There is a lot of talk about integration and Pakistanis in parts of UK are considered in particular of having failed to do so.
When we talk about integration does that mean integrating in the full spectrum though? While everyone is happy to see their son/daughter make a successful career in Programming or medicine, how would they feel if young Ahmed wanted to open a wine bar? Or if their girl wanted to become a pop star?
What about modelling or showbiz?
Indians in the UK have generally started to cross this divide (not without their problems mind you), but Pakistanis still hold back. Is it realistic to expect only partial integration and hope to make a successful community?
U know, it's not a matter of how the Pakistani community views this .. integration. Who cares about what they think - usually, its population at large thinks/says things which r very very negative no matter what . If folks care about what others say ... then your totally holding yourself back. Which is unfortunate.
If anyone wants to open a wine place - hey, it's a free country. Especially the UK I take it? but it's over the fella's head as with what happens way wayy with the aftermath that's all.
If you wanna make a career change where you want to try something totally new simply because you have that personal hunger for it - then go for it!!
And um, hopefully, your family/rents support you. Another important factor.
" We didnt' start the fire
it was always burning since the world's been turning .. "
Well Kohal, the truth is, there must be a lot of potential that doesn't get realised because Pakistani kids are discouraged from going into certain professions. Which is sad in a way. But then on the other hand, when we talk about alternative careers we have to consider everything that goes if we aren't going to kid ourselves.
For example, I had a friend who fancied his chances at making a lot of money as a gigolo. Ok, perhaps he over-rated himself, but who knows? It could have been a successful career move. (Sobi are you happy now?)
Anyway, it's something to think about. The point is, if someone has an ability in western societies they are usually encouraged to pursue it. For example Hanif Qureshi made the film 'Sammy and Rosie get Laid' in England. If he made that film in Pakistan, he would probably have got laid himself. And yet there is the argument that he has a talent for writing controversial material and he should be allowed to express it.
The thing is, how should we, as citizens of UK, US, Canada etc, view these possibilities? Bearing in mind the famous saying:
"When in Rome do as the Romans do"
Do we hold onto old values and principles and therefore create a "them and us" or do we throw ourselves in wholeheartedly and join in all spheres of life?
I think career choices are dictated by many things. One of them is upbringing, without a doubt. But the prevailing culture also plays an important role.
While I could not countenance opening a wine shop myself, I might not have problems going to a bar (here in Italy a bar sells everything, coffee and wine as well as brandy) to drink a cup of coffee and even buy a glass of wine for a friend who accompanies me.
You need to rememember that even within teh prevailing culture there are differences. I know of people who would never drink even here and they are not Muslims. I know of people who are extremely modest and circumspect in their way of dressing and wouldn't be caught dead in string bikinis. But it's a free country. You can do what you want - well almost always!
I hope that my children will be successful professionals. That's a bit different and much more ambitious than many people here. But I would place their healtha nd happiness way above that. I know an MIT professor whose son chose to be a silversmith - they are all happy. Why not?
**I think its not abt being a paki.. its abt a muslim jazba.. yes ofcourse neone can sacrifice it for his/her self promotion..
materialism is the order of the day.. u wanna dance naked to earn bucks.. ur choice.. but do consider u r degrading world's second largest community..
u see my uncle had to face this bad experience in england infact.. a good christian friend was getting much info of islam as he was interested in converting.. but at some point he came across a baaad influencial muslim..
khair tht didnt stop him frm converting and its an honor to say he is turning out to be a better Muslim than many muslims thr in england..
how shameful.. for who??? tht i leave for ur imagination and thinking**
Even though we ourselves are doing things that may be against the principles of Islam, we should still discourage others from doing the same. As a muslim you cannot own a liquor shop - nor can you work directly with Interest. If one person does it,or a 100 people do it, it still doesnt' make it right. So the argument about should you or shouldn't you becomes irrelevant.. As a muslim you can't, but if YOU choose to do it then that is your own personal choice.
Some people have said that you shoudn't mention Islam when posting in other forums apart from Religion.. Why not??? After all, I am a Muslim Pakistani. Pakistan was built upon the principles of Islam and Islam is also my way of life. Thus, it shouldn't be an issue if I choose to give my views according to my beliefs..
Outside Pakistan, and even within for those who live there, our lives revolve around Islam, with it’s adultrations with traditions and such. It is not possible, figuratively nor physically, to disconnect from Islam when conducting any aspect of your life.
As was said about liqure or modelling or showbiz: Why only these occupations? There are other occupations that we frown upon. Desis are grouped in 3 major occupational categories: Doctors, engineers, business owners – majority the small/medium grocery/gas->petrol stations. There is a whole world out there. The nation can not thrive, and we can not assimilate completely unless, people integrate in all fields of employment. As Cooldude correctly said, we are muslims first. In whatever endevour we step into, we will be judged, ultimatley, as Muslims. All of us have varying degrees of realization of this. I have been in the U.S. for 28 years and I have, yet, to see a desi who wasn’t a doctor, businessman or engineer. Let me correct myself. I have only come across two or three people who do not fit the above buckets that I mentioned. One is a tailor with an exclusive tailoring company in Dallas, one is police officer, one is in the army.
Modelling or showbiz: Why not? But there is a choice of the type of role to be displayed. I just went to junoon’s concert in Dallas on Saturday. There was a fashion/modelling show at the beginning of the concert. I wish to see more like that. But will it happen in the long term? No. But if concern is shown about this and resistance put up to counter the present levels of expections for models/shobiz then things will change to the point of accomodation. Xtreme said: ** Is it realistic to expect only partial integration and hope to make a successful community?**. I don’t believe it is possible to stay aloof and yet become part of the system in it’s full capacity. It’s just not possible.
Kohalic said:
** What’s wrong with a girl becoming a pop star?
U know, it’s not a matter of how the Pakistani community views this .. integration. Who cares about what they think - usually, its population at large thinks/says things which r very very negative no matter what . If folks care about what others say … then your totally holding yourself back. Which is unfortunate.**
There is nothing wrong. You are forgetting that in our culture a large part of our upbringing, talking in respect to growing up on Pakistan, is the ideas of behaving lest other notice and say something/anything negative. I believe I am correct in saying this. At least I remember this from my childhood. I left Pakistan when it was expected that children on the street, in the local mohalla, would say salaam to old folks when they pass them by….if you are laughing on this then check your parents on this. Point is, I believe, that those who have grown up in Pakistan and left for the golden fields of Europe or U.S.A. conduct themselves according to the way they were brought up and pursue careers that have been held up in high esteem by the elite in the society.
** If you wanna make a career change where you want to try something totally new simply because you have that personal hunger for it - then go for it!!
And um, hopefully, your family/rents support you. Another important factor.**
In the second sentence you said what I was alluding to.
Xtreme, you said in your second post:
** “When in Rome do as the Romans do” **
I don’t see anything wrong with this. But this saying does not abbrogate one, for those who value something of their faith, of one’s responsibility that Allah (sbwt) has given us….to promote what is good and stop what is bad. Others can say this more properly/correctly.
**Do we hold onto old values and principles and therefore create a “them and us” or do we throw ourselves in wholeheartedly and join in all spheres of life? **
Really? There is a place today in Dallas where Christians are protesting nude clubs in their neighborhoods. There are strong voices about violence on T.V. There is an increasnig debate in U.S. over school uniforms, There is strong drive against the tobacoo industry, liqure industry, there are areas in U.S. where it is illegal to sell liqure. City, more so a town of 280,000 I left three months ago, is legally drive.
Lest you take me negatively, what I am trying to say is that even the society, atleast the U.S., more so then Europe, consideres bad that what we consider bad and good that we consider good. Obviously there are bound to be big differences amongst us due to the cultural divide but overseas, when dealing in public, we are Muslims first and citizens of nations second.
I concur with what Shirin said: ** You need to rememember that even within the prevailing culture there are differences. I know of people who would never drink even here and they are not Muslims. I know of people who are extremely modest and circumspect in their way of dressing and wouldn’t be caught dead in string bikinis. But it’s a free country. You can do what you want - well almost always!**
But I do not agree with her statement, since she aired her sentiment, I will air mine, that ** …I might not have problems going to a bar (here in Italy a bar sells everything, coffee and wine as well as brandy) to drink a cup of coffee and even buy a glass of wine for a friend who accompanies me. **
Muslims have a duty to tell others what’s right and wrong….after that the duty is finished. As such, your statement to ** buy a glass of wine for a friend** is incorrect. At this point, the only decision not to drink for self is the dislike of the drink due to taste, smell, alcohol content, timing of day. This would not have anything to do with the religious believes. Others can correct me…what is not allowed for one that person is prohibited from doing the same to another.
But most here are on the same page. Once our children grow up without the societies’ chains that bound us, they will begin to change the fabric of the societies we live in. It’s only a matter of time.
Nice responses from CoolDude, Jannu. While considering any of your move in society, personal matters, we should always uphold our religion, we should find out if it is allowed or not. It might be 'disturbing' to others, but even shaking hands with an non-blood relative lady is considered as haram as 'Zina'.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 26, 2001).]
Well there are two ways of looking at this from the way I see it. There is the religious POV where we do things according strictly to our religion which pretty much rules out a large percentage of career options.
Or if we consider ourselves British, American, Scandinavian, etc. then we go by the prevailing culture. In which case, we will have doctors, engineers, landscape gardeners and the rest - ok. but then the average Brit won't be discouraged from making a career in opening a tattoo parlour for example. So if we shun these type of professions aren't we creating a divide between ourselves and the local populace?
It's a serious question because there are plenty of questions being asked at the moment about levels of integration by the Pakistani community in England.
And as for the Islamic angle, well many Brits might well feel justified in saying if you want to practice Islam why don't you bug**r off to Iran then?"
And this in fact has been conveyed in many opinion pages of both popular and broadsheet newspaper editorial columns in the last few years, sometimes more politely, sometimes not.
Xtreme: for the tattoo parlor...it is considered an xception by the society...
We can keep things in perspective. I see that you are presenting situations that are not persued by the majority. If we look with a sense of calm, there are professions, other then the ones I said before, that the Muslims can go into. You are correct in saying that *then we go by the prevailing culture. In which case, we will have doctors, engineers, landscape gardeners and the rest *. You are partially correct. We live overseas with the same mindframe as those back home. You said *but then the average Brit won't be discouraged from making a career in opening a tattoo parlour *. No he won't but how many would accept his choice...not that anyone would tell him. So for a desi. If I see a desi tattoo shop, it's not my business to tell him otherwise.
I went to a local desi dig last night. There were two desi kids looking like gangsters, loud music from the car, bandana on the head, low hanging pants, banyaan, tattoos, etc. I looked at them and thoughts went thru my mind. But unless they infringe on my freedome to enjoy the environ then they can do what they want. It's another matter for me to keep my visit outdoors short to lessen the exposure of them on my kids.
There are professions that we can go into. Don't have to bring in Islam. What Islam detests is what in general* humans detest. But, to your point, if there are instances where a desi entry **as a Muslim is questioned then that type of work should not be engaged in. There are others who will do that work. How many Muslims in Pakistan are jamadaars? Some are....most aren't, within that profession, to use an extreme example.