An Explanation of Immaculate Conception?

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I read Khair-un-Nisa’s post on Scientific Morality.

I then came across the theory below and am reproducing it for input from people more knowledgable with this branch of Science.

There are certain children born with an undistinguishable sex they are hermaphrodites and look mostly female at birth and could grow in either direction into a boy or a girl.

However some of these are klinefelters. Men have XY chromasomes, women have XX chromosomes, klinefelters have XXY.

Technically a klinefelter is male because of the presence of the Y chromosome. However a hermaphrodite klinefelter could grow either way into a male or female. Usually a kleinfelter hermaphrodite would grow up to be sterile, but there is such a phenomenon as parthenogenesis.

In parthenogesis temperature and chemicals are used to induce an ovum to develop into a new individual without fertilisation.

The question is, if the right conditions for parthenogesis were present then could a kleinfelter’s ovum develop into a baby without fertilisation? as in homogenesis in invertibrate forms of life, such a baby would have to be female, but only if the mother was a kleinfelter could the Y chromosome be present to make the baby into a male.

This brings us to an interesting point. Why does the Quran in Chapter 3 verse 36 interject the exclamation of Mary’s mother that she had given birth to a girl to state the obvious “the male not being as the female”?

Could there be a clue here that the child Mary was in fact an hermaphrodite kleinfelter being technically male not the same as a normal female because of the presence of a Y chromasome?

As is usually the case with every miracle there is usually a scientific explanation for it if not, then it simply means that we have not found the explanations yet.

Comments?

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[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**As is usually the case with every miracle there is usually a scientific explanation for it if not, then it simply means that we have not found the explanations yet.

**
[/quote]

Agree with above to some extent.

So, Mary becomes hermaphrodite kleinfelter and therefore Jesus came into existence due to process of parthenogesis?

Hmm, I'll have to get back to you on that one...

~@~Kul de Khair Mangdi~@~

Freedom Without Responsibility is Disastrous

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I'm still clueless. Would the individual giving "parthenogenic" birth experience labour pains? What exactly is this process?
Or is fertalisation and birth more ameoba - like? Thats the nearest i could find on asexual reproduction.

~@~Kul de Khair Mangdi~@~

Freedom Without Responsibility is Disastrous

4

I was watching the discovery channel the other day and they were discussing Jesus from the Biblical point of view.

At one point in the three hour program, they had a specialized biologist talking about reproduction. He said that it IS possible to have a birth as such. He also said that some women have XY chromosomes and some men have XX chromosomes. (Hormones play a large part in why they appear to be masculine and feminine.-this from another program.) Anyway, his point was I believe similar to what you stated there. He said it should no longer be accepted as impossible for a woman to give such a birth, but that it is rare and a biological anomoly. Still a miracle! smile

Learn to love yourself, then learn to love one-another

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my contribution here = " --- "

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Thats a first that i’ve heard of - men with XX chromosomes?!!

Has there been a revision in the Bio textbooks?

Hmm, thats what I have trouble understanding, can an anomaly / abnormal process be a miracle?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

GD, u know u really don’t have to contribute if u’ve nothing to say, my sweet.

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Khairun Nisa,

I just quoted the program. I have read other articles which I dont remember the source now, which also states that it is possible to have such a birth where there is no "male" present.

The reason I say miracle is because to me life in general is miraculous.

As far as Isa(AS) speaking as a baby, there is mention in hadith literature of atleast two others who spoke(some words) as babes.

Anyway...I can look up the articles I read in the past about such births...and maybe post them. smile

Learn to love yourself, then learn to love one-another

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P.A. Munni,K.N.&others

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Why this never happened before or after 2000yrsago among 6 billions now & many billions dead past.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

Parthogenesis can explain only female off spring .
Women dont have y chromosome

I dont mix science with religion for the same reason b/c then you have to fit faith into SCIENCE .Science is not faith.It has different agenda & criteria & it will never prove absence of god or miracle .

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

Keep faith seperate from Math & Science plz many crazy students have made the mistake & have regretted it .

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

door ke dhol suhawan

Familiarity breeds Contempt

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Yusuf,

As far as my belief goes, I believe that Allah created this world and everything in it, and of all the science we learn, some are theories and will remain theories, and some things are facts. Sometimes its difficult to separate one from the other, and that comes with more knowledge and understanding.

If we cant find an explanation in Qur'an or sunnah for some scientific fact that is explained, to me that is not a lack of explanation by Qur'an and what it holds, but rather a lack of human understanding that we cant find the relation.

If you are waiting for science to disprove your beliefs, it just may happen, but when you know that no matter what science finds, your belief wont be shaken, that is true belief in my opinion. smile

Learn to love yourself, then learn to love one-another

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Yusuf,

I agree that the Birth of Jesus (PBUH) is a unique phenomenon, which hasn't happened before or since and I do not need "scientific" explanation for that.

All I am trying to do is understand the process of apparent birth through parthenogesis, and if such a thing does exist (PakistaniAbroad, where are you? I'd like some explanation(s), if you please).

I don't think many people of "faith" would feel a need to fit faith into science, as you say. Science is not faith, but part of faith for science is knowledge. And I am sure you know Islam is built on knowledge and understanding, not blind faith.

For me, science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but rather provide me grounds to increase my faith and is an integral part of belief -- All knowledge, all signs are from Him, and it is our duty to think, ponder and to understand.

~@~Kul de Khair Mangdi~@~

Freedom Without Responsibility is Disastrous

[This message has been edited by Khairun Nisa (edited December 28, 2001).]

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Munni

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

This need to either prove or disprove religion through SCIENCE stems from an inherent FEELING of inferiority of RELIGION to SCIENCE =MODERNITY.

Some how when we progress the way we did in the last century from bullock cart to supersonic jet & ‘dwat & kalam’ to word processor & computers ,in our FOOLISHNESS,IGNORENCE & naiviety some of us declared 'now we can discard religion’Iam not in that group.

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“If we cant find an explanation in Qur’an or sunnah for some scientific fact that is explained, to me that is not a lack of explanation by Qur’an and what it holds, but rather a lack of human understanding that we cant find the relation.”

I dont think Koran ever was presented as the Only book needed.IT IS DEFENITELY A FINAL BOOK ,DIVINE WORD OF GOD ,REVEALED TO LAST PROPHET AS MIRACLE.I agree

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

But to ask koran to teach you algebra is foolish argument again as i said stemming from desire to prove KORAN ,when it DOESNT NEED TO BE PROVEN.Its unbelievers burden to believe or STOP THROWING CHALLENGES TO KORAN.Some scholars of Koran & Islam have explained embryology ,astronomy ,&other scientific facts in koran ,which is very good & we remain indebted …Islamic glory days of medieval Cardova & Islamic Spain.
However ,i dont think we as muslim guarantee anybody of anything more .That way only Islam cant be made to be attacked while most other outrageous holy books of Hindu ,judeaism or bible of new testament DONT HAVE TO.Why should we?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

IT IS HIGHLY ERRONEOUS TO CLAIM, PROVIDE OR ASK OF KORAN TO PERFORM MIRACLES as a magic wand as seen in ignorent countries where Koran is not read but used as TALISMAN to bring god omen ,drive evil spirits,innaugurate ,close deals ,initiate this & that .

…Of course many good qualities of Islamic practice is quiet evident in practice.Abulation,Discipline of 5 times prayers,Fasting ,Circumcision,Modesty in women ,Evil effect of Obsession with sex & violence ,Alcoholism,Zakat as disrtibution of wealth ,evil effect of Usury,Reason of Polygamy ,Reason of divorce law (exit ) Hindus dont give that right by religion,.But thats not it Allah always has given us our BRAIN to THINK ,so whatever changes happened in 15000 years & in future ,need to be ADAPTED to by IJTIDAD which is thinking of brain.

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ahaa.gif

door ke dhol suhawan

Familiarity breeds Contempt

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MN

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

I understand ,initially you would need to make sense of things inorder to come into the faith.After having checked most of its practiceses you dont feel specially if somebody is just trying to bother you by throwing questions like …oh if circumcision prevents aid how is it possible koran knew of aids & world only knew of it in 80s.

You know that the person is just trying to deride your book or doesnt havesimple sense that koran might have inculcated a good practice which may be good for future for ever .Be it Aids or STD !

I agree with you Islam stresses need to acquire KNOWLEDGE And it mentions go as far as it takes EVEN China(CHEEN) if you have to for we know Greek,Chinese were far advanced priopr to Islamic glory in invention of Mirror ,fire works ,et & greek in Unani medicine & socrates Aristotle Pluto Philosophy.

And Koran does have maby scientifically sound facts in fact whole anatomy subhject embroyology ,astronomy ,was nil prior to 700a.d. & it is first time mentioned in Koran.The miraculous part is that it was not before Rennaisence after 1453 & much later ,the restn of the world started knowing of that by translation from Arabic.

So i agree with your contention of knowledge & science ,only would modify it by little caution that have a line drawn beyond which yu wont promise to avoid falling into the trap.

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door ke dhol suhawan

Familiarity breeds Contempt

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Jesus Christ (AS) was a miracle of God, because God demonstrated that the laws of nature are enslaved and subject to His will.

He can create a child in a woman's womb without a father's sperm needed, if He so has the will.

The Christians warped this miraculous birth of Jesus into a claim that God had somehow fertilized Mary (Nouzubillah) and that Jesus was therefore God's son.

But this is contrary to the logic of God's religion.

The miracle is that God can create a child without a father if He so wills.

The notion of God fathering a son, on the other hand, is not a miracle. It is an absurdity.