Three major religions that believe in divinity and revelation as the fountain head of their religion are Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Religious scholars, theologians and philosophers of these religions believe in Omniscience of God (Allah, SWT).
The doctrine of Omniscience of Allah (SWT) has given rise to two factions within each religion namely Predestinarians and Libertarians. Where as former faction believe that Allah’s omniscience is incoherent with man’s free will of choice, the later believes in the coherence of human free will.
Please share your thoughts in conjunction with the your conception of Allah’s omniscience and our independence
Maybe I am missing something but i do not see the relationship of our independence with Allah's omniscience?Omniscience is an attribute of Allah while our indepndence is a state of existence
^ Indeed you are missing the point "omniscience" is absolute awareness. If Allah knows every thing, then Allah has written every thing, if Allah has written every thing then its "destiny", and "fate" which hinders the concept of man being "independent" in actions. ( just explanation, not my view)
Allah Almighty is the Creator and thus has the most power being omnipotent. no one can deny this. human condition is destined to be a strife.
given that, independence may not be an absolute property of humanity, but the same strife has to be borne by making use of the will power to stand up right with a fair sense of difference between rights and wrongs, and to fulfill the obligations of a responsible and moral living in accordance with the teachings of a faith that Almighty has established for humanity.
even to be human, without being from a given faith, one has to be moral and use one's reasoning for living a life that has not hurt anyone unduly nor created harm for ownself. & in that case, existence of humans is based on predestined fate chartered by Almighty together with what the humans do to bring on a certain fate for themselves.
consistent personal responsibility cannot be forgotten, merely because humans believe that Almighty has predestined fate for everyone.
^ Thanks, it makes a lot of sense, however course of action is always drawn out of our strong belief. A person who is Predestinarians would not consider his actions , good or bad, accountable, or would he?
I will come back with my detailed point of view ( Inshallah).
^ Indeed you are missing the point "omniscience" is absolute awareness. If Allah knows every thing, then Allah has written every thing, if Allah has written every thing then its "destiny", and "fate" which hinders the concept of man being "independent" in actions. ( just explanation, not my view)
We have to differentiate between writing and knowing. Allah knows as oppsed to He has written.What does it mean?Well Allah knows what is going to happen - He is not making it happen although He can if He wants(do not misunderstand this part).We are totally independent meaning - I have complete freedom to choose my way of life - I can follow "a" religion or I can be an atheist.Making an attempt to further understand there are 2 concepts we need to understand as far as Allah's system in this world - Qada and QadarQada - things that are out of our controlQadar - things that are within our control
beliving in an Almighty is a selfish act too, if you think of it, that someone is taking care of ourselves. no?
the highest degree of regard for that Almighty to me is that even when i know that i am protected by Almighty's mercy that i myself take on the responsibility as a human being who has moral obligation personaly and fulfill it on my own for my own sense of being dutiful and be helping to other people who are less able to help themselves.
strong belief does not mean that one has to be dogmatic, and orthodox like something such as if i did not say pbuh every time continuously for a few times that i referred to Prophet's name, that i am sinful. or that if the general ideation is that a woman can be a distraction when enters a mosque.
to by pass self rightousness of this sort, which almost is exclusive and makes the followers blind to the basic fact of Islam that is it not a deen of compulsion and no peace, but on the contrary it invites to following its teachings and not forces them per violance.
thus, a predestined person does not necessarily have to think that it is alright for him or her to sin. & normally sensible people know this and hopefully they are not comitting errors and gaining vices out of carelessness.
best,
Dushwari
^ Thanks, it makes a lot of sense, however course of action is always drawn out of our strong belief. A person who is Predestinarians would not consider his actions , good or bad, accountable, or would he?
I will come back with my detailed point of view ( Inshallah).
Three major religions that believe in divinity and revelation as the fountain head of their religion are Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Religious scholars, theologians and philosophers of these religions believe in Omniscience of God (Allah, SWT).
The doctrine of Omniscience of Allah (SWT) has given rise to two factions within each religion namely Predestinarians and Libertarians. Where as former faction believe that Allah’s omniscience is incoherent with man's free will of choice, the later believes in the coherence of human free will.
Please share your thoughts in conjunction with the your conception of Allah's omniscience and our independence
Peace bro.
As far as Islam is concerned both of these factions are incorrect. Muslims should neither believe in total Divine domination nor should we believe in total freedom. There is trust of a position beyond rational comprehension that lies somewhere between these two domains.
^ Indeed you are missing the point "omniscience" is absolute awareness.** If Allah knows every thing, then Allah has written every thing**, if Allah has written every thing then its "destiny", and "fate" which hinders the concept of man being "independent" in actions. ( just explanation, not my view)
I dunt disagree with u or am not calling u wrong but what kind of Logic is this, If ALLAH knows everything Then He has written everything ?
I dunt disagree with u or am not calling u wrong but what kind of Logic is this, If ALLAH knows everything Then He has written everything ?
Peace aqeel123
You are right ... It is not hardy logic ... there are holes in that theory, just because something is known it does not mean that it has been influenced by the One Who Knows. Which is the reason why I said Muslims are neither believers in predestination to the extent of where there is no say from us, nor do we believe in the total authority of our decisions being a means to determine our future.
However, in defence of IntelliPhant he did say (that it as not his view).
إِيَّاك نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِين
Iyyāka na'budu wa iyyāka nasta'īn
You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help
This is not to be taken lightly, the condition of the Muslim belief is in what is apparent and in what is hidden. This verse explains how we take our decision first ... to "worship God" then we supplicate "asking Him for help". The former action is apparent in the 'human decision' and the second action is again apparent in the inherent 'trust' in the 'guidance' or influence of God.
Hence the predestiny puritans will reject that initial decision to pray. Whereas those who view themselves as free, will never raise their hands to ask for guidance.
However, there are deeper meanings to the concept,
"You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help"
The first could be a tacit reminder that regardless of our choice our separate parts are in a state of worship (submission) to the Will of God. And the second part is we ask from God only based upon our OWN choosing.
The only thing I can say is that our choice is intertwined with the Will of God, His Will dominates in areas that we have less awareness such as the beating of our hearts, then when a choice presents itself from the universe that is Sustained by God, we make a choice, then Allah (SWT) moves the universe so as to faciliate our decision whether it is good or bad so we can see that our decision has affected our outcome.
We have to differentiate between writing and knowing. Allah knows as oppsed to He has written.What does it mean?Well Allah knows what is going to happen - He is not making it happen although He can if He wants(do not misunderstand this part).We are totally independent meaning - I have complete freedom to choose my way of life - I can follow "a" religion or I can be an atheist.Making an attempt to further understand there are 2 concepts we need to understand as far as Allah's system in this world - Qada and QadarQada - things that are out of our controlQadar - things that are within our control
There is absolutely a huge difference between knowing a thing and directing it when talking in human terms, however when we speak about Allah (SWT) with all the rightfully attributed powers and particularly with the belief of Allah being Omniscient, Omnipotent and omnipresent, the scenario of “knowing” and “writing” changes with reference to the impact that it can create on our lives and freedom of actions. The purpose of this thread is not to identify what concept is right and what is wrong, but just to know how “we” ,as individuals, justify or otherwise the impact of Allah’s omniscience in our freedom of actions. I would appreciate if you come up with an analogy as to how Allah (SWT) knows every thing, when he has not written it.
beliving in an Almighty is a selfish act too, if you think of it, that someone is taking care of ourselves. no?
the highest degree of regard for that Almighty to me is that even when i know that i am protected by Almighty's mercy that i myself take on the responsibility as a human being who has moral obligation personaly and fulfill it on my own for my own sense of being dutiful and be helping to other people who are less able to help themselves.
strong belief does not mean that one has to be dogmatic, and orthodox like something such as if i did not say pbuh every time continuously for a few times that i referred to Prophet's name, that i am sinful. or that if the general ideation is that a woman can be a distraction when enters a mosque.
to by pass self rightousness of this sort, which almost is exclusive and makes the followers blind to the basic fact of Islam that is it not a deen of compulsion and no peace, but on the contrary it invites to following its teachings and not forces them per violance.
thus, a predestined person does not necessarily have to think that it is alright for him or her to sin. & normally sensible people know this and hopefully they are not comitting errors and gaining vices out of carelessness.
best,
Dushwari
Dushwari, no one can and should claim the prerogative of Allah’s (SWT) clemency unless precondition of recognizing, appreciating and submitting to Allah has already been achieved. And again submitting completely to Allah is not manifested in saying your prayers, reciting Holy Quarn, and performing other religious rituals, it is only manifested when we will live a balanced life, with all the highest moral values in all walks of life. So the highest degree of regard that you have referred to is already built into the “memorandum of submission”.
I mentioned strong belief in the sense that I will be truthful entirely only if I have a very strong faith in the outcome of “speaking truth”, no matter what apparent ramification it may bring to my worldly life. My course of action about speaking the truth should not be inspired by the apparent fallout, but by my belief. What you have spoken about being dogmatic is not the soul but mere rituals without meaning, and true attribution.
Last part is exactly what I wanted to know as to how you think about it.
Thanks
There is absolutely a huge difference between knowing a thing and directing it when talking in human terms, however when we speak about Allah (SWT) with all the rightfully attributed powers and particularly with the belief of Allah being Omniscient, Omnipotent and omnipresent, the scenario of “knowing” and “writing” changes with reference to the impact that it can create on our lives and freedom of actions. The purpose of this thread is not to identify what concept is right and what is wrong, but just to know how “we” ,as individuals, justify or otherwise the impact of Allah’s omniscience in our freedom of actions. I would appreciate if you come up with an analogy as to how Allah (SWT) knows every thing, when he has not written it.
Peace IntelliPhant
Allah (SWT) is also The Just and The Truthful ... When He tells us that we will be punished for doing such and such and that we are given choice by His Grace and Power then we must admit the responsibility of the choices we make. Even though we may not be able to answer the question we know that Allah (SWT) has told us that the choice is indeed ours.
However, He has also told us that those who think themselves self-sufficient are subject to a downward spiral to ruin. We need to understand our need to be guided and ability to choose.
Make the intention to seek guidance
Act to seek guidance
Receive guidance
Intend to act upon the received guidance
Act upon the guidance i.e. make the choice
Whilst doing so believing that all good in that act comes from God and all bad comes from ones own shortfalls.
Acting upon the action that was based on the guidance i.e. acting in accordance with the choice
Trusting the action to be good, but avoiding the thought of despair in that action being wrong and avoiding the thought of total confidence in that action to be right.
We fire an arrow on a target that arrows path is its destiny, but that path can be influenced by external factors such as the wind. If we have not trained our eyes not have we calculated the position well then we blame factors beyond our control. It is in our control to ask for guidance from The One Who has Power. Don't contemplate if you have the tawfiq to ask God for guidance ... All please read this and just ask Him for guidance it is easy enough.
^ **I **appreciate and agree with your previous post about this and the latest one. Your point of view is a clear reflection of your meritorious strong faith. Some religious scholars like Moulana Moududi has summed up this discussion with a note that it can not be understood because of human inability to understand metaphysical concepts.
where as this belief that we should look nowhere but to Allah (SWT) for guidance , we have also been invited to “contemplate” within the guidance that has already been given to us. I just ask you one question, is there any harm in asking someone who has already been blessed with the guidance?
^ **I **appreciate and agree with your previous post about this and the latest one. Your point of view is a clear reflection of your meritorious strong faith. Some religious scholars like Moulana Moududi has summed up this discussion with a note that it can not be understood because of human inability to understand metaphysical concepts.
where as this belief that we should look nowhere but to Allah (SWT) for guidance , we have also been invited to “contemplate” within the guidance that has already been given to us. I just ask you one question, is there any harm in asking someone who has already been blessed with the guidance?
Peace IntelliPhant
The question is a dangerous one ... When I was younger I used to play a game ... I used to lay still in bed thinking for the moment when I should just get up, but I would hold myself back thinking about all the conscious effort required to get up, then I would urge the moment to come and draw back again and before long I would see myself going into an iterative process of steps in my mind before long I would just get up in a flinch without really thinking about it.
It is this reflex action I feel that dominates the decision making process towards a path of guidance ... unfortunately our intellects are negatively wired against our fitrah. The more we ponder the more we understand true enough, but the more we ponder the more we delay and force ourselves in to a resistance which is of trying to fathom the unfathomable. The state of submission is that we submit to the Word over our need to understand it. Though once we have submitted to it understanding it becomes important because it increases the level of conviction. We should analyse therefore after the act rather than before it, because if we try to evaluate the benefit of Salah for example from a distance then we are falling prey to judgementalism without the experience to support our conclusions.
The best way to demonstrate freedom of choice is to 'do' the best way to demonstrate God's Will is to try to do the impossible. The best way to live is to obey and submit to the Word - which is the Qur'an and the injunctions which go with it.
Furthermore those who are guided always tell us to avoid rationalising the Free Will - God's Will dichotomy.
Just to sum up the whole thing in few sentences, Allah has decreed everything due to His prior knowledge of how things will happen and He wrote it down in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz. We believe that nothing happens without the permission and will of Allah Ta'ala. Humans do not have free will, we only have freedom of making free choices which is exercised within the frame work of Allah Ta'ala's will. In other words, when we want to do something Allah permits us to do it because it has been decreed that we will do it (prior knowledge). This does not mean that He is forcing us to do A or B.
Having prior knowledge of something doesn't mean that the person is forcing you to do it. For example if a teacher knows that one of his student will fail in the final exam due to his poor performance in the whole year, it does not mean that the teacher is failing the student deliberately or forcing him to get failed.