America's pipe dream - Pakistan's choices.

What is clear is that the United States tolerated and interacted with the Taliban in the early years? But the Taliban would not play ball. Now again the US is hoping to replace the Taliban with a friendlier regime, one that will let it build its pipelines from Central Asia through to the warm water ports of Pakistan. In this the US intends to * bind the economies of central Asia to that of Pakistan’s. * We would obviously become the regional power of Central Asia, and acquire great economic and strategic benefits from this. But it may mean acquiescing in US ‘designs’ to contain the rise of China?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,579169,00.html

America’s pipe dream

A pro-western regime in Kabul should give the US an Afghan route for Caspian oil

“Is there any man, is there any woman, let me say any child here,” Woodrow Wilson asked a year after the first world war ended, “that does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry?” In 1919, as US citizens watched a shredded Europe scraping up its own remains, the answer may well have been no. But the lessons of war never last for long.

The invasion of Afghanistan is certainly a campaign against terrorism, but it may also be a late colonial adventure. British ministers have warned MPs that opposing the war is the moral equivalent of appeasing Hitler, but in some respects our moral choices are closer to those of 1956 than those of 1938. Afghanistan is as indispensable to the regional control and transport of oil in central Asia as Egypt was in the Middle East.

Afghanistan has some oil and gas of its own, but not enough to qualify as a major strategic concern. Its northern neighbours, by contrast, contain reserves which could be critical to future global supply. In 1998, Dick Cheney, now US vice-president but then chief executive of a major oil services company, remarked: “I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.” But the oil and gas there is worthless until it is moved. The only route which makes both political and economic sense is through Afghanistan.

Transporting all the Caspian basin’s fossil fuel through Russia or Azerbaijan would greatly enhance Russia’s political and economic control over the central Asian republics, which is precisely what the west has spent 10 years trying to prevent. Piping it through Iran would enrich a regime which the US has been seeking to isolate. Sending it the long way round through China, quite aside from the strategic considerations, would be prohibitively expensive. But pipelines through Afghanistan would allow the US both to pursue its aim of “diversifying energy supply” and to penetrate the world’s most lucrative markets. Growth in European oil consumption is slow and competition is intense. In south Asia, by contrast, demand is booming and competitors are scarce. Pumping oil south and selling it in Pakistan and India, in other words, is far more profitable than pumping it west and selling it in Europe.

As the author Ahmed Rashid has documented, in 1995 the US oil company Unocal started negotiating to build oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan, through Afghanistan and into Pakistani ports on the Arabian sea. The company’s scheme required a single administration in Afghanistan, which would guarantee safe passage for its goods. Soon after the Taliban took Kabul in September 1996, the Telegraph reported that “oil industry insiders say the dream of securing a pipeline across Afghanistan is the main reason why Pakistan, a close political ally of America’s, has been so supportive of the Taliban, and why America has quietly acquiesced in its conquest of Afghanistan”. Unocal invited some of the leaders of the Taliban to Houston, where they were royally entertained. The company suggested paying these barbarians 15 cents for every thousand cubic feet of gas it pumped through the land they had conquered.

For the first year of Taliban rule, US policy towards the regime appears to have been determined principally by Unocal’s interests. In 1997 a US diplomat told Rashid “the Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis did. There will be Aramco [the former US oil consortium in Saudi Arabia] pipelines, an emir, no parliament and lots of Sharia law. We can live with that.” US policy began to change only when feminists and greens started campaigning against both Unocal’s plans and the government’s covert backing for Kabul.

Even so, as a transcript of a congress hearing now circulating among war resisters shows, Unocal failed to get the message. In February 1998, John Maresca, its head of international relations, told representatives that the growth in demand for energy in Asia and sanctions against Iran determined that Afghanistan remained “the only other possible route” for Caspian oil. The company, once the Afghan government was recognised by foreign diplomats and banks, still hoped to build a 1,000-mile pipeline, which would carry a million barrels a day. Only in December 1998, four months after the embassy bombings in east Africa, did Unocal drop its plans.

But Afghanistan’s strategic importance has not changed. In September, a few days before the attack on New York, the US energy information administration reported that “Afghanistan’s significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from central Asia to the Arabian sea. This potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan”. Given that the US government is dominated by former oil industry executives, we would be foolish to suppose that such plans no longer figure in its strategic thinking. As the researcher Keith Fisher has pointed out, the possible economic outcomes of the war in Afghanistan mirror the possible economic outcomes of the war in the Balkans, where the development of “Corridor 8”, an economic zone built around a pipeline carrying oil and gas from the Caspian to Europe, is a critical allied concern.

American foreign policy is governed by the doctrine of “full-spectrum dominance”, which means that the US should control military, economic and political development worldwide. China has responded by seeking to expand its interests in central Asia. The defence white paper Beijing published last year argued that “China’s fundamental interests lie in … the establishment and maintenance of a new regional security order”. In June, China and Russia pulled four central Asian republics into a “Shanghai cooperation organisation”. Its purpose, according to Jiang Zemin, is to “foster world multi-polarisation”, by which he means contesting US full-spectrum dominance.

If the US succeeds in overthrowing the Taliban and replacing them with a stable and grateful pro-western government and if the US then binds the economies of central Asia to that of its ally Pakistan, it will have crushed not only terrorism, but also the growing ambitions of both Russia and China. Afghanistan, as ever, is the key to the western domination of Asia.

We have argued on these pages about whether terrorism is likely to be deterred or encouraged by the invasion of Afghanistan, or whether the plight of the starving there will be relieved or exacerbated by attempts to destroy the Taliban. But neither of these considerations describes the full scope and purpose of this war. As John Flynn wrote in 1944: “The enemy aggressor is always pursuing a course of larceny, murder, rapine and barbarism. We are always moving forward with high mission, a destiny imposed by the Deity to regenerate our victims while incidentally capturing their markets, to civilise savage and senile and paranoid peoples while blundering accidentally into their oil wells.” I believe that the US government is genuine in its attempt to stamp out terrorism by military force in Afghanistan, however misguided that may be. But we would be naïve to believe that this is all it is doing.

though article does not tell anything new, is interesting in some sense. what i dont understad is that taliban or no taliban, even if pipeline goes through iran, if destination is india, it has to go through pakistan. so why pak is so worried. whatever regime is in kabul, they will continue to fight and to many countries share border with afghanistan and it can become unstable any time. on the other hand iran is more sensible and rational nation has 3000 yrs of civilization behind it and is not a bunch of tribals. doing business witn iran makes more sense.
of course, if destination is going to be india, india has to agree. but if, at all, US vision of world becomes true and every country becomes as obedient to US as Britain is, it may happen. I do not think this vision is going to bear fruin in next 10 yrs. at least.

ardeshir cawasjee had an interesting point. he says was have unintended, unpredicted consequences. England went for WW II for liberration of poland and handed over Poland to stalin at end of war. Soviet union entered afghanistan for a 1-2 month stay, ended up for 10 yrs and that war contributed to its collapse and so on. we all know impacty of that war on pak. none can predict consequenses of wars, particularly long-drawn wars. however, u r safer if u r away from actual theater of war and india is lucky not to be a 'frontline state'.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
*I do not think this vision is going to bear fruin in next 10 yrs. at least.
*

[/quote]

No I doubt that, America will stay America in next 10 years.


“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

i think my message has become wierd due to lot of misspellings. take care. i am going for picnic for 3-4 days. keep LoC intact in meanwhile

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
*i think my message has become wierd due to lot of misspellings. *
[/quote]

So whats new.....

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
every country becomes as obedient to US as Britain is, it may happen. .
[/quote]

Conspiracy theories suggest that the Uk now uses US as its Hitman to do its work, kinda like palpatine using Vader to do his bidding.

heh anyone heard of that wacko lyndon larouche?

No, uk is just hanging on to america's coat tails to get back what it thinks were its glory days and what to a large part were its nazi days.

If there had been an attack like the one on america in the uk - the world would have forgotten about it by now.

Yep, Shada!


“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

Did you know the UK has the fourth largest economy in the world???

Machinations from behind the scenes orchestrating has assured this over the last 5 years.

The UK under the present regime has grand designs, I for one don’t underestimate their influence on geopolitics. Maybe it suits them to remain in the shadow of the US.

I digress, ZZ Iran by it’s very unified state of existence is a greater threat to US interests than the fractal Afghanistan. A unified no is more threatening than a fractal one. However, knowing the terrain of Afghanistan and the mechanics of gas/oil pipelines..it’s going to be an expensive venture for construction and upkeep…no doubt it is all worth it!? a few more bombs should level the ground nicely heavey sarcasm

Additionally, India has very little business in all of this, but keep being mentioned, as far as I can see it is only a potential market!. In any case it has very little to gain financially in the situation but insists on being kept in the loop in order to keep it’s personal vendetta alive with pakistan from all sides. I know Zorastranism (fire worshipping) started in Iran and spread to India but really …they are all muslims in Iran now and any freindly overtures towards Iran are a transparent attempt to encircle Pakistan with foaming at the mouth enimies.

So in the words of …oooh was it now???..“Lay off” the regional picture, you’ve been pushed into second place as the local superpower…for better or for worse

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Originally posted by Thap:
Did you know the UK has the fourth largest economy in the world???

If so, would they matter more than second lagest economy of world? Do they matter more than Japan? Do they matter more than even China which is a much smaller economy. Indian foreign minister described britain as third rate power two years ago. Will they dare to talk of UK in such terms if it was not a toothless tiger.

I digress, ZZ Iran by it’s very unified state of existence is a greater threat to US interests than the fractal Afghanistan. A unified no is more threatening than a fractal one. However, knowing the terrain of Afghanistan and the mechanics of gas/oil pipelines..it’s going to be an expensive venture for construction and upkeep…no doubt it is all worth it!? a few more bombs should level the ground nicely heavey sarcasm

20 years ago, yes. today, no. the allies of US 20 yrs ago, say iraq are now bitter enemies. in fact, i would say US is trying level best to get its relation with Iran to a high gear. But history is what is making the present situiation complex.

Additionally, India has very little business in all of this, but keep being mentioned, as far as I can see it is only a potential market!.

if not India, what the pipeline is for? Zimbabwe! Whose business is it?

** In any case it has very little to gain financially in the situation but insists on being kept in the loop in order to keep it’s personal vendetta alive with pakistan from all sides. **

If India does not gain, why would pipeline come in. Unless India’s gains from cheap gas from pipeline as compared to shipping are substancial enough to give away a strategic control, why would india bother. and even if there are gains, i have doubts india will accept buying gas. if india does not give undertaking to buy gas, pipeline will not even start.

I know Zorastranism (fire worshipping) started in Iran and spread to India but really …they are all muslims in Iran now and any freindly overtures towards Iran are a transparent attempt to encircle Pakistan with foaming at the mouth enimies.

I dont understand what u r saying. What if they are muslims now and why cant muslims be friendly to india. Turkish primeminister has even translated Geeta in turkish and quoted from sanskrit texts when in delhi. in fact, only muslim country opposed to india is pak.

**So in the words of …oooh was it now???..“Lay off” the regional picture, you’ve been pushed into second place as the local superpower…for better or for worse

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

**

who decides this pecking order and sudeen changes in it of regional superpowers. when u r going to put bhutan at the top of shuffling order?

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
**if not India, what the pipeline is for? Zimbabwe! Whose business is it?

If India does not gain, why would pipeline come in. **
[/quote]

If you get off your jealous Indian pedestal for a change you would note, that the gas and oil pipelines from Central Asia will sweep through Afghanistan and down to the warm water ports of Southern Pakistan. They are meant mainly to provide supplies to the energy-hungry west and the world in general, of which India is just one small market. The gas pipeline from Iran VIA Pakistan to India is a separate matter.

if u want to go west from afghanistan, where does pak come in?

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
if u want to go west from afghanistan, where does pak come in?
[/quote]

Where would they go if they go in that direction,,, I hope it don't end up in Iraq.
BTW India is desperate for a gas pipe line for its growing population and the only route is through Pak. A sea route was rejected in the 90s by Russian team as not feasible.

If gas can be transported so can crude oil…

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdali:
** Where would they go if they go in that direction,,, I hope it don't end up in Iraq.
BTW India is desperate for a gas pipe line for its growing population and the only route is through Pak. A sea route was rejected in the 90s by Russian team as not feasible.

If gas can be transported so can crude oil**
[/quote]

india is only market if u go east.
if u want to go west fro afghaistan, pakistan is in east of afghanistan, so why would u go to pak.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
if u want to go west from afghanistan, where does pak come in?
[/quote]

It's quite simple really. The US does not want the pipelines from the CAR's to go through Russian or Iranian territory for obvious political (and lack of feasibility) reasons. So the only other feasible option is through Pakistan via Afghanistan. That is why the the US actively aided and encouraged the rise of the Taliban in the early 1990's i.e. in the hope that they would bring total stability in Afghanistan, and be 'willing' partners. Taliban or no Taliban the US will go ahead with these plans in the future, and Pakistan will be the leading benaficiary of this.

[quote]
Originally posted by Malik73:
** It's quite simple really. The US does not want the pipelines from the CAR's to go through Russian or Iranian territory for obvious political (and lack of feasibility) reasons. So the only other feasible option is through Pakistan via Afghanistan. That is why the the US actively aided and encouraged the rise of the Taliban in the early 1990's i.e. in the hope that they would bring total stability in Afghanistan, and be 'willing' partners. Taliban or no Taliban the US will go ahead with these plans in the future, and Pakistan will be the leading benaficiary of this.**
[/quote]

but if the destination is to go to west how will pak fare? look at the map. u want to go to west from pak. where will u go? iran or afghanistan. now gas comes from central asia to afghanistan. it wants to move west. where does pak come in? pak is in east. pak matters, in fact is crucial, only if u want to send oil to india. in fact, in that case u cant do without pak. but to west, pak is irrelevant.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
**
[QUOTE]

india is only market if u go east.
.**
[/quote]

And thats exactly where the pipe line is going south east to the warm dry docks of Sindh and Baluchistan.

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdali:
** And thats exactly where the pipe line is going south east to the warm dry docks of Sindh and Baluchistan.

**
[/quote]

if u want to ship, there are hazar alternatives and so called price advantage is gone.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
** but if the destination is to go to west how will pak fare? look at the map. u want to go to west from pak. where will u go? iran or afghanistan. now gas comes from central asia to afghanistan. it wants to move west. where does pak come in? pak is in east. pak matters, in fact is crucial, only if u want to send oil to india. in fact, in that case u cant do without pak. but to west, pak is irrelevant.

**
[/quote]

I don’t think you quite grasp the subject here do you, because you are stuck in that India-only mode? This is not about a one-off gas pipeline to India, as the Iran gas pipeline. This is about the eventual mass transportation of CAR energy supplies to the western markets, and the rest of the world. So let me simplify it for you even more. Does the oil from the Arabian Gulf States not supply the rest of the world? Yes? How is that transported to the west? Through the massive container and shipping ports of the Gulf? Almost exactly same situation here – the oil will be transported from the CAR’s by pipeline’s via Afghanistan to the Southern Pakistani ports. From there it will be transported to the west, just as it is from the Gulf.

As I stated earlier the US only sees Pakistan as the most feasible route from which these pipelines will go through. I suggest you read the entire article over again especially the part about US wanting to bind the economies of central Asia to that of Pakistan’s.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
** if u want to ship, there are hazar alternatives and so called price advantage is gone.**
[/quote]

hazar alternates are not worth it when it comes to gas something India is desprate for.
Oil yes gas no....