewels
The reason that I did not post any thing original i.e., from my own self has already been explained in a previous post. I do not feel ashamed in admitting lack of complete knowledge in the Qadiani affair. Therefore, any thing I will say from my own will be highly subjective and not based upon the facts. Secondly, as someone who wants to know about your religion, I have not found anything revealing from you as far as the questions I posed in my previous post such as why it was necessary for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be sent as a messiah and what did he achieved in this capacity. I have been keeping a very congenial tone throughout my posts but it seems you are losing it. So far, I have been delibrately trying not to accuse you or your community as "kafirs" as you implied in your previous post. Mr Jewels, I am not here to judge you or give a fatwa like the seven other scholars did in a Pakistani court. I am not denying any of the Ahadith that you have mentioned but rather than asking us to draw far fetched conclusions please explain why tommorow any one like yourself pretending bookish knowledge will not stand up to claim he is the promised messiah. What are the signs for us to seperate the truths from the lies. There has to be a definative way to tell if someone is true in his claim. The only defense you have offered so far is just your interpretation of Quran and even a child knows that Quran can be interpreted umpteen jillion ways. Why must we reject all the other interpretations provided by our scholars and accept yours?. You know it as well, We can argue till cows come home but neither of us will budge an inch from our stated position. Therefore lets not go into Quran. From where did Mirza get the idea that he is imam Mehdi?. Does he have these revelations in the form of a book or were they just spiritual ilhams he received like some of the sufi saints. If so, how can he prove they were of divine nature and not satanic suggestions?. On one hand you claim to prove the ayaats of quran from the science yet on the other you ask us to beleive in your messiah without any clear proofs. Just being of sound mind and having bookish knowledge does not entitle any one to claim prophethood. You admitted there is a split in Ahmadi faith and it should not be a cause of proving that Ahmadis are false. Well if that's the case why the Lahore's Ahmadi group is trying to dispel myths about Ahmdadi beleifs that the Qadiani group is spreading. There are just too many complications and it seems no one has the courage to clear all these confusions.
[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited April 19, 1999).]
Dear i qadeer,
I requested you to wait for some time because of my personal problems. You have scornfully rejected my request and want the essay now. well after 8 hours of non stop work, i finally got to complete the essay. I am starting a new thread
" The messiah has arrived "
Where i have presented the Koranic verses, the hadith, and THE INTERPRETATION OF YOUR OWN ULEMA!!!!
The essay has been made only on quotes, and does not even contain a single word written by me. it ia completely made up of koranic verses, ahadith, and their explanation by sunni, shia and non muslim scholars thereby ending you difficulty as to whose interpretation should be accepted.
So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)
Jewels
Let me first congratulate you upon finally taking a stand to resolve this issue on this forum. I hope you will provide us mere facts and not sidetrack us with your confused reasoning which your so accustomed to do. I see you have very skillfully tried to implicate me in a false argument by presenting to our readers with incomplete facts. To the extent that we had a debate over finality of prophethood, I must agree. But I do not see where I said that mere kalima is not enough to declare someone muslim. Yes it is. And my dear friend the finality of prophethood is implicit in the kalima. But Qadianis distort the meaning of Quranic word "KHATAAM" to serve their interests and everyone knows that Arabic words are extremely meaningful and their meanings can be altered to suit one's objective. If there were more prophets to come after Mohammad(peace be upon him) then the Quran must have predicted their coming. Also, why the traditions are silent on the coming of more prophets. Even Eesa (peace be upon him) will come as a follower of this Ummat. Even for a second if we believe this theory of Imam Mahdi being a nabi as like Mohammad (peace be upon him) and your Mirza sahib being him, what achievements has he to prove that he is the Mahdi. Most of his life was spent trying to prove he was not a fake nabi, and then he died without even accomplishing anything tangible. What to talk about taking the entire kuffar he was not even successful in uprooting English from his own homeland. How many battles did he fought against the kuffar. Did he ever recieve any injuries fighting against the kuffar. All I can see he is talking about grand ideas from his imagination which in today's world many people can do. How come I do not read about any divine aid coming to his rescue while he is busy in Jehad. So he was more special than other prophets in that he did not have to face physical hardships like our beloved Mohammad (peace be upon him) did?. His intellectual jehad is already dying a slow death in forums like these where his followers have no courage to defend his ideas. By the way, its about time we had some quotes from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the way you argue but can we hear the original source telling us what it beleives. If we quote anything about Mirza we are slapped as being unoriginal. We would like Mirza's perspective on things such as Quran, finality of prophethood, Hadith, and if possible Mirza in his own words.
[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited April 20, 1999).]