** that attachment by 2nd khalifa was in reply to people who were issuing fatwas against Jamaat.** If ALL muslim have the same aqeedah of Imam Mahdi (AS) to be appeared in the latter days, and if people recognize Him and accepts Him makes them kaafir then people who are actually issuing fatwas are the real kaafir for rejecting the ahadith of Muhammad PBUH, and rejected His truthfulness. It is not to be taken the other way. We accepted the person who was being prophesised , but people issuing fatwas against us will become kaafir for rejecting ahadith e nabwi SAW.
I disagree, "that attachment by 2nd khalifa was in reply to people who were issuing fatwas against Jamaat"
you said his statement is "in reply to people who were issuing fatwa" - look who were issuing fatwa. that is not true. His statement is for all those people who deny a "Mamoor" from Allah. Please go back to the scanned image and read again.
reply given above. He went on to say that people are considered Kaafir even if they have not heard the name of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Christians are example, however they do accept the prophet of Allah namely Hazrat Isa (AS) but denied Muhammad PBUH's truthfulness. Kaafir my friend is a very vast term, which when used means denier of everything. Therefore, kaafir of Muhammad PBUH are christians and jews, kaafir of Imam Mahdi (AS) are the Muslims.
You are making the same mistake again. (it could either be intensional or un-intensional). Here are you contradiction your own statement even in the same statement.
a) Once you are saying "Kaafir is a vast term"
b) then you are saying "Kaafir means denier of everything"
c) then you concluded "Kaafir of Muhammad(PBUH) are christians and jews (my note: but they are kaafir)
d) then you added Kaafir of Imam Mahdi (AS) are Muslims (my question: how come they are muslim. you could not understand the whole scanned page of your Khalifa and beating around the bush). Why dont you believe in his FATWA.
La ilaaha IllAllahu Muhammadur RasulAllah. I am Muslim by your simple definition of Muslim. Glad you agreed with me that anything that a muslim is not suppose to believe will make him Kafir. Believing in Imam Mahdi is part of Islam and can no way be taken out of Islam. What our 2nd Khalifa said has been answered above.
My point is, as you said "a muslim is NOT suppose to believe will make him Kafir"
Here NOT suppose to believe is the FALSE Mehdi. Believing in FALSE Mahdi is NOT part of Islam. Therefore, "EVEN" if he recites Kalima he is a Kaafir. Here i used the same "EVEN" which your 2nd Khalifa used.
example 1: (1) Being a Muslim (suppose) what will be your fatwa (official statement) for the person who claim and his followers follow him, If let say today a person whose name is Zaid claim that he is a prophet and/or imam Mehdi. and on top of that if he claims that he is the same person whose is prophesied in hadith. plus he says that he recite the same kalima which other muslims recite?
For me, he will be a kafir, because his claim does not fits in my belief system; which can be based on thing, it can be Quran, Hadith, and/or Aql'.
example 2:
Believe in Jesus (AS) took the followers of Jesus (AS) out of the fold of the religion of Jews. whatever you name it. They are not Jews anymore. They are Christens now. I would say All jews were muslim (there religion was Islam) Just a second before the claim of Jesus (AS). Since Jesus was the true prophet. All those jews (muslims of that time) who rejected Jesus, right at that point became Kafir. Similarly all Christens were muslims (their faith was islam) just a second before the claim of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Since Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was a True prophet. All those christens (muslims of that time) who rejected Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), right at that point became Kafir. It really does not matter If the person who is making a claim is bringing a new religion or not. He is a mamoor, as your Khalifa said. Mamoor can be a prophet, rasool or imam. (dont ask me the defination of imam, rasool, and nabi, i know there is a difference) IF you go on step further. Musalima Kazab (the false prophet in history), when he made his claim all those muslims (by faith) becamse Kafir "EVEN" if they had the believe in the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). This false belief took all those people out of the fold of Islam (the deen e haqq). Same is the case with Mirza and his followers. That is a seperate issue; to see whether his claim was right or wrong. He and his follower are out of the fold of Islam (the religion). (and it does not matter, if he bringing a new religion or using the same like Jesus) Even if he is not making a new religion he will be considered Kafir. Remember; this is the same "EVEN" which your 2nd Kalifah used in his fatwa (official statement).
I believe Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AleheSalam) to be the same one who Hazrat Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah always be upon Him) prophesised, until you can disapprove me, until then no fatwas of Kafir can be used upon me.
This does not make any sense to me, If your believe in Mirza is disapproved, it is definite that the fatwa of kufr will be used on you. It is absolutely essential in that case. You can consider yourself with in the fold of islam as muslim like followers of Musalima Kazaab even if they were reciting Kalima and calling themself as muslims. Dont ask me for the reference, it is known to everybody.
By this definition of yours, if i was a christian i would use the word Kaafir for you for believing in the false prophet Muhammad (nauzubillah). Fatwas mean nothing my dear respect brother in Islam... fatwas have never changed ones heart..fatwas can make the govt act strictly and force them to act their way but it never worked and it never will.
I have no doubt about it. I am 1000% sure. If and only IF christianity is the TRUE faith (whatever you name it - deen-e-haqq, islam, deen-e-mobeen etc etc) and If and only IF the Muhammad is the false prophet (nauzobillah, nauzobillah). and IF i follow Muhammad. I will be a Kaafir 1000%.
and if Muhammad (PBUH) is the true prophet, right away you will be out of the fold of Deen-e-Haqq. No Fatwa is required for that to diclare it.
You can use this statement as Fatwa, or just a statement for your own pocket book, keep it under the pillow or implement in your govt. It does not matter. I do not give any value to Fatwa; and not scared of it. It is just an official statement from an office. That is it. If it is true, its true, its has certain value and if it is false, its just a peace of garbage, i will put it in the garbage. I have no concern about it.
I am disturbed to see the conflicting statement by you and your fellows about Muslims. here are the posts one by one. I will bold and underline your statement to re-consider.
POST 1
Answer 2 : Throughout the Ahmadiyya literature you will not find a single line addressing the rest of the Muslims as "Kafir" but rather " non-ahmadi ". Christians openly say that they dont believe in Muhammad PBUH, hence Muslim calling them kafir is acceptable by them. You openly say that you dont believe in the promised Messiah (AS), and hence we call you kafir of promised Messiah (AS), never have we ever used the term kafir for Muslims. When they themselves say they are Muslims, who are we really to judge them? however, same thing cannot be apply to Ahmadi Muslims around the world. When they openly say Muhammad PBUH is who they believe as Allah's apostle, the highest of the messengers, you cannot label Ahmadis as 'kafir'.
but your 2nd Khalifa's statement in the scanned image says something else. you are using the term kafir for muslim because they denied Mirza.
POST 2
Let me give it another try...Kafir simply means the denier. Now, you openly say you dont believe Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS , that makes you kafir. However, because you are the follower of Muhammad (PBUH), the master of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS), and you do believe in Muhammad PBUH , this makes you Muslim but kafir of Promised Messiah (AS). This same rule cannot be applied to Ahmadi Muslims because they are firm believers of Islam and also believe in Allah's true apostle (PBUH).
views of 'Muslims' will always be the same despite coming of Imam Mahdi (AS), ( if he, according to you still hasnt arrived ). He (AS) will be a false claimant in the eyes of other Muslims, and then the fatwa of kufr again. It is a never ending issue my friend. When we both hold the same beliefs, I accepted the person who was suppose to come, you are still waiting, how does either one of this makes the other kafir?. But because you issued the fatwa on Ahmadis first of being kafir, this fatwa goes back to you, because you being holding the same beliefs and not accepting the person makes you kafir , ( the promised Messiah/Imam Mahdi (AS)'s kafir ). We have not enough courage to declare anyone kafir if He is the follower of Islam.
a person can not be a muslim and a kafir at the sametime. this does not make sense to me.
POST 3
Ahmadis believe that no one has the right to expel a 'kalima go' and claiming to be a muslim, a non-muslim. Thats why we ahmadis call non-ahmadis as non-ahmadi muslims.
I am not talking about THE RIGHT to expel. I am saying "becoming". A person becomes Kafir. Nobody expels him.
- I suggest you to read the statement of your 2nd Khalifa again. I hope you will understand it.
Once you accept that All other Muslims became Kafir (or are Kafir) because of deniel of Mirza and vise versa; I will move aheard to Quran and Hadith to see if Mirza's claim was true or false.