Is it true that Shias hold the belief that koran has been altered by sunnis and it is not present in its original form, and that the original copy is kept by one of their invisible imams?
BELIEF IS NOT WHAT MIND POSSESSES, BELIEF IS WHAT POSSESSES THE MIND!
Yes, they do believe that, but lets see how many admit to the fact.
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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
WEll nobody can alter Quran,,, suni nor shia,....it will remain the unchanged till the day of judgement....
The Shi'a & Qur'an
One of the major "Battle Fields" between Muslims & Shi'ites is the later's belief regarding the authenticity of the Holy Qur'an which Allah [swt] promised to guard till the Day of Reckoning from any changes, saying: 15:9. "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)".
Disbelieving to the contrary leads to the denial of the entire Qur'an and abolishing the Shari'ah which is based on it mainly because, such belief puts every single verse under the probability of being distorted, and under such a probability no faith can be founded because faith cannot be established on probabilities, but on certainty.
As for the Shi'ites, they have a different views on the matter as we shall discover.
(1) What is the generally accepted Shi'ites view on the authenticity of the Qur'an?
The Shi'a, like the Muslims, believe that the Qur'an is the Words of Allah [swt]. However, unlike Muslims, they believe the distortion occured in the Qur'anic text as it occured in the past scriptures. Their authentic books contain over 2000 narration from their "INFALLIBLE" Imams verifying, affirming and confirming their theory of "Tahreef" (Distortion). To date, we are not aware of any Shi'a scholar who denies this theory in a whole and/or in part. To ascertain of this fact, we invite those who are unaware of this matter, Muslims or Shi'ites, to check and verify on their own, the sources contained herein. To illustrate, we will break the evidence into four catagories:
A. SCHOLARLY STATEMENTS:
In the earliest Shi'i Tafaseer, which is the source and base for all Tafseer books, al-Qummi clearly states the belief of the Shi'ites regarding the authenticity of the Book of Allah saying:
"Therefore, part of the Qur'an is an Abrogator and Abrogated, part is clear (Muhkam) and part is ambiguous (Mutashabih), part is in the general context, and part is particularized, part of it was placed forward and part is placed in the rear, part of it is severed and part of is connected, part of it is a letter in a place of another, and part of it is contrary to the manner revealed by Allah"
Tafseer al-Qummi, Introduction, vol.1, p.17
The said "august" Tafseer book was commended by the majority Shi'i scholars and, as Sayyid Tayyib Musawi al-Jaza'iri, wrote in its "Introduction":
"First: This Tafseer is the base of so many other Tafseer books.
Second: The narration contained therein are from the two Sadiqs as with the least medium of narrators, hence, author of al-Thari'ah (ila Tasaanif Ash-Shi'a: Agha Buzurg At-Tahrani) said: "In fact, it is the Tafseer of the two Sadiqs [as]".
Third: The author lived during the era of Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari [as].
Fourth: His father, who reported these narration to his son, was a companion of Imam Rida [as].
Fifth: (the book) Contains a wealth of knowledge on the virtues of Ahlul-Bayt [as] of which their enemies attempted to remove from the Holy Qur'an".
Sixth: (the book) Took care of clearing the meaning of so many misunderstood verses only through the guidance of Ahlul-Bayt, the Qur'an reciters".
The very next Tafseer which is another pillar in Shi'asm is Tafseer al-Ayyashi, who was one of al-Kash-shi's Sheikhs, and in the same rank of Thiqatul-Islam al-Kulayni, as ranked by At-Tahrani in his al-Thari'ah vol4, p.295. Al-Ayashi wrote in the "introduction" of his Tafseer, quoting the "Infallible" Abu Ja'far:
"Narrated Maysar from Abu Ja'far [as]: If it wasn't for the adding and deleting in the Book of Allah, our right (in Imamah - leadership) would've been clear for anyone with a sound mind".
Tafseer al-Ayyashi, Muhammad bin Mas'oud al-Ayyashi, Introduction
al-Bahrani wrote in his Tafseer al-Burhaan:
Know, that the truth which there is no way around it, because of the multi-narrations (mutawatir) and other, is that the Qur'an which we have in our hands today, has suffered some changes after the Messenger of Allah [pbuh&hf]. That those who collected it after him, have dropped and deleted many words and verses, and that the protected Qur'an from such changes and agreeable to the revelation of Allah Ta'ala is the one which was collected by Ali [as] and guarded until it reached his son al-Hasan [as] and so on until it ended in the possession of al-Qa'im (Mahdi) [as] who has it with him today.
Therefore, and in accordance to a clear narration which we will soon mention, when Allah the Exalted knew, in His perfect pre knowledge, that such evil deeds will be perpetrated by those who mischief in Religion, that whenever they see a clear declaration against their interests but beneficial to him (Ali) and his purified offspring [as], they will drop it immediately or distort it by changing.
When it was of His perfect Will and comprehensive Subtle, to guard the issue of al-Imamah and Walayah, and to protect the aspects of the virtues of him [pbuh&hf] and the Imams [as] in a manner that will be safe from the mess of the people of wasting and distorting, but at the same time, keeps to the people of truth the (hidden) meaning and maintain the charge, He did not contend only with what was clear in His Glorious Book, but made the overwhelming majority of such declarations in accordance with the inner meanings and exegetic methods but within the frame of what the outer revelation leads to. He further alluded to many of the proofs by way of signaling and expression of signs and allegories, thus His proofs on the creation is established even after its dropping by those who dropped them after they were clear in the best manner.
........ It is very clear and obvious to me in conclusion, the truthfulness of this theory (i.e the distortion of the Qur'an) after all the research and examination of the evidences to the point we can say it is part of the necessary beliefs of the Shi'ite Madhhab, and that it is one of the major consequences of usurping the Khilafah, so contemplate on it"
al-Burhaan fee Tafseer al-Qur'an: Sayyid Hashim At-Tubari al-Bahrani, Introduction: the second premise, volume 1, p.36, last paragraph, p. 49.
(2) Before continuing any further, some Shi'ites deny they ever believed in the theory of Tahreef, and strongly condemn it. Further, they have an evidence that some of their scholars also condemned this awful belief. How do you respond to them?
It is hard to imagine a single Shi'ite who does not believe that the Qur'an has been distorted by the Companions of the Messenger of Allah [saw], unless such a person is a newly made Shi'ite. Like all the ancient mysteries, the Shi'ites gradually present the fine secrets of their faith to the candidate and in accordance to their reception's ability.
On the other hand, when their belief became exposed to the Muslims, and the Shi'a were rejected as the body rejects waste, some of their Rabbis met to discuss and find away out of this delimma, agreed to conceal their true beliefs, and to clad their religion the garment of Taqiyyah to deceive the Muslims. The very first Rabbi who denied the Distortion theory was Ibn Babawaih al-Qummi, whome the Shi'ites called As-Sadooq (the Truthful)- died 381h -. Nevertheless, while the pros supported their stand with over 2000 evidence, as Rabbi Ni'matallah al-Jaza'iri stated, he did not produce a single narrartion from their "Infallible" Imams that proves the contrary. Let us examine what he wrote:
"Our belief is that the Qur'an which Allah the Exalted sent to His Messenger Muhammad [pbuh&hf] is what in between the two boards, and is what the people have in their hands, no more than that. Its total chapters for the people (i.e, the Muslims) is one hundred and forteen chapters, and to us (i.e, the Shi'ites) the chapters of "Ad-Duhaa" (93) and "Alam Nashrah" (94) is one chapter, and chapters "Li Eelaaf" (106) and "Alam Tara Kayfa" (105) are one chapter. He whom attributes to us the say that we believe there is more than that, is a liar. The narrations reported in the rewards for reading every chapter of the Qur'an, the reward for reading the entire Qur'an, the permissibility to read two chapters in a single Rik'ah, the outlawing of reading two Sura in a single rak'ah of Fard (salat) testifies to our claim regarding the Qur'an, i.e, the extent of it is what the people have in their hands. Furthermore, the narrations outlawing the recitation of the entire Qur'an in a single night, that such endeavor should not be in less than three days is a further testimony to our claim"
al-I'tiqaadaat: Ibn Babawaih al-Qummi, Iran 1224 ed.
This very same Rabbi, while he denies in the above book the Tahreef theory, affirms it in other few books of his. In his "al-Khisaal", he reported the following:
"Narrated to us Muhammad bin Omar al-Hafiz al-Baghdadi, known as al-Ji'aabi: Narrated to us Abdullah bin Bashir: Narrated to us al-Hasan bin al-Zaburqaan al-Muraadi: Narrated to us Abu Bakr bin 'Ayyash from al-Ajlah, from Abu AzZubair, from Jabir (bin Abdullah al-Ansaari) said: I heard the Apostle of Allah [pbuh&hf] saying:
On the Day of Judgment, three will come to Allah the Exalted complaining:
The first verse contradicts with beliefs of their Imaams that quran is altered, which is not true and Allah is protecting it.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
salam
LOL
Brother books can tell you all you need to know
BUT HAVE YOU MET A SHIA IN REAL LIFE WHO AKNOWLEDGES THE HOLY QURAN IS INCOMPLETE. HAVE YOU MET A SHIA WHO CLAIMS THAT HE HAS THE ONLY COMPLETE COPY OF THE HOLY QURAN
HA HA HA go ahead make your own books create your own books, you’ll always hit rock bottom
because every book has faults in it except the HOLY Quran
Wa-salam
Allah has Taken the garantee of the Quran so no one can change it period.
** my best friend is he who critizes my faults**
Imam jaffar-Saddiq
** Salman, I admire your posts because of all shias here you are the only one who is decent and do not use filthy language and personal attacks.
I have several shia friends who state that the current quran has been altered and the correct copy is with invisible Imam.
Is it correct or not?
What is your reply to references mentioned by watcher in the above post?**
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited December 31, 2000).]
As-salamun-Alaikum bro
To answer your question: yes there have been a minority of so called scholars who had claimed that the Quran has been altered. This is so because they found it hard to prove the legitimacy of imamat and wilayat in the Holy Quran.
Alhumdulillah, such ppl have been few in no. However the opponents of shiasim have shed light on them instead of the outstanding majority who are against this notion.
also note no shia book has been safe from forgery done during the years of the caliphate
btw i was just tring to be funny towards the watcher
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sometimes you do need humour
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Yes we do believe that our last Imam, Imam Al-Mahdi(AS) has gone into ghaibat.
But you have to understand what we mean by ghaibat, ‘occultation’
If you read the Holy Quran(Surah Al-Kahf) I think you’ll learn about the ashab-al-kahf, who with Allah’s mercy were hidden from the eyes of the ppl. they came out of ‘occultation’ for a brief period of time before they were put back in occultation. From my knowledge they’ll come back during the time of the last imam(AS).
A similar belief regarding the last Imam(AS) exists in shiasm. I mean there are historical records, to prove the existense of the Imam(AS) before his going into ghaibat. Moreover you have to realize out of all the 12 Imams(AS) of the shiites none of them died natural deaths, all of them were murdered, through poisoning torture, etc
So thats he was ‘hidden’ forom the eyes of the people by Allah(SWT) as per our belief.
Note there also records indicating that the caliph of the time sent orders for the killing of the Imam(AS). In other words they wanted to finish off the generation of Imams(AS).
I know that you guys believe that Imam will actually be born first.
You might question that the Imam must be an old man now. But with Allah The All Mighty’s Grace everything is possible. Prophet Nuh(AS) lived for I think 900 yrs.
Whatever ppl might the think but the truth is that both you and me will have the Imam(AS). Why? Becuase Prophet Isa(AS) will be one testifying, and we’all believe in him
again watcher, I was tryin to be like you
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wa-salam
Salam people,
this is probably the best discussion I’ve seen between our brother’s of the sunnah and the shia…mashallah
allah ka shukar alhumdulillah
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wasalam
“There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true”
Anonymous
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Salman-:
** As-salamun-Alaikum bro
REPLY *******
Alhumdulillah, such ppl have been few in no. However the opponents of shiasim have shed light on them instead of the outstanding majority who are against this notion.
REPLY*******
Yes we do believe that our last Imam, Imam Al-Mahdi(AS) has gone into ghaibat.
But you have to understand what we mean by ghaibat, 'occultation'
If you read the Holy Quran(Surah Al-Kahf) I think you'll learn about the ashab-al-kahf, who with Allah's mercy were hidden from the eyes of the ppl. they came out of 'occultation' for a brief period of time before they were put back in occultation. From my knowledge they'll come back during the time of the last imam(AS).
A similar belief regarding the last Imam(AS) exists in shiasm. I mean there are historical records, to prove the existense of the Imam(AS) before his going into ghaibat. Moreover you have to realize out of all the 12 Imams(AS) of the shiites none of them died natural deaths, all of them were murdered, through poisoning torture, etc
REPLY*******
REPLY*******
It is historically proven that under power struggle, family of prophet and their followers were killed relentlessly and they were under oppression for several years which generated severe hatred in this group of people and led to generation of shiaism.
My personal opininon is(and no one has to subscribe to it) that it was all power struggle and politically motivated and has nothing to do with who was right or wrong(It was a civil war).In other words, the other group would have suffered the same fate if they were minority.
BELIEF IS NOT WHAT MIND POSSESSES, BELIEF IS WHAT POSSESSES THE MIND!
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited January 01, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited January 01, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited January 01, 2001).]
As-Salamun-Alaikum
bro. First of all of these people used to exist. They never developed any followers.
You have to understand that anyone can call themselves a shia. The word I think roughly stands for ‘friend’. The whole name is Shian-e-Ali. So anyone can call themselves shian-e-Ali(friends of Ali(AS)), no matter how far they are from the religion.
However the Shia who are actually ‘muslims’ are the shia-ithne-asheri, those who believe in the finality of Prophethood, The ‘completion’ of the Holy Quran, Tawhid, etc
Now the second question was regarding the forgery in books of the shia. Well there is a method of categorizing hadith into ‘sahih’(correct) ‘mutbar’(okay) and ‘Weak’.
Typically a hadith is usually considered ‘sahih’ if it has been passed from one Imam to another, Since our belief is that Imams(AS) are infalliable. Also a hadith that has been repeatedly reported from diferrent Imams(AS) is considered sahih. This is called the ‘golden’ chain of narration. Hadith must also agree with the Holy Quran, ie that hadith should not come in conflict with an ayah of the Holy Quran. Anyhow I don’t have much knowledge on the categorization process of ahadith. But, from what I know that the Ahl-AL-Sunnah also categorize their hadith into weak and sahih ones. In this manner ‘forged’ ahadith can be separated from sahih ones.
You said the Whole killing of the Imam(AS) was more of a political battle. That’s certainly not the case with the Martydom of Imam Husayn(AS).
A civil war is one where two sides are at war and both sides have their own ‘good reasons’ to fight against each other. Like a fight for posession of land.
But Yazid as we all know was a kaafir. He wanted to completly alter Islam and bring his own rulings, wine music, etc. He got or ‘bought’ the pledge of every person. Everyone except Imam Husayn(AS). Now he knew that the only way to convince the ‘ummah’ of the legitimacy of his caliphate was if the grandson of the Prophet(SAWS) approved of his leadership. Then no one would argue. But Imam Husayn(AS) never gave the pledge for obvious reasons.
Therefore he knew as long as Imam Husayn(AS) was alive ppl would not ‘really’ except him as their leader.
Therefore my friend this was not the case where 2 political parties were at war. It was a war between right and wrong between Islam and Kufr.
Infact all of the Ummah owes a great debt to the Imam Husayn(AS).He saved Islam . If it weren’t for his sacrifice that included the merciless slaughter of his children, humilation of the corpses and other torture, than the ummah would never have realized who ‘yazid’ was.
The main purpose of Imam Husayn(AS)'s sacrifice was to EXPOSE THE FAULTS OF THE ENEMIES SO THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG BETWEEN MUSLIM AND KAFIR, WHO WAS WRONG AND WHO WAS RIGHT.
After the ppl learnt about the actions undertaken by Yazid’s army against the ahlul bayt of the Prophet, against his grandson. Then an uprising took place and yazid’s plan for the alteration of Islam was finally defeated. Other caliphs, true that most hated shias but they did not have a master plan of introucing ‘kufr’, as Yazid did.
So that’s one of the reasons I dont consider the incidents after the death of the Prophet Muhammad(SAWS) as entirely political in nature.
You said something about vagueness behind the belief of ‘ocultation’. Well you have to understand not everything is mentioned in The Holy Quran, atleast from the surface. Some incidences are mentioned as examples to prove that Allah(SWT) can do this if He wants.
We come across some miracles, performed by the Prophet(SAWS) by the will of Allah, throught reading ahadith. But we cant completely deny them just because they are not specifically mentioned in the Holy Quran. Allah(SWT) has given examples of events and miracles that ocurred during the times of the past Prophets(AS) to illustrate He can do whatever He wills and that such and such things are possible.
Unfortunately I cant think of a good enough miracle that was only mentioned in ahadith.
Nevertheless like I said the true Imam Mahdi(AS) will be the one for whom Isa(AS) will be the testifier. Then we for sure we will be united under one flag of Islam.
Its actually ‘fun’ debating with you instead of spending hours proving proofs to ppl that wives were not part of the Ahlul Bayt(AS)
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Take Care
Also thanks to the person who commented on the ‘good nature’ of our discussion
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Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
Jabir reported that he heard Imam Baqir saying: 'No one can claim that he has compiled the Quran as Allah revealed except a liar. The only person to compile it and memorise it according to its revelation was Ali ibn Abi Talib and the Imams who succeeded him. (Usul Kafi: 1:228) [thats usul kafi volume 1 and page # 288]
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A man said that someone was reciting the Quran in the company of Imam Ja’far. The narrator said that he heard certain verses in the recitation which were not according to the recitation of the people. Imam Ja’far told the person reciting: 'Do not recite like this. Recite as the people recite until the (promised) Mahdi arrives. When the Mahdi arrives, he will recite the Quran according to its original revelation and the Qu,ran compiled by Ali will be brought forward. (Ibid: 2.622) [thats volume 2 page # 622]
Allah says in Surah Ale Imraan (32): “Certainly Allah has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imraan above the (families of the) worlds.”
but shia…
Allamah Ali ibn Ibrahim AI-Qummi - one of the early Shi’ite commentators of the Quran said concerning this verse:
'The Imam said: 'The words: “The family of Muhammed” were also revealed along with “the family of Ale Imraan.” They (referring to the Companions of the Prophet S.A.W.) removed the words “The family of Muhammad” from the original text (Al-Qummi’s commentary:308). The allegation of removing the words preempts any possibility of abrogation. It is clear that the commentary is accusing the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) of distorting the Quran.
Allah says in Surah Taha (115):“And We had given Adam an order before, but he forgot and We did not find any resolve in him (to disobey the order).”
but shia…
Imam Ja’far is reported to have said that Allah had revealed this verse with the following words:
“We had ordered Adam before with some words about Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the Imams from their offspring but he (Adam) forgot.” Ja’far said: ‘By Allah, these were the words which were revealed to Muhammad.’ (Usul Kafi: 1:416 and the footnotes of Maqbool’s translation: 637)
Allah says in Surah Muhammad (9): *“That is because they resented what Allah revealed, so Allah in turn cancelled their deeds.”
but shia…
AI-Qummi has stated that Imam Muhammad Baqir said that Jibreel had transmitted this verse as: ‘That is because they resented what Allah revealed about Ali.’ But then the apostates removed Ali’s name (Ibid: 1011)
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May Allah shows these devient people the TRUE path to Islam and may he give them(shia) the ability to let go of the falsehood and embrace the TRUTH. Ameen.
Take it easy.
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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**
----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----
[quote]
A man said that someone was reciting the Quran in the company of Imam Ja'far. The narrator said that he heard certain verses in the recitation which were not according to the recitation of the people. Imam Ja'far told the person reciting: 'Do not recite like this. Recite as the people recite until the (promised) Mahdi arrives. When the Mahdi arrives, he will recite the Quran according to its original revelation and the Qu,ran compiled by Ali will be brought forward. (Ibid: 2.622)
[/quote]
Is this regarded as a weak hadith or sahih?
Cooldude thanks for bringing it up yes it is true(sahih)why read on!!
Shias say that you should not say walad-ualeen but you should say walazwa-leen!!
Ammen is an other way you guys add it but we dont after surah-e-fathiah!!
If this is not a case of reciting it right than what is??
** my best friend is he who critizes my faults**
Imam jaffar-Saddiq
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
**
Shias say that you should not say walad-ualeen but you should say walazwa-leen!!
**
[/quote]
do u mind explaining that?
as far as i understand, its a matter of pronounciation and not a shia/sunni issue
Al-Imran-3:160 **~~"If Allah helps you, none can overcome you: If He forsakes you, who is there, after that, that can help you? in Allah, then, Let believers put their trust."~~ **
watcher what the hell is ur problem..all the shias here told u many times that Quran has never been altered..u cant listen to us..but u have to go find stuff from books..i told u already that anything that contradicts Quran is rejected by shia Alims..we dont believe al kaafi to be 100% correct..there are some things which are not accepted by shia's..this book is written by a human..only Quran is perfect
u have been told this so many times but u are always bringing up shit...what kind of a muslim r u?? Quran has never been changed..get that in ur damn head
[quote]
Originally posted by Sheraz CT:
*we dont believe al kaafi to be 100% correct..there are some things which are not accepted by shia's..this book is written by a human..only Quran is perfect
*
[/quote]
and yet u kept criticizing the Moosa(ra)/stones/ghusl/clothes incident from bukhari.....
the quran is the only perfect book we, muslims, have.
[quote]
Originally posted by X_Communist:
** and yet u kept criticizing the Moosa(ra)/stones/ghusl/clothes incident from bukhari.....
the quran is the only perfect book we, muslims, have.
**
[/quote]
well its the sunnis who think bukhari has no faults..u finally admitted it here..thank u
ur welcome for admitting with me that the QURAN is the ONLY PERFECT book we have.
yes x com i hope all the sunnis agree with us