really aq?
do you wanna think about that statement for a sec and see if there are any exceptions? according to your previous statements, the rules change with regards to certain people and its fair game to determine wot is in their hearts and to punish them for it.
i agree with kay that what determines vice and virtue is your intention and your ability to be able to commit a sin and still refrain from it. For example, you can’t be rewarded for not committing adultery if you aren’t even able to or refraining from bad-nazri if you’re blind.
really aq?
do you wanna think about that statement for a sec and see if there are any exceptions? according to your previous statements, the rules change with regards to certain people and its fair game to determine wot is in their hearts and to punish them for it.
i agree with kay that what determines vice and virtue is your intention and your ability to be able to commit a sin and still refrain from it. For example, you can't be rewarded for not committing adultery if you aren't even able to or refraining from bad-nazri if you're blind.
Yep... True... Allah knows what in the heart and if the person is a better muslim or not... however, when it comes to outright denying the fundamentals of Islam and groups which are declared NON-Muslim based from the reasoning provided through Quran and Ahaadeeth, there is something called - distinction between Muslim and Non-Muslim...
aq yaar you’re so full of it that its not even funny…
so i was right that your earlier statement wasn’t complete… you keep a ‘however’ for cases that suit your agenda?
Every sect is considered a non-muslim by some other sect so by your reasoning we have the right to call someone a non-muslim caz some other person said so, but make em instant muslims when it suits the purpose… very honest indeed
can munafeqeen be true muslims? can their word against any people be given any importance regardless of the fact that the agenda requires us to do so?
if i know in my heart that a person holds a certain belief that is against the principles of islam, and my previous statements and those of people i consider my leaders in faith make it clear that such a belief in their view is against the principles of islam and the holder of such a belief is declared by them to be a non-muslim, can i say that such a belief is tolerable and the holder still a muslim, just so that i can get one over another group of people? if i do such a thing, will i not be a munafiq that i say stuff which i do not believe in?
your view, based on your previous statements, is that munafeqeen can still do jihaad and service for islam and that we should look up to them.
we can not call Christians a Muslim or a jew to be a muslim…
The thread is about Muslims… it’s not about sects … It’s you who are putting words in my mouth by saying that I declare “a sect as non-muslim” .. there is a news flash… I do not believe in sects in Islam… However, there are groups who use the name of Islam and their beliefs are a direct conflict with the findamental beliefs of Islam…
Stop putting words in my mouth by interpretting your whims and wishes
Chacha MiyaaN… your query was totally off topic as you are discussing who is muslim and who is not… The thread is about who can be better Muslim and does the environment play a major role in becoming good or bad muslim…
I do not find a need to reply to your rhetoric when you are basing your assumption on things “which are not even mentioned here”
Please, prove first that I declared one sect to be doomed and other sect to be the winner as YOU tried to drag the discussion along those lines - Sadly.
Let’s start from here and see where you are coming from or going to?
As for your query who are muslims… My belief tells me that anyone is a muslim who witnesses to the following 7 articles of Iman-e-Muffassil:
Believe in One God - Allah
Believe in All Prophets
Believe in the FINALITY of the Prophet Muhammad (There is no zimmi nabi as well - FINAL means Final)
Believe in all Divine Books given to prophets including Quran
Believe in Angels
Believe in Destiny that whatever good or bad, it happens with the permission of Allah
Believe in Day of Judgement/Resurrection
All the sects you have problem with follow the above guidelines and those who do not are conflicting with the fundamentals - good?
this whole discussion started from a statement of yours
if you promise not to run away from the discussion or lock the thread, then i can call you on that last post of yours and especially the last statement you made in it and we'll see if you put other conditions besides the ones you stated already or not... keep in mind people have been declared kaafir long before ahmadis
sorry to say but my statement was “Allah knows what’s in the heart” was directed towards if a person is a good muslim or not …
your insecurities about my belief that ahmadies are not muslims is a subject you should rather discuss in religion forum…
Ofcourse likes of Bihais, Khalifa Rashad, Pervez Ahmed, Muselma Kazzaab and many others who declared a prophethood after Muhammad:saw2: are considered Non-muslims… It’s not about ahmadies - which by the way you brought it in… We were NOT discussing Ahmadies here - please, do not get excited
I had no intention of discussing any of this in the religion forum... i know how to open a thread if i wanted thank you
discussions are never linear
this whole thing started from a statement of yours and developed into wot we have here... you didn't need to split it as my last statement that is not displayed here made it clear that i wasn't discussing it any further so lets just delete this thread and move the posts back
i don't see you splitting any other thread ... i can provide many examples where the stuff being dicussed is not even remotely related to the topic
I had no intention of discussing any of this in the religion forum... i know how to open a thread if i wanted thank you
In such case, you do not need to derail a thread to a totally different topic? just be responsible and open a thread if you know how to open it.. masha Allah.
discussions are never linear
but can they be off topic in a way that it creates a new topic of its own? sure... should it mean that such discussion should be separated to get a fruitful result... why not?
this whole thing started from a statement of yours and developed into wot we have here...
that's because you decided to start a new topic out of it ... it's okay to take the things out of context and start a new thing but it's also ok to give it a new direction in a fruitful discussion without hurting the other discussion.. agreed?
you didn't need to split it as my last statement that is not displayed here made it clear that i wasn't discussing it any further so lets just delete this thread and move the posts back
not in my domain anymore... however, you raised questions to faith of people and now you do not want answers? :) seems like you just wanted to debate for the sake of debate?
i don't see you splitting any other thread ... i can provide many examples where the stuff being dicussed is not even remotely related to the topic
Also provide if in such threads, a totally different topic was discussed to such a length or was it just haphazard off topic replies without any particular topic to discuss.. also please, provide if someone was making a personal calls to ONE individual on his faith while ignoring the rest of the others who have the same faith as that individual..
If Admins feel that the move was wrong, they can undo it...
I hope and pray that you get the answers to your query.... this is the best favour I could do for you regarding your concerns... that is point the discussion to the relevent forum...
musalmaan honay ka muzahira chal raha hai
(There is no zimmi nabi as well - FINAL means Final)