An Interview With
Sheikh Ahmed Deedat
- Nida`ul Islam: What would you say to the Muslims, particularly the Muslim Imams who object to a Muslim having a debate with a Christian?
Very easy, very easy, this means that they are ignorant of their history, poor people. Our Nabi Kareem (s.a.w.) had a debate with Christians. They are ignorant, it is a Su ah of the Prophet, the Christians came from Najran, for three days and three nights, they had their debate in the Masjidu Nabawi. Do they know that? Let them go and check up.
Nida`ul Islam:What is your opinion of the Muslims who put the people of the Christian West on a pedestal and put down their own?
Well this is against the teaching of the Qur’an, it says Don’t obey the Kafir, Allah says, don’t give in to the Kafir, you must be stern with the Kafir, that is what Allah says, and you put them on the top, the Hadith says, if you behave like them, you will be raised up with them on the Day of Judgment.
Nida`ul Islam: From your vast experience which is close to half a century now, do you see anything which a Christian can give a Muslim?
In what field? Technology learn from him. Mathematics, learn from him, space science learn from him. But he can teach you nothing about Deen, there is nothing you can learn from him about religion.
Nida`ul Islam: Do you have a solution to the onslaught of media propaganda directed at Islam and Muslims by the whole world, especially the Zionists in the USA?
I do not know, how Muslims can compete with them, I don’t know, the people who work in that field, they can give you a better answer. The people who work in the media, in the TV, in the newsprint, how can you counteract, I don’t know, I can only tell you how to do battle. How to counter news media and TV, if I tell you, you must have your own TV station, you say how, radio station, how? Where? Who? Where are you going to get the money from? It is not my field. You can ask the guys who work in this field.
Nida`ul Islam: You have mentioned in your lectures that the Muslims of South Africa are people of high virtues. Why is that do you think?
I think so because we had contact with our motherland far more than the people elsewhere. The people in the Fiji Islands, they originate from India, in the Caribbean, they originate from India. The Malays of the cape originate from Indonesia and Malaysia, no contact, but we had a constant contact with our motherland, and we kept on getting our Alims from our motherland to look after our people religiously, so there was a constant contact. So we Indian Muslims in South Africa, we are sending more Hujjis for Hujj than many Arab countries on a percentage basis compared to our population, we send more Tablighis to the Tablighi Jama’at than Pakistan on a percentage basis compared to our population. There are more Muslims who keep beards in South Africa on a percentage basis than Muslims anywhere else in the world. So we abstain from pig more strictly, our meat is all Halal, in South Africa, we are less than two percent, but every sheep and cow that is slaughtered in the major cities of Durban, Joha esburg, or Cape Town is made Halal because of us. 85% of all chicken in the country is made Halal because of two percent of the population. The Muslims that you see in the Masjid, 95 to 99% have something on their heads when they go to the Masjid for Salat. This is how we were brought up, so we are strict and good Muslims, but we didn’t do Da’wa, and that is our drawback.
Nida`ul Islam: Do you feel that there is a worldwide Muslim revival?
Yes, I can see that all around me especially our sisters, especially in Australia, they are phenomenal, they are phenomenal, unbelievable, in the classes I’ve had for men and women, the women are tops, they are superior to the average man, I don’t know how it happens, that is my experience with them. So if we encourage them, Insha Allah they will be good.
Nida`ul Islam: What is your response towards Christians as well as Muslims, who accuse you of “Christian bashing”?
This is the nature of things, truth and falsehood, people don’t know that every prophet of God, when he delivered his message, he created a reaction. Allah Tabaraka Wata’ala tells us that Hazrat Ibrahim (a.s.) is an example for you, he is a model for you, he is the flagship of Islam, he is the vanguard of Islam, monotheism, and unity of God, this is Ayah no. 120 of Surah An-Nahl, everybody starts with Aya no 125, “invite to the Way of Your Lord with Wisdom, and fair Exhortation”, nobody starts with Aya 120. If you start with Aya 120, you see Allah is telling you, Ibrahim is an example for you.
In verse 123 Allah says, “then We revealed unto you to follow the way of Ibrahim, true to faith,” you follow him. Allah is telling our Rasul, follow him, Ibrahim, did he follow him or not, what do you think, heh, he is the living Qur’an, our Rasul Kareem, Sallalahu 'alayhi wasallam. Allah says follow him, did he follow him or not. What was the result? The Sahaba made two migrations to Abysinia. Why? Did he not know “invite to the Way of Your Lord with Wisdom.” No, no, that is the guy when you are talking, he says: “Deedat creates a reaction.”
Ibrahim (a.s.), did he know “invite to the Way of Your Lord with Wisdom.” How did he speak to his father? What was the response? What was the reaction? Why? He didn’t know how to talk, I want to know do you know how to talk? Show me, show me I want you to talk to the Christians? Talk to the Hindus, common. You know, you ca ot stomach somebody doing the job, you now show me, you are building, I am laying bricks, I must do it nicely, what do you mean nicely, use wisdom, what is wisdom, you say you take this brick, you put it this way, you take this mortar, you put it this way, you take the leveler, you must do this, show me how to do the job. Da’wa, show me, you show me, and give me an example.
You tell me that Sheikh so and so, he is an example for you. I’ll call him, show me, have you got one, have you got one in your country who can give an example how to talk with the Christian, have you got one in your Lebanon, in your Saudi Arabia, or in UAE, anywhere.
You know I am talking to the Arab, a professor of Arabic in Abu Dhabi, the Arab comes and tells me in Abu Dhabi, he says, Deedat, how did you learn to speak Arabic? I didn’t want to tell him, I said, I don’t, its true, I can’t speak Arabic, I can give you samples from a dozen different languages, that are important for me to do Da’wa, I learnt Swahili, French, Indonesian, Malaysian, Zulu, Spanish, I can talk for doing Da’wa. He says why don’t you talk Arabic, as if I hate it, as if I don’t want to talk, there is a lengthy explanation. You know the Muslims are over ninety percent non-Arabs. We all read the Qur’an, but nobody understands Arabic. That is the System, the wrong system as we know it.
Indonesians they read the Qur’an, they don’t know Arabic, Malaysians, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nigerians, Ghanaians, everywhere Muslims are reading the Qur’an without understanding, I want an explanation, why? I said, you know me, I have chosen the wrong job, I am a lorry driver, a van driver, working for a firm, now I am talking about religion. It is the wrong job I have taken, this is your job, I am telling the Arab, Allah says, we have revealed the book in your language, whose language, yours, you Saudi, you Lebanese, you Abu Dahbian, in your language, not in the language of the Hindi nor the Indonesian. What for? To give glad tidings of the God fearing.
So I am asking this professor of Arabic from Abu Dhabi, how many mosques do you have in your country, he says one thousand, every mosque must have an Imam, I said who are they talking to? To whom? To give good news to the Muttaqi, who is the Muttaqi, the guy who goes to the Masjid, he goes to the Masjid, he is giving them the good news, Allah will give you Ja atul Firdaus, he is giving you the good news, he is doing his job. But Allah doesn’t stop there. He says: “and to warn a people ‘Ludda’”. I am asking, you are a professor of Arabic, now tell me, who are people ‘Ludda’. You Arabs, it is in your language, and Allah says: "To warn with it, a people Ludda, give me, give me, who are people Ludda. Common, you know Arabic man, who are people Ludda, it is your language, I want you to tell me.
If unbelievers are people Ludda, is there one out of the thousand who is talking to the people Ludda. You have a thousand Imams, they are talking to the muttaqy, talking to who, to you, I want to know, if you say Jew, I want to know, have you been talking to the Jew. Show me one out of those one thousand Masjids who is talking to the Jew. If they are Christians, I want to know, is there one out of those one thousand Imams out there who is talking to the Christians.. Is there, then what is wrong with you, it is in your language. Allah is telling you, to warn with it people who are Ludda.
I said, I will tell you who are people Ludda. If I say you, and the meeting is over, you will say that I called you people Ludda. This is how you misunderstand me. You will go and tell everybody that this Deedat person is calling Lebanese people Ludda. You are my friends, you love me, and you are spreading this. Because you misunderstood, this is how things spread, you say Deedat said this, Deedat said that. What did I say, you misunderstood and you start screaming. I didn’t say that, I said I’ll tell you who they are. You see this is Aya number 97 of Sura Mariam, sura Maryam has 98 verses, I say you go back eight verses, before 97, and Allah is telling you: “And they say, the Most Merciful has betaken a son. You have indeed brought something abominable.”
What will you do to me now? But if I swear at your mother. You will say not one more word uncle, I am going to lose all the respect I have for you. Don’t talk about my mother, don’t talk about my wife. Call me what you like, call me monkey, call me donkey, what you like you call me, but don’t take my mother’s name, am I right?
So Allah says, the worst swearing you can make against Me is to say that I begot a son. It is the most abominable assertion that one can make. From such swearing, the heavens are ready to burst, and the earth to split asunder, and the mountains fall down in utter ruin that they should say that the Most Merciful God took a son.
If you want to swear against Allah, the worst swearing, this is it. To even call his son begotten, in English it means to have sex and produce, which means that he had sex with Mary, he committed adultery with Mary and produced an illegitimate child Jesus. That is what they are saying, that Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten not made. Not like Adam, Adam was made by Allah Every dog and donkey was made by Allah, but this one, begotten not made. I can call you my son, you won’t mind, would you fight me for that, if your father hears it, he won’t mind, if your mother hears it she won’t mind, I say my son, one day I come to your house, and I say where is Akram my son, I see your mother, and I say where is Akram my son, my son Akram where is he? They say he has gone out, he is coming, and you come and we embrace. So my companion, he does not know our relationship, he is asking, is he really your son? I say no, he isn’t, but he loves me like a father, like a grand father, so I call him my son, it is nothing. But if I said yes, he is my begotten son, you know the meaning changes, you know what I am saying now. I am telling my friend that he is a bastard. Your mother was bluffing you, you are a child of adultery. I am saying that your father is not your father, I am your father, now you understand that I am swearing at you. You say uncle what do you mean, what do you mean, I am your begotten son? Begotten means that I had sex and produced you, so I get caught out. But instead if I say, doesn’t he look like my Yusuf, what am I saying, that you are a bastard. That is what they are saying about Jesus, he is the only begotten son.
Sex and production, not like Adam, and you laugh, is it a joke? Allah says if the heavens had feelings like you the heavens would burst. If the earth had feelings like you it would split, if the mountains had feelings like you, they would crumble to pieces, and you say you love Allah more than anything else. You love Allah more than your mother and father, more than your wife or your daughter. No, and they swear at Allah and what do you do, it is a joke, and you laugh, this is Qawman Ludda. The most contentious of people, they come and knock at your door, and drink your tea and eat your cake, and they are telling you that you are going to go to hell. Because you haven’t got salvation, who died for your sins. Jesus Christ who died for my sins, and Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten not made. No response, in Egypt what do you say? In Lebanon, what do you tell the Christians? You mind your own business.
What have you been doing for one thousand four hundred years, you have been living in Lebanon. You have been the masters of Lebanon for fourteen hundred years. For these few years, the French put the Christians on top of you, but for 1400 years, you have been the masters over Lebanon. You were the masters of Egypt for 1400 years, what did you do?, what did you do? When they were swearing at Allah, what did you do? Did you talk to them, now you want to know how Deedat does the job, Deedat stirs friction and creates reaction, you are not doing your job. Your Shaykhs and Imams, they are not doing their jobs. If you do the job, you are going to create a reaction.
You are good people, the Lebanese are very good, the Palestinian Muslims are very good, the Indonesians are very good, you are very good, the Egyptian Muslims are very good. You show me a bad Muslim who is attacking the Jews or the Christians, or the Hindus, show me one. Common, 'common, show me one. So you find fault with me, the Christian I don’t blame him, I am the most dangerous guy for him, he knows that, he may say I am bashing him or swearing at him, if he breaks my jaw, he is entitled to. But you have no right to point the finger at me, the Muslim, you have no right, you bloody hypocrite, you have no right, you read the Qur’an in Arabic, you understand. Allah is telling you: “O people of the book do not go to extremes in your religion.” Is that what you are telling the Christians, are you? Where in Egypt, where in Saudi Arabia, are you telling them. Are you telling the Christians, Allah says: “And do not say three.” Are you telling them that, you have customers there, you Arab Muslims, you have customers there, you do not have to learn another language, are you telling them not to say that.
What kind of Muslims are you, why are you not telling them “And do not say three”. It is not because of money, you have lost the art, because you are satisfied, you say Insha Allah we will go to Ja a, you pray, you fast, you don’t eat the pig, you don’t drink alcohol, you don’t gamble, you don’t dance with other people’s daughters, Insha Allah you will go to Huj and Umrah, Insha Allah, you will go to Ja a. Everybody is satisfied, you are going to go to Ja a Insha Allah, that other guy, he is going to go to hell, he is saying that Allah is begetting a son, he believes in the trinity, he is going to Jaha am, but you don’t blink an eye to save him, what do you say.
They were all Christian lands, the whole of Lebanon, Egypt, and North Africa were Christian, to them you are an apostate, so they hate you more. They ca ot forget that. The same with me, if my son was to become an apostate, I would not forgive. If you are a Jew, I say welcome, if you are a Christian I say welcome, if you are a Hindi I say welcome. But if my son becomes a murtad, I would hate it, to the Arab Christian you were once belonging to him, he ca ot forgive you, because you have become a Muslim, that hurts them more.
So the Arab Christian hates you most, because once in your history you were Christian, if the Muslim had not come, you would have remained Christian. It hurts them more than if the Italians came and ruled them. He says you bastard, you were my own children, and now you are telling me that I am going to go to hell, you are on the wrong track. So he hates you more, the Arab Christian I can understand them. His anger and his hatred, I can understand, the same as my son, if I lose him, it would hurt me more, but what have you done, in 1400 years what have you done. The Jews came and lived with you, what have you done? Everytime a Christian persecuted Jews, what have you done? Every Easter, the Christians say these are Jews, these are Christ killers, they killed our God, so they kill their men, rape their women, burn their homes and they ran. Where did they go, to Muslim land, to Arab land, what did the Arab say? Welcome, and one thousand years you could not convert a thousand Jewish families to Islam. The guy comes hungry and naked, you gave them food and shelter, you gave them that, alhamdulillah, you say these are the followers of Hadrat Moosa Alayhissalam, and Hazrat Ibrahim Alayhissalam, welcome, and one thousand years you could not convert a thousand Jewish families to Islam. True or false?
Allah says that He has given you a religion to prevail it over all other religion. Where, where? In a thousand years you could not convert 1000 Jewish families to Islam, 800 years you have ruled Spain, after 800 years you were kicked out, after 800 years, there was not one guy left to say the Azan, that is how good you were. Come, come, answer me now, you Arabs? I want you to answer me now, after 800 years, there is not one guy left who can say the Azan, come, answer me, true or false? What did you do, for 800 years, you mated with the Spanish women, you had bastard children, for 800 years you enjoyed the Spanish women, you know that. That is the stamp you left on them, the stamp is still on them, he looks like that, his music sounds like Arabic, language also, the way he starts a sentence he starts with an exclamation, and he ends with an exclamation, different to all western language.
Nida`ul Islam: Do you blame the Muslims or the leaders.
The leaders, you put them there, if you get a bastard, that is what you deserve, because you put him there. If you are satisfied with what the guy is dishing out to you, that is what you deserve. Don’t blame them, you are responsible, you say that you blame Hosny Mubarak, who put him there, damn it why are you blaming Hosny Mubarak, it is your fault, Benazir Bhutto, we the Pakistanis, we put her there, so what are you crying about. Who voted for her, the angels, or the Americans came and voted for her. Who voted for her, who voted for her, who voted for Mubarak, who voted for King Hussein of Jordan, or Hasan of Morocco, who? who? Gaddafi of Libya, who voted for them? The Americans, then who? You get what you deserve, you are the guys responsible.
A 1000 years you had a chance to convert the Jews, you didn’t do it, a 1000 years you had with the Christians living with you in Lebanon, you did not convert them, so the French came along and made them your masters. A 1000 years, you didn’t do the job. A 1000 years, they are telling you, Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten not made, and you kept on laughing, a bloody joke for you. You are living with them, every Muslim is responsible, every Muslim is responsible, don’t blame the leaders, for 1400 years, was there somebody there like Mubarak or Sadat or Naser, for 1400 years, don’t blame somebody like Mubarak or Sadat or Naser, that is today, but for fourteen hundred years, did they stop you from talking to the Christians. The Turks, did they tell you, don’t talk to the Christians, did they?
What did you do for 1400 years, so you pay for it? You are paying for it, still today you don’t want to do, now you are stopping the people. That is Mubarak that is his philosophy, that is Soeharto, that is his philosophy. But for 1400 years you were ruling masters, you did not do the job then, we ruled India for 1000 years, what did you do then, you had a Jolly good time, we Muslims in Spain, we had a jolly good time, so that is the punishment we are getting, we didn’t do the job you pay the price, now your children pay the price. The answer is in the Qur’an, you are reading the Qur’an in your language. And Allah is telling you, tell them O people of the book, do not go to extremes in your religion, and He is telling you do not say three, do you say three in your Masjid, father son and holy ghost, Allah is telling you, do not say three, go and tell them, don’t say three, talk to them. Are you telling them? So now you don’t like me, because Deedat is attacking you.
The worst guy in the whole world in sight of the Christian is me, in the eyes of the Jews or Hindus is me, now in the eyes of the Muslims, they say this guy is causing trouble, so I come, on Friday, I want to arrange a meeting on good Friday, Alhamdulillah, the Muslims are strong here, otherwise the Muslims would have spat me out, you know that? They would say uncle, don’t upset them, you know we are having a good time here. These Australian girls, and we have good jobs, and we get the Dole here too, it is far better, we are in heaven here compared to Lebanon, please don’t disturb the apple cart, Mr Deedat, go back to South Africa. They need you more than us, leave us alone.
Nida`ul Islam: You must have met with many reverts to Islam from Christianity. What do these reverts say about their previous experiences with Christianity?
They say they found no satisfaction, so they accepted Islam, we say welcome.
Nida`ul Islam: We heard that you challenged the pope to a debate, what was the outcome?
No I didn’t challenge him to debate, you see the pope, he says, we must have a dialogue with Muslims, “we” meaning the Catholic Church, when he was in Turkey same pronouncement, when he went to Nigeria same pronouncement, when he went to Kenya same pronouncement, when he went to Senegal, same pronouncement, we must have a dialogue with the Muslims. So I was waiting for some Arabs to go along and have a dialogue with him, or some Pakistani Alim, nobody came, I wrote to him, I said your holiness you are talking about having a dialogue, I am prepared to have a dialogue with you in the Vatican, you tell me when and I will come along, it is just a hoax. He is trying to bluff the people by ‘dialogue’. Actually he is telling his people, don’t convert to Islam, he uses the word dialogue. If he used the word convert, then you would start getting a shock when the Christian missionary comes, those catholic priests with the dog collar, you are going to chase them away, you would say you are going to try and convert my child. But if he says dialogue, you ca ot say no, because the Qur’an says: “O people of the book come.” Talk to them, Allah is telling you go and talk to them, and he is talking about dialogue. You cannot say no.
Nida`ul Islam: What would be your advice to the reader and Muslims in Australia in general?
Familiarize yourself with your Deen , go to the Qur’an you Arab go to the Qur’an, see what Allah is telling you and try to see if you can live by that.
*[This article was published in the 13th issue of Nida’ul Islam magazine (http://www.islam.org.au), May - June 1996]
Interview conducted by Keysar Trad *
V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**