an indian embracing christanity

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

i have a friend who embraced christianity a yr ago.

i had a few discussions with him about his faith and what led him to convert to a christian.

according to him he was being guided by God/Jesus AH. he could hear a voice calling upon him to read the bible and so on. and when he started reading the bible he had this feeling which he had never felt before.
and he says that he can still hear that voice..
is it his consious or is it really some heavenly voice ??

he follows the second testament and i was somewhat surprised to hear his reasoning for not following the 1st testament which was “1st testament cannot be followed by humans…its impossible for us to follow that which is why God wanted us to follow the second one”

also he believes that in his view christanity is not a religion. like for most of the things he follows the voice of God which according to him he can hear. for example one[he does not drink because he “thinks” that its not good] day he said to me that sometimes he has a very strong to drink..and asked me that what did i think about that! i simply asked him that what did the bible say about that. and he replied “nothing”. hearing that i replied that you can go ahead and drink if u want(but avoid excessive drinking)..but he wasn’t pleased to hear that as according to him i being a muslim should have discouraged him to do that…i told him that i respect his faith and don’t want to force my faith on him and that he should follow his religion..and that was the reason i asked him that what did bible say about drinking..
i told him that for muslims, quran is a complete code of life..and in quran its clearly mentioned that anything by drinking which one cannot differentiate b/w the good and the bad is forbidden ..therefore drinking is forbidden and thats it…on this he replied that christanity is not exactly a religion…
anywazz…

I would also appreciate that if any of you could shed some more light on the basis on which christianity revolves around. i know that christians believe that all humans are born as sinners and Jesus AH sacrificed his life for their sins. also another belief that really confuses me is that there is a spiritual world, God & Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus AH is son of God but he is also a God.

-heart_beat

[This message has been edited by heart_beat (edited June 01, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by heart_beat (edited June 01, 2002).]

2

There are only two possibilities. Either he is a fraud or he needs treatment.
It depends what type of people surround him and he can easily declare a new Prophethood and attract following.

There have been many such frauds throughout the centuries, declaring divine smells, meeting with some angels, making fool of the people and most of the times these frauds have succeeded. And in some cases they end in mental hospitals.

3

[quote]
Originally posted by heart_beat: is it his consious or is it really some heavenly voice ??
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear heart_beat , the Creator said, let me quote

1 ** Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind **

2 The King (or Ruler) of Mankind

3 The Allah (or Judge) of Mankind

4 ** From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil) who withdraws (after his whisper) **

5 ** (The same) who whispers into the hearts of mankind **

6 ** Among Jinns and among Men.**

Ibrahim says: hence mankind had been warned to seek refuge from the whisperer ** whose only objective is to deceive mankind and to lead them astray.** In fact a Muslim says the opening prayer ( al Fathiha ) at least 17 times a day, which reads……..

1 In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful.

2 Praise be to Allah the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds.

3 Most Gracious Most Merciful.

4 Master of the Day of Judgment.

5 Thee do we worship and Thine aid we seek.

6 Show us the straight way.

7 ** The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace Those whose (portion) is not wrath and who go not astray.**

Ibrahim says; This prayer is said, because of this torment/mission by the whisperer who is bent on misleading mankind.

And we are further told,

14: 22 And ** Satan will say when the matter is decided:** "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of truth: I too promised but I failed in my promise to you. ** I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries nor can ye listen to mine. ** I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrongdoers there must be a Grievous Penalty."

At the same time, the Creator himself says..

2: 186 ** When my servants ask thee concerning Me** I am indeed close (to them); I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me;** let them also with a will listen to My call and believe in Me;** that they may walk in the right way.

39: 18 ** Those who listen to the Word and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are the ones endued with understanding.**

Ibrahim says: Thus it is CLEAR that Allah (swt) does invite mankind to the TRUTH and those that are firmly guided are ** those that follow the word as given by Allah (swt) in the Qur’an** before that in the Injeel ( Gospel) before that in the zabur (Psalms) before that in the Torah before that in the scrolls of Ibrahim (as)and before that in what had been prescribed to the prophets right down to Adam (as) ..** which are all different chapters of the same book that got altered in time **

As such the current and final testament for mankind is the Qur’an but the Bible still contains parts and pieces of the truth that was given to mankind before it was abrogated on account of its corruptions/alterations/additions and omissions.

As such Christians on account of its corruption may end up believing that the Holy spirit is speaking to them ( which is flawed) what they failed to understand is that Allah (swt) appointed for each man a separate spirit to guide them ( immaterial of their faith) , which we may end up calling our conscience.

We know this when we read………

75: 2 And I do call to witness** the self-reproaching spirit;** (eschew Evil).

86: 4 ** There is no soul but has a protector over it**

Ibrahim says: thus all of mankind have this additional spirit that guides and protect them, until man decides to push them away and disregard what they are telling him., even than they are still present but with limited success in guiding man, but for those who listen to this spirit, they are led aright as much as possible.

In the case of Christians , some over zealous in trying to promote their faith may claim that this guidance is actually Jesus or God, whilst others may be listening to the whisperer, whose purpose is to mislead mankind and mistake that as coming from God.

Hope that helps.

[quote]
he follows the second testament and i was somewhat surprised to hear his reasoning for not following the 1st testament which was "1st testament cannot be followed by humans...its impossible for us to follow that which is why God wanted us to follow the second one"
[/quote]

Ibrahim says this is an easy way to escape from the truth, the Torah and prophetic books which is termed as the first testament by Christians is what Christ preached, the Gospel is just an addition to that and not a separate teaching on its own.

[quote]
for example one[he does not drink because he "thinks" that its not good] day he said to me that sometimes he has a very strong to drink..and asked me that what did i think about that! i simply asked him that what did the bible say about that. and he replied "nothing".
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : which means he is not guided by God but by his own desires and understanding.

For according to the Bible

Matthew 26:29. I tell you, ** I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on ** until that day when I drink it anew ** with you in my Father's kingdom."**

Ibrahim says: Meaning even Christ only drank what was sent from heaven and promised NEVER to drink until he is in heaven with the disciples after the day of judgment. BTW the first miracle of Christ as mentioned in the Bible is, as water being turned to wine, which is absurd since the first miracle of Christ is his ability to speak as an infant.

Romans 14:21. It is better not to eat meat ** or drink wine** or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

Isaiah 5:22. ** Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,**

Ibrahim says: In truth alcoholic drinks was forbidden from ancient times.

[quote]
I would also appreciate that if any of you could shed some more light on the basis on which christanity revolves around.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: there is no such revelation revealed by the Creator called Christianity to mankind, what was revealed was Islam as given from the beginning but since they altered it , they ended up naming it Christianity. Naturally Christianity revolves around Christ, whom they out of love for Christ have honored him above the Creator , which has let them to declare he is son of God as well as God for some Christians. Today Christianity may have as much as 30,000 (?) denominations, each having it own notions about the Bible and some calling the others as heretics. Whilst some accepting on part of the teachings and rejecting other parts. In truth Christianity today revolves around blind faith in Christ.

[quote]
i know that christains believe that all humans are born as sinners and Jesus sacrificed his life for their sins. also another belief that really confuses me is that there is a spiritual world, God & Jesus. Christains believe that Jesus is son of God but he is also a God.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Yes there is much confusion in Christianity , and much of it will be classified as mysteries beyond the explanations of man .

Even though their own NT testifies that God is not the author of confusion but the author of Islam

-- King James

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, ** but of peace, ** as in all churches of the saints.

Ibrahim says: all churches and saints means from the beginning, every prophet and temple only preached Peace (Islam)

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** The air that we inhale now has passed through many sets of lungs before reaching us **

4

[quote]
Originally posted by heart_beat:
according to him he was being guided by God/Jesus AH. he could hear a voice calling upon him to read the bible and so on. and when he started reading the bible he had this feeling which he had never felt before.
and he says that he can still hear that voice..is it his consious or is it really some heavenly voice ??
[/quote]

What happened is that your friend was what Christians call, "reborn". Everything you mentions point to this. It is described in John.3v5-7 * Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' *

[quote]
he follows the second testament and i was somewhat surprised to hear his reasoning for not following the 1st testament which was "1st testament cannot be followed by humans...its impossible for us to follow that which is why God wanted us to follow the second one"
[/quote]

Since it is impossible for humans to follow the Law of God to the letter because of our sinful nature, Christians believe that Jesus gave us a new and better covenant of Grace.

5

quote:
---------------------------------------------Originally posted by anand:
There are only two possibilities. Either he is a fraud or he needs treatment. It depends what type of people surround him and he can easily declare a new Prophethood and attract following.

Aren’t u being a bit too paranoid!
What makes u think he is a fraud? just because he was not contented with his previous faith makes him a fraud? or just because he is trying to find the truth to the best of his capabilities and resources?
just for you to know that he is an Electrical Engineer and is working in a very reputable firm AND has got nothing to do with any of the religious groups. Not to mention that this summer he will be joining a Bible camp to help children.

…and yes u are right he needs treatment (and has stilla long way to go in seeking the truth) as christianity was his first step towards truth and Islam would be his final and last

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

quote:

Originally posted by anand:
There have been many such frauds throughout the centuries, declaring divine smells, meeting with some angels, making fool of the people and most of the times these frauds have succeeded. And in some cases they end in mental hospitals.

i don’t know about that but i am glad that now he atleast believes in the existance of God and does not worship man-made idols(no offence intended to anyone)

6

[This message has been edited by heart_beat (edited June 01, 2002).]

7

Thanxx for such a detailed explanation..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

hmm ok now in short what u are trying to convey is that there is our consious(which the Christians believe to be the holy spirit or voice of God) and the other is the voice of satan…

just a thought … how does one differentiate b/w the both?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

in my friend’s case i think he took first step in finding the truth..he himself confessed that he was a very good Hindu and but he was not satisfied with his religion. he never hesitated in doing something wrong or immoral. But after his convertion things really changed for him and he strongly
started to believe in God and so on..

quote:

Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Ibrahim says this is an easy way to escape from the truth…

exactly my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Ibrahim says : which means he is not guided by God but by his own desires and understanding.

Agreed. BUT he does not understand
that “yet”.

quote:

Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Matthew 26:29. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom."

hmm what does Matthew[Romans & Isaiah]signify over here. Are all these verses from the Bible? I will mention this to him.

8

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Man:

Since it is impossible for humans to follow the Law of God to the letter because of our sinful nature, Christians believe that Jesus gave us a new and better covenant of Grace.

is this mentioned somewhere in the Bible? or is it based on humanly assumptions?

9

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
It is described in John.3v5-7 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; greetings of peace to one and all

Dear Old man, Hope you don't mind and kindly do not take offence that I am teaching you the Bible,

let me clarify what Christ meant by that, in the above passage.

Lets read:

John 3

  1. Now there was a man of the ** Pharisees named Nicodemus,** a member of the ** Jewish ruling council. **

    1. ** He came to Jesus at night and said,** "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
    2. ** In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. " **
    3. "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
    4. Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, ** no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. ** {Ibrahim says: meaning having ahuman body which parishes and then raised again on judgement day)
    5. ** Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. **
    6. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.'
    7. ** The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." **
    8. "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
    9. ** "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? **
    10. I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen,** but still you people do not accept our testimony. **
    11. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; ** how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? **
    12. ** No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven** --the Son of Man.
    13. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, ** so the Son of Man must be lifted up,**

Ibrahim says : lets have look at the original texts for John 3 :3

John 3 :3. (Romanised Greeek) Apekrithee Ieesous kai eipen autoo, Ameen ameen legoo soi, ean mee tis genneethee** anoothen, ** ou dunatai idein teen basileian tou Theou!

The truth of the matter is apostle John did not use the phrase "born again". The Greek text reveals, the phrase used by John is "born from above". The Greek word used by John is anothen' (ano' + then').ano' means above' and the suffixthen' denotes `from'. ** Hence, what Jesus said was "unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." And, that sounds logical. Since none of the living creature is "born from above", no one can see the kingdom heaven during his life time. ** The concept of being "born again" to see the kingdom of heaven is an innovation to instill the concept of Baptism. ** In the most recently revised King James Version the text reads; "being born from above." **

The same word `anothen' appears in the same Gospel and in the same chapter in verse 31. Here the editors have translated the word as "from above" and not "again".

John 3: 31. Ho ** anoothen ** erchomenos epanoo pantoon estin. Ho oon ek tees gees ek tees gees estin kai ek tees gees lalei. Ho ek tou ouranou erchomenos epanoo pantoon estin.

Hence what Christ was refereeing to was that you cannot go to heaven unless you have died and was raised up again by God. meaning to be born again after the day of judgment, than one can enter the kingdom of heaven

To enter the Kingdom of Heaven one has to keep the Commandments. Please read Mt. 5:19, quoted below. God's distinguished Command known as the `Covenant of Circumcision' (physically, "in the flesh of your foreskin") was an everlasting Covenant (Compact, Treaty) between God and man. See Genesis 17:10-14.

Can an everlasting Treaty be abrogated or revoked unilaterally? If not, how do the uncircumcised Christians expect to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Did Jesus abrogate the Command? He was circumcised in the flesh (Luke 2:21).

Hot Tip:

** Jesus said; "Whoever then annuls (discards) one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." ** (Matt. 5:19).

Ibrahim says: Needless to tell you, in order for a man to be born again, man had to die first, once man die, he is dead. On the other hand those that are spiritually dead, can only be born again by observing all the commandments of God. Here the passage revealed that Jesus was just a mortal and he has yet to enter heaven as he is not yet dead ( which was Nicodemus implied when he said he was from God.

Hope that gives clarity to the above passage where Nicodemus believed Christ was from heaven and wanted to see heaven for himself and Christ conveyed that one must die first and then only he/she can be raised to heaven . In addition because he is made of water and spirit (having a human body) he is yet to enter heaven.

[quote]
Since it is impossible for humans to follow the Law of God to the letter because of our sinful nature, Christians believe that Jesus gave us a new and better covenant of Grace.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: this is a Christian misconception because Christ preached the exact opposite of what Christians have misconceived and adopted for themselves.

Matthew 5:

  1. ** "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.**

  2. I tell you the truth, ** until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. **

  3. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same ** will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.**

  4. For I tell you that ** unless your righteousness surpasses ** that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, ** you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.**

Ibrahim says : Hence No Christian will enter the kingdom of heaven when he/she has not practiced the laws as given to Moses and as confirmed by Christ (peace be upon them) as conveyed in the above passage as found in the Gospel

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** we are not permitted to chose the frame of our destiny. But what we put into it is ours **

10

[quote]
Originally posted by heart_beat:
hmm ok now in short what u are trying to convey is that there is our consious(which the Christians believe to be the holy spirit or voice of God) and the other is the voice of satan...
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear heart_beat,

what I am saying is that when man starts contemplating under the impression that they are being rightly guided** without referring to the BOOK, that had given by God,** they can continue building on it and design their own building, which may differ from what the TRUTH is all about.

That is why I earlier quoted How the Creator wants us to know whether or not we are rightly guided

The Creator revealed …..

39: 18 ** Those who listen to the Word ** and follow the best (meaning) in it: *those are the ones whom Allah has guided * and those are the ones endued with understanding.

Thus only those who follow what had been revealed, not what their minds may invent , are the rightly guided.

[quote]
just a thought ... how does one differentiate b/w the both?

[/quote]

Ibrahim says : when it comes to simple matters of right and wrong our own conscience will be bugging us, it is simple to understand in the sense that when your own heart keeps toiling and turning within you about a certain matter, that, it could be wrong, it is wrong, and when you go against it only the shaitan would have led you to override this feeling that you had within you that it was wrong.

Just like your friend felt drinking was wrong, even thought he claimed the Bible did not say anything about it, which was his own error due to lack of understanding as to what the Bible says.

On the other hand major issues are revealed in the Book, that had been sent by the Creator. And drinking was forbidden in the Bible.

[quote]
hmm what does Matthew[Romans & Isaiah]signify over here. Are all these verses from the Bible? I will mention this to him.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : those are Biblical verses and cannot be denied by anyone who claims that the Bible is their sacred teachings.

Hope that helps

Was salaam
Ibrahim

11

QUOTE]Originally posted by heart_beat: is this mentioned somewhere in the Bible? or is it based on humanly assumptions?
[/QUOTE]

I'll answer you with a direct quote from the Bible (pardon for the lenth):

  • You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing - if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." * Gen.15v6 * Understand, then, that those that believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." * (Gen.12v3) * So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." * (Deut.27v26) *** Clearly no-one is justified before God by the law,** because, "The righteous will live by faith." * (Hab.2v4) *** The law is not based on faith*; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." * (Lev.18v5) ** Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law** by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree." * (Deut.21v23) * He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no-one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to his seeds", meaning many people, but "and to your seed" * (Gen.12v7) *, meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put in effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

Is the law, therefor, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

You are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ, for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither jew nor Greek, slave or free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. * Gal.3v1-29

Jesus taught that he fulfilled the law (Matt.5v17) and when directly asked by scholars as to the law, he gave his famous summary: * Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." * Matt.22v37-40. Jesus followed this up with a private teaching: * "A new command I give to you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." * John.13v34

What Jesus meant when he said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets", is that the law still exist today for those that want to be judged according to it. He has "fulfilled" it in order to set a new covenant there - one of grace. If we look at what Jesus then continued to preach, we find that he interpreted the law vastly differently to what everyone meant. He pointed out that the law was not just 10 commandments, but so vast that no-one can fulfill all aspects of it. Remember that if you sin in one instance, you have broken the law as if you sinned on all counts. * For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. * James.2v10 (see also Matt.5v19).

We read from the Bible: * But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we can serve the law of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. * Romans 7v6.

Are Christians with the indwelling Spirit such as your friend sinless? No, Christians will always remain sinners in nature but if they ask forgiveness with an earnest heart, their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hope above help to explain the Christian concept of Law and Grace.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited June 02, 2002).]

12

Dear Ibrahim, call it "born from above" or "born again", and the issue is not baptism. Nicodemus understood from Jesus's words that he meant man will have to be born anew on earth, and Jesus did not correct him by stating it is after death. Jesus accepted that this "born from above/born again" needs to take place on earth. He carried on in instructing Nicodemus that this "birth" will be of the spirit inside the present old body of man. Once judgement day occur, there is nothing mankind can do in order to better his position before the Almighty. Jesus knew that the question Nicodemus asked referred to life there and then, not once everything is finished, and Jesus answered him as to how he could rectify his position before God Almighty there and then. Interestingly, Nicodemus did take the advise to heart as can be seen of him later in the Gospels.

(BTW. Nicodemus did not meant that Jesus came from heaven, he merely stated that he knows that Jesus was send from God, same as he would expect any other prophet to be. The term is found ±75 times in Scripture)

[quote]
Ibrahim said: Needless to tell you, in order for a man to be born again, man had to die first, once man die, he is dead.
[/quote]

Exactly the mistake Nicodemus made and on which Jesus replied: * "You are Israel's teacher, and do you not understand these things?"*

Please read: * For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried (only "dead" people get buried!) with him in baptism and raised with him (born from above/born again) through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, (here and now) having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.*

13

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:

[quote]
Old man quoted Paul saying: “You foolish Galatians!” {/quote]

Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all

Dear Old man , here lies the answer, that has been eluding you and Christians all the time.. You have ended up believing in Paul’s epistles ( letters that Paul wrote to collect money from the people) rather than Christ (pbuh)own words as recorded by the Gospel writers, for Christ said.

Matthew 5:22. But I tell you that ** anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment** . Again, anyone who says to his brother, Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But ** anyone who says,You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. **

Ibrahim says Thus, Paul invented his own gospel which contradicts the words of Christ, so the current Christians are followers of Paul and NOT the followers of Christ.

As such when you take the epistle and try to override what was conveyed by Christ, you will be misled.

This rule applies to all scriptures

even in Hinduism, the Veda cannot be contradicted by any other book, same as, the Qur’an cannot be contradicted by the hadiths , as such the gospels are contradicted by the Paul and as Christ said above Paul will be in the danger of fire of hell for his works.

[quote]
Remember that if you sin in one instance, you have broken the law as if you sinned on all counts. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James.2v10 (see also Matt.5v19).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: This would be misconception or total lack of understanding on what was given to Moses (pbuh).

The laws of Moses had its guidelines, which Jews will claim is about 613 in number and that same laws include guidelines as to how one is able to redeem themselves when any of it is broken. As such your argument does not stand.

Kindly read what is done when one breaks the laws

Exodus 29:36. Sacrifice a bull each day ** as a sin offering to make atonement. ** Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it.

Exodus 30:10. ** Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. ** It is most holy to the LORD."

Exodus 30:16. ** Receive the atonement money from the Israelites ** and use it for the service of the Tent of Meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD, making atonement for your lives."

Leviticus 4: 20. and do with this bull just as he did with the bull for the sin offering. ** In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.**

Ibrahim says: thus your problem seems to be that you have believed that Christ was a Christian, which is a FALSE belief, Christ was Jew and coming from the Jewish priesthood family, he knew better as to what was needed to be done in order to atone for one’s sins.

[quote]
We read from the Bible: But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we can serve the law of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7v6.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: which was NEVER said by Christ but by the authors of Romans. Which contradicts the purpose of why Christ was sent and his specific mission to save the Jews.

Kindly read:

Matthew 15: …

  1. He (Jesus) answered, ** "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." **

  2. The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

  3. He replied, ** "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."**

[quote]
No, Christians will always remain sinners in nature but if they ask forgiveness with an earnest heart, their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: sorry, have to disagree with you old man. Sinners who repent are forgiven as per the will of the Creator not by Christ, who was sent on a mission to save the lost sheep of Israel.

Dear Old man, just ask yourself, who was saving the sinners before Christ?, who did Moses speak to? and If you are sincere about it, you will be able to establish the truth. BUT IF you follow the blind faith, than you will end up concluding Christ was God, which is false as he Never claimed it and nowhere in the Bible is such a thing being written.

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** while you are waiting, you are also fading **

14

[quote]
Dear Ibrahim, call it "born from above" or "born again", and the issue is not baptism.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Dear old man, sorry cannot agree with you on this, since the correct translation ( born from above) will make sense and the incorrect (born again) will only mislead people as it has done and many Christians believe in this "born again" invention.

Just before I continue, you should know me very well by now, I am a straight talker, and will not lie or act in order to be politically correct in religious matters to please others.

So we can disagree on what we cannot agree and no offence intended in my approach of being very direct to the point.

[quote]
Nicodemus understood from Jesus's words that he meant man will have to be born anew on earth, and Jesus did not correct him by stating it is after death.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : I am afraid you are mistaken too, since here you are not comprehending how Christ used to talk. Kindly read………

Matthew 13

  1. That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake.
  2. ** Such large crowds gathered around him** that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore.
  3. ** Then he told them many things in parables, ** saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed.
  4. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
  5. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
  6. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
  7. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.
  8. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
  9. He who has ears, let him hear."
  10. ** The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" **
  11. He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
  12. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
  13. ** This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.**

again in

Matthew 13:34. Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; ** he did not say anything to them without using a parable. **

  1. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Again in

Matthew 15:

  1. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

    1. ** Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." **

  2. ** "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.**

Ibrahim says: hence even the disciples had problems understanding Christ when he spoke.

quote
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : kindly read

  1. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. ** For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."**

  2. ** In reply Jesus declared, ** "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

Ibrahim says: obviously there are some missing parts in this passage, as Christ is giving a reply to what question?
THINK, Contemplate. that is the only way scriptures can be understood

Try this: ……..

Nicodemus says: I think you must be from God because you can do miracles

And Christ says: you cannot see the heaven unless you come from the heaven!

Ibrahim says: does this makes sense to you, old man?? So what is missing here is that Nicodemus was implying you are familiar with God because he is helping you perform the miracles and you must be familiar with heaven, can you tell me more or can I reach heaven , would be the logical question here , for which Christ responds about who can see heaven .

I hope this is more rational and clear to you.

[quote]
Old man says: Please read : Colossians 9-14
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Old man who wrote this???

Did Christ EVER say such a thing?? or was this the work of Paul who claimed he was a fool and called others fools?

Let me quote

  1. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. ** He forgave us all our sins, **

Ibrahim says : Dear Old man kindly tell me, when did he do this???

  1. ** having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.**

Ibrahim says: Old man kindly tell me, when did he do this??? Which laws was nailed on the cross and when and by whom???

Dear old man , Did you read that the Jews hanged him on tree???

Ibrahim says : dear old man, so this is why Christians have been misled , they chose to listen to Paul rather than Christ, who came to save the Jews, but the jews TRIED to kill him and Never achieved that, because No one can harm Christ, for even the devil knew it

Kindly read.

Matthew 4: 6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. ** For it is written:** "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, ** so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' **

Ibrahim says :** hence when the angels were protecting him such that even a stone will not cause harm to him, how is it possible for anyone to harm him? "**

Thus the very reason why the Gospel was abrogated is because Christians were deceived by Paul.

Hope that helps you understand better.

Regards
Ibrahim

** direction is more important than speed. Look at the milestone, not just the speedometer. **

15

Ibrahim always says, Ibrahim never listens!

16

Ibrahim says: sorry, have to disagree with you old man.
"Sinners who repent are forgiven as per the will of the Creator not by Christ, who was sent on a mission to save the lost sheep of Israel."

Your very Words my Friend, state CLEARLY The TRUTH. The Creator of ALL, Forgives Sinners who Repent Due to "The Mission of Jesus" sent by The Creator to save The LOST Sheep of Israel, and All The WORLD.

If you do Not believe this to be TRUE, then Why do you speak share these words as TRUTH?

In The Peace of The Creator,

Simplepen

17

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
Ibrahim says: Yes there is much confusion in Christianity , and much of it will be classified as mysteries beyond the explanations of man .

Even though their own NT testifies that God is not the author of confusion but the author of Islam
Please Share with me Where it says this... Chapter and Verse
-- King James

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

**This above Does NOT say The name of Allah, but simply Peace, of which The Creator IS.

The Autor of Confusion is The Master of Deception... Satan Himself.

**

Ibrahim says: all churches and saints means from the beginning, every prophet and temple only preached Peace (Islam)

**This is TRUE, The Church and saints Preached PEACE, but it was man, and NOT GOD, who has claimed ISLAM Means Peace.

If You are Truly one who Seek TRUTH, why do You NOT TRUTHFULLY Share what is in The Book of Christians, as You Work so Hard to Sway others against it.

You Believe what You have come to Believe, so i say to You, SPEAK in TRUTH ALWAYS, and Not only from what You Believe to Be True of The Qu'ran.

Where in The Bible does The Word Islam, or Qu'ran ever stated?

There are many things you are NOT sharing correctly, in your quest to convince others of what you believe.

A servant of The Creator, shall NEVER Misrepresent The TRUTH, and what is written in Words within a Book, should be shared EXACTLY as it is written, so that you are speaking the Truth.

You do NOT need to improve upon any words, for do you NOT TRUST GOD to Lead Each Heart, to the TRUTH.

Share with All what you Believe, but do so in COMPLETE TRUTH.

If a group of words says Tree, do not say the same words REALLY Mean Flower, even if they both seem to look the same.

Peace of The Creator of All LIFE, and Everything in it Be with ALL.

simplepen.

[This message has been edited by simplepen (edited June 03, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by simplepen (edited June 03, 2002).]

18

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Simplepen, I am lost as to what you are referring to here, because I had already given the reference for what I said , which you also seem to be questioning below.

Ibrahim says: I believe your problem was because ** you seem to be looking at it in English and want me to show it to you in Arabic.** So if you want to see Allah and Salam (which is the word Islam is derived from) you must look at an Arabic Gospel or Peshitta ( Aramaic Gospel) to be more precise .

I assure you the Arabic Christians and Aramaic speaking Christians call upon Allah which in English is being translated to God (which itself is false)

** Aramaic Pronunciation that corresponds to the word “God” as appearing in the English Bible :-

(Eastern) AaLaH
(Western) AaLoH **

visit http://www.peshitta.org/ and use lexicon to identify the word, if you do not want to believe what I say.

And I also assure you that
The word Peace originated form the Aramaic words

** Aramaic Pronunciation for the word Peace as appearing in the English Bible:-

(Eastern) D’aSHLaMaA
(Western) D’aSHLoMoA **

visit http://www.peshitta.org/ and use Aramaic lexicon to identify the word, if you do not want to believe what I say.
The word in Peace in Arabic is Salaam
The word peace in Hebrew is Shalom

So kindly try to be more resourceful by finding out what was actually said not what the translations may say.

** Thus I hope you will be able accept the fact that Christ called upon Allah and preached Islam not Christianity. **

Ibrahim says: It seems you are unaware that Islam is derived from the root word “salaam” which means Peace.

Ibrahim says I have done that, maybe you were unaware of it . Even in this thread my point is that there is NO such thing as “born Again: because that is not the word that appears in the Greek, translation.

Ibrahim says So now point to me where I have been untruthful. If you know.

Ibrahim says; I just proved my point above, the words Peace comes from the Aramaic pronunciation

Eastern) D’aSHLaMaA
(Western) D’aSHLoMoA

So now ask yourself what is the meaning when it is written

1 Corinthians 14:33 For ** AaLaH ** is not the author of confusion, but of ** D’aSHLaMaA** , as in all churches of the saints.

Ibrahim says Don’t you know this is what the Qur’an says again and again??

Ibrahim says : feel free to correct me, don’t just say “many things” and avoid telling me, because that will make you sound like an untruthful person, so tell me where I have not been truthful??

Ibrahim says: that is why I have said, the apostles claim they hanged him on a tree, so why have you ended up believing that he was nailed on across??

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

**striving is part of destiny, so strive to establish the truth **

19

[quote]
Your very Words my Friend, state CLEARLY The TRUTH. The Creator of ALL, Forgives Sinners who Repent Due to "The Mission of Jesus" sent by The Creator to save The LOST Sheep of Israel, and All The WORLD.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Simplepen, I am afraid you have misunderstood what I am saying or you prefer to read it your way, which I have to disagree.

Christ is not the savior not does God saves because of Christ, as you seem to imply, not because I don’t like it, because the Bible says so.

So kindly read.

Isaiah 17:10. ** You have forgotten God your Savior;** you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. Therefore, though you set out the finest plants and plant imported vines,

Isaiah 43: 3. ** For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;** I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead.

Isaiah 43:11. I, even ** I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.**

Ibrahim says : So you see, until you get all these words changed into because of Jesus, I am afraid, your argument, just doesn’t cut it.! Not my wishes but that the way it is.

Now the mission of Christ was to redirect the Jews, (Jewish priesthood) but he failed and the Jews wanted to harm him, which they failed to achive.

[quote]
If you do Not believe this to be TRUE, then Why do you speak share these words as TRUTH?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: apparently you seem confused because what I said was

[quote]
Ibrahim says: sorry, have to disagree with you old man. Sinners who repent are forgiven as per the will of the Creator not by Christ, who was sent on a mission to save the lost sheep of Israel.

Dear Old man,** just ask yourself, who was saving the sinners before Christ?, who did Moses speak to? and If you are sincere about it, you will be able to establish the truth. BUT IF you follow the blind faith, than you will end up concluding Christ was God, which is false as he Never claimed it and nowhere in the Bible is such a thing being written. ** Hope that helps
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : So my dear Simplepen, seems as though you are misquoting me and kindly answer those questions, so that you will also become enlightened .

Regards
Ibrahim

** unless man is acting , he is reacting, because life is not a vacuum. **

20

[quote]
Originally posted by anand:
**

Ibrahim always says, Ibrahim never listens!**
[/quote]

With This I Must Agree, and I have only The Words he has shared here within, to SEE.