Dude,
No offence taken.
India never wanted one inch of Pak territory. After 1965 and 71 we gave back all territory that we captured on the West side.
Even your Retd. Air Marshal Asghar Khan says that all wars were started by Pak. We were only hitting back.
In Kargil, Indian troops did not cross LoC despite heavy loss of life.
We don’t want PoK/Northern Areas.
Just leave us alone.
"1948- Kashmir. True enough the Valley was lost, but if Pakistan lost, what explains Azad Kashmir & Northern Areas?
It was Kashmir when Pakistan took over NA and POK and not from India. India only started repulsing this attack after Kashmir acceded to India. So brave Pakistani soldiers (Oops it was only tribals) were actually taking over its own so-called muslim brethrens by force and looting and only stopped after India got involved. History repeated again in Bangladesh, but thankfully this time Pakistan was brave enough to admit it was not people in salwar-kameez but soldiers because they got registered in the Guiness Book of World Records."
Major non-sequiter fallacies there. Bangladesh should not even be brought in to the 1948 war. I agree with what you said about the tribals but I was referring to the Pakistani military involvement along with the AJK ad-hoc military units. This was when the Indian military had landed (Oops what am I saying? Patiala and Punjab regiments were there long before), and were vigorously pursuing the tribals. It was the regular Pakistani military and AJK forces that held the present day Pakistani Kashmir. Also even Indian history sources say that the accession of Kashmir occurred AFTER the tribals had begun the invasion. I have no problems accepting facts but your blatant attempts to revise history are simply not believable.
"1965- Again botched Kashmir uprising. Lahore and the plains of Punjab ready to be overrun by the unmatched Indian military prowess. Result: The military held on to the territorial integrity of Pakistan. Not to forget the Rann of Kutch/Sir Creek skirmishes, which ended with international involvement (We all know why India has soured on Intenational involvement in Kashmir).
Pakistan always attack first and India was only trying to divide your forces from Kashmir."
Yes, what is your point? Still takes a wierd combination of guts and confidence to take on a neighbor atleast 3X larger in military terms.
"1971- Bangladesh war. Major losses for Pakistan.
Real truth, it hurts, aint it."
No it doesn’t. Bangladesh is a reality, they wanted it, they got it.
"Let’s analyze this fact first: the population of E.Pakistan had already turned against the Pakistanis.
Pakistan say the same for Kashmir"
Yes. All is well in Kashmir? Are you still blinded by the reality that the people of Kashmir (Muslims) are not happy under Indian? Do you deny the Shutdowns, Protests etc., in parts of Kashmir? Remember I am talking about KASHMIR only, so don’t bring up the situation in Pakistan or give out some answers that have nothing to do with Kashmir.
"I want ANY Indian (or whomever) tell me their plan to hold on to the part of the country that is surrounded in 3 sides with a hostile neighbor, the local population in open rebellion,
Pakistan claim the same for Kashmir, which is sandwitched between Pakistan and China (close allies, as most of you claim)."
Your right. What do you call the 1965 war? That was Pakistan’s attempt to take Kashmir. It failed, because India then attacked Pakistan. In 1971 the situation was reveresed and Pakistan foolishly opened up the western front. One thing you fail to see is the disparities in military terms. If Pakistan and India were on the same level in military terms, 1965 would have been the end of Kashmir as an Indian state. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS: the only reason Pakistan has not been able to do the same thing in Kashmir as India did in Bangladesh is the difference in the size of the military. I thought that would be known to you but here again I find myself repeating.
"Kargil: Now I don’t consider Kargil a war because it was a localized conflict with much of the Pakistani military not involved. NLI and Gilgit Scouts are paramilitary units.
Why was Pak military was not involved when it was an all out their plan. Must be brave soldiers."
Do you know what PARAmilitary means? I think at this point your just making insane statements just for the sake of wasting time. NLI and Gilgit Scouts are part of the military that is familiar with that region of Kashmir. Yes they (Pakistani Military) were brave.
"Although I’m sure many Indians would love to call it a vijay, however don’t forget that it was our traitor PM who was responsible for the pull back.
In Pakistan Army rules and ruled. Musharraf, had he wanted, could have overthrown Nawaz then and there, had he been confident. But, he agreed to what Nawaz said. Why do Pakistani take pleasure in blaming Nawaz for everything. Kargil was military’s baby."
I blame Nawaz for the MANNER he called for the pullback, some might say he pulled a ‘Shastri’
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
"Although I don’t even know what the purpose of Kargil was? If you cut off Laddakh and put pressure on Sri Nagar, you better believe that Indians will respond in the Poonch-Muzzaferabad and Jammu-Sialkot axes. You cannot win Kashmir by military action, it is a foolish assumption to believe that if Pakistan engages in a limited war in Kashmir, the international border will not be crossed by India. Learn from the mistakes of 1965, is getting Kashmir worth losing Lahore Sialkot, Kasur, and Sindh combined?
I agree with you. Dot on the spot. It is really not worth fighting over a political/territorial dispute now-a-days, cos nobody wins. It has to be sorted out in some other way and infiltration in disguise is surely not one of them."
Wow we do agree! I suspect that you and I agree for different reasons though. You agree with me because you still want to illegally hold onto Kashmir, while I believe in a strong Pakistan both economically and militaristically. Be assured that Kashmir will forever be a thorn on YOUR (Indian) side. I think that fighting a war over Kashmir will hurt Pakistan more than India, so it would be foolish to talk about it.
The eyelids of a Rajputs eyes are lowered only in death.
Talwar, i never said i was superior. Thats they Indian mentality… Ii simply give credit where its due. I have no problem in admiting the good in your country. Cant say the same for your people about mine. And by the way, we dont want your land, we just want our Kashmir
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
You people are occupying it, thus we are simply defending ourselves, and from the looks of it, we are doing a rather good job of it.
[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited April 16, 2002).]
I never claimed Indians were superior.
**
Good thought, if credit is based on facts.
**
I have no problem with accepting the good in yours.
**
Sorry bud. Kashmir is disputed and we own a part of it. You guys agreed in Shimla not to use force to resolve it but are trying again and again to use force. And doing a rather poor job at it, from what I see.
You guys do imply you are superior, your attitude is horrible and does not in any way promote peace…
Our govt agreed to simla because we we lost bangladesh war. We were forced to cede a portion of Kashmir to the enemy. The fact is that you guys are and occupying force, holding millions of people hostage who dont even recognize you as their govt. Once you leave Kashmir and let us exist as a nation, all is fine and forgiven. Oh and the fact speak fro themselves… If you read the article up there you will see that your air force sucks ass, while Pak air force kicked ass. Just admit our airforce screwed you guys over in 1965 and its all good.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited April 17, 2002).]
1965 was a war of nonsense. Some facts are never given much attention.
By the time a cease fire was declared Pakistan had consumed 80% of its arsenal reserves. A three day continuation of war could ransack Pakistan. Ayub was already frustrated; China had turned its back. There was no alternative. India still had good arsenal reserved.
Our PM Shashtri was not kept informed of all facts of war. And no doubt there was no cooperation among Indian forces, and no coordination between Generals and the political leadership.
By the time ceasefire was declared casualties on both the side were near about same, and were near about in equal possession of captured land.
Nothing wrong Pakistan being a smaller country considers it a victory.
By 1971 the picture had changed. All repair work was done. Past mistakes were taken care of. The war ended and we had to accommodate 93000 thousand of Pak soldiers.
In 1965 India did not give a fight in Eastern sector. We did not want to offend Bengalis. Hence, to dismantle Pakistan was very much there in our plan, any time in near future. And we did it.
Hmm. Sending armed jehadis across LoC and bombing parliaments does not promote peace either.
**
Part of Kashmir has always been with us since the British left. The jehad started in 1989 and then you guys took over the training and supply.
**
[/quote]
Oh and the fact speak fro themselves… If you read the article up there you will see that your air force sucks ass, while Pak air force kicked ass. Just admit our airforce screwed you guys over in 1965 and its all good.**
[/QUOTE]
Dude, the article critiques the IAF and its lack of communication with the Army, but nowhere it says, PAF kicked ass. Leave that to chamchas like Fricker
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
.
Read the article by Air Marshal(Retd.) Asghar Khan where he says that Pak wanted a ceasefire in 1965 very soon after the war began. Someone posted the article but the post was deleted.
This one might go too, so read it while this lasts.
india has just to maintain status quo
no need to prove better than pakistan.
pakistan can invest in army but india has to invest in infrastructure and education.
Anand,
I agree that 1965 ultimately became non-sense when Ayub Khan hurriedly signed the ceasefire in Tashkent. Your PM Lal Bahadur Shastri, died of happiness, he never realized that stupid, General, would return all the lands won in 1965 without any bargaining. I do not know about your age but I was kid in 1965 war and I know that whole nation including Bengalis became one to fight with India. It was a golden chance for Pakistan to win Kashmir or there would be no Pakistan. But stupid general started the war without any strategy, without o.kayed by Uncle Sam, mobilized the masses to fight till death, and betrayed the whole nation. This ultimately led to breakup of the country in 1971. People who fought gallantly, in 1965 war and gave their lives, went down the drain.
It is always our military leaders who laid down the whole nation by reversing their actions and as usual Indians get the credit for that.
Sincerely,
FARID
i am not interested in bringing some un wanted materials and show them as substantiative facts.
in 1948,pakistan gained pak occupied kashmir only because of the peverted indian statesmanship.it was Jawaharlal nehru who ordered indian army to call cease fire and act according to international manners and calls for peace betwen both india and pakistan,despite patel`s and others pleas not to call for a cease fire untill the whole kashmir falls in indian hands. as a result of it kashmir lost a great deal of part of it to pakistan and now it has become a fertile and safe ground for pakistan and kashmir terrorists to carry out their subversive acts in kashmir and other parts of india.
many still belive that india could have engaged in a bargain with pakistan on the pak terrirotries it had captured in 1971 war.but indian ladership and policy amkers were in efforts to celebrate their triump against pakistan and as a result of that india lost a golden chance to retain pak occupied kashmir.
pak forces had displayed a great valour in 1965 and they could inflict huge casualities on the indian side.but damages on the pakistani side can not be forgotten at any case. in the eves of the war indian war planes had even bombarded peshwar and attacked officers mess in peshwar.
The 65 war began indirectly due to the Operation Gibraltar in Kashmir, but the Pakistani army resisted the Indian invasion of Lahore with great valor… They were heroes.
Naashta karne aye the Gymkhana me? Pak army ne poora dinner karwa kar wapis bhej diya.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
It was not China who turned their backs on us, it was the US, so some ppl should get their facts right.
spock there was no defense treaty between
pakistan and anyother power for mutual assitance in case of war. so no body has the obligation to help pakistan. same is true
with india.
** Please stick to the topic of this thread.**
[This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited April 18, 2002).]
pakitan got most of the muslim makority area
even it got some part of kashmir so be happy
what you got . you cant get evertyhing you want and it is not worth spending money to recover it by force. by technical definition
all the areas whereever muslims live it shoud go to pakistan how the indian muslims are different from kashmiri muslims?
how indian muslim can be abandoned while
kashmiri muslims can join pakistan?
Please stick to the topic of this thread.
[This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited April 18, 2002).]
indian army had great moments in Lahore but unfortunately in that course indians had suffered casualities mainly by the misfirings and misbombings on their own forces.it is pointed out that the communication system indians had was very poor .india made a good progress in that later and successfully applied it in 1971 war.
now somebody is saying pak army had some winning moments on indian forces in Lahore..
Sadas,
Sadas,
I think your analysis is not correct. Pakistan was involved in proxy war in Kashmir before September 17, 1965. Your then PM, Lal Bahadur Shastri, was loosing this proxy war. Had he waited for sometime, Kashmir would have been in Pakistan’s hands. The only way he thought would stop Pakistan was to start a full war with Pakistan and draw its attention from Kashmir to all over Indian/Pakistan border. He started the offense from Wagha Sector where whole battalion was sent at the border of Lahore. In face when some of your military officers entered Lahore, they were surprised to see no resistance. They thought it might be a booby trap so the ran back to their side and started war with heavy artillery. Had they not gone back from Lahore perhaps, your army would have cut off Lahore from the rest of the country? They were paid heavily for their mistake. In 24 hours Pakistani army was mobilized and faced Indian army at the border.
It was Major Raja Aziz Bhatti who defended and resisted the onslaught of heavy Indian bombardment. He fought 72 hours without food and water and he stood up there until he was alive. He was hit again and again with shells and his body pieces were removed until he collapsed to death. That one brave man saved Lahore and stood like a sold rock before Indian army many times larger than his. By that time more soldiers were withdrawn from Kashmir and deputed on Pakistani and Indian Border. The strategy by Indian PM worked and thus Kashmir was saved.
Sincerely,
FARID
This was indeed an impressive article. Its true that the real facts surrounding any major event are not allowed to surface until years afterwards. Truth is often the first casuality in the face of national pride and perhaps that is why people from both sides of the border are fed a whole lot of exagerrated claims in schools about these wars.
Amongst all the bickering above, I just want to ask a simple question, which probably has no clear answer. I had read that about Operation Giberaltor in Kashmir. And I read that Indian military decided to start the war and launched an attack on the Lahore border. This attack was repulsed and the next 22 days saw fairly scattered war, where Pakistan, despite being such a small country with such small arsenal, pounded Indian on many fronts.
Question is, was it India which started the 1965 war by launching an attack on B-R-B Canal/Lahore border, on the night of 6th September, 1965? Or was it Pakistan which started the war by launching an attack on India?
[quote]
Originally posted by Farid:
**Sadas,
Sadas,
I think your analysis is not correct. Pakistan was involved in proxy war in Kashmir before September 17, 1965. Your then PM, Lal Bahadur Shastri, was loosing this proxy war. Had he waited for sometime, Kashmir would have been in Pakistan’s hands. The only way he thought would stop Pakistan was to start a full war with Pakistan and draw its attention from Kashmir to all over Indian/Pakistan border. He started the offense from Wagha Sector where whole battalion was sent at the border of Lahore. In face when some of your military officers entered Lahore, they were surprised to see no resistance. They thought it might be a booby trap so the ran back to their side and started war with heavy artillery. Had they not gone back from Lahore perhaps, your army would have cut off Lahore from the rest of the country? They were paid heavily for their mistake. In 24 hours Pakistani army was mobilized and faced Indian army at the border.
It was Major Raja Aziz Bhatti who defended and resisted the onslaught of heavy Indian bombardment. He fought 72 hours without food and water and he stood up there until he was alive. He was hit again and again with shells and his body pieces were removed until he collapsed to death. That one brave man saved Lahore and stood like a sold rock before Indian army many times larger than his. By that time more soldiers were withdrawn from Kashmir and deputed on Pakistani and Indian Border. The strategy by Indian PM worked and thus Kashmir was saved.
Sincerely,
FARID**
[/quote]
Farid,the whole world knows that pakistan hadbeen engaged in proxy war in kashmir before 65 war.pakistan's first misventure to capture kashmir was seeking the help from pashtoon tribals lead by Gem.Hayyath Khan in 1948.
before 1965 war pak backed mercanaries sneaked in to kashmir and they started inciting problems in the valley.indian army met with them and they were thrown out of kashmir once again as it did in 1948.but there were tensions prevailing on the border.pakistani troop formation and its manoevour was indeed intended to enter srinagar by capturing pathankott.but indian army leadership lead by Mr.Choudhary could well forsee pakistans game plans and they started a counter attack on pakistani troops.thus indian army could effectively block pakistani armys venture to sieze kashmir.
as i said in another thread indian armys communication system was a very poor one and as a resultof that it had to pay a very big price.
As u mentioned abt Aziz Raja Bhatti,india side had also numerous army leaders and soldiers who sacrificed their lives for the integrity and sovergnity of the india and its integral part kashmirrom terrorists and enemy army in 1965 war.onesuch example is Lt.Abdul Rehman Kharia who laid down his life fighting pak armyfor 48 hours with out even having ammunition reserviours.hekilled numerous pak soldiers ,destroyed tanks and defended them .Another example is Joseph Mthew ,hailed from my state who defended a military hospital and finally had to lay down hislife for a great cause.............
i agre that neither side had won in that war though indians celebrate it as a victory and so pakistanis .but the decisive war camein 1971 and the result has the impact still on both sides.
regards
sadas
Sadas,
My knowledge is based on events which I felt as a kid and which were reported in Pakistani press during the war. I can still imagine the mood of Pakistanis during that time. The emotions during that war may be based on false premise as you said.
It is unfortunate that right from beginning it has been attitude of the military generals in Pakistan to misguide and publish false information through media for the general public. This untruthfulness in Pakistani military dictatorship continued till this day. There are elements in media and in public they always up-held the military leadership even at the cost of whole nation. What Musharraf is doing, some people on this forum blindly accepting his decisions. By the time impact of those decisions would be felt, he would have already gone under tons of earth like his predecessors. And there would be another general justifying his actions condemning past and blowing the tune of prosperity. This untruthful state of affairs would up-hold by media and you have already seen some ‘Temporary Chamchaas’ singing the same tune in this forum.
I would be reluctant to accept Indian version of 1965 war because of exaggerations, supported by false information particularly to Indian public to show that Indians were great and Pakistanis were as usual terrorists.
Sincerely,
FARID