Allaah(swt)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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as we Know as Muslims Allaah(swt) is NOTHING like us and to say he is Kufr ad could make one a Kafir!

Allaah(swt) Said in the Qur’aan
“And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.” (Al-Ikhlas 112:4)

Allaah -the Mighty and Majestic -also says: “And do not put forward any similitudes for Allaah.Indeed,Allaah knows and you do not know”. (16:74)

now In the Qur’aan Allaah(swt) mentions His(swt’s) attributes such as Hand, Face, Eyes etc. now what does this mean? how should we as Muslims who have a limited mind take these verses in the Qur’aan??

well obviously we cannot liken Allaah(swt) to his creation as Allaah(swt) has already denied this in Surah Ikhlas and many other verses. so what now?? do we intrepret the verses?? do we leave them without askin “how”?

Well we must always refer back to what our classical scholars said about the issue at Hand…

Imaam al-Awzaee(He is Abdur-Rahmaan ibn 'Amr al-Awzaee-the scholar, worshipper and mujaahid.Al-Haakim said: “Al-Awzaee was the Imaam of the people of his time ingeneral ,and he was the Imaam of the people of Shaam in particular.” He died in Bayroot,in the year 157H.Refer to at-Tadhkirah(1/178 and al-Hilyah(6/135) for his biography. )(rah) said:
**'I asked az-Zuhree and Makhool about the aayaat pertaining to the sifaat (Attributes of Allaah), so they said:Leave them as they are" (5) **

Al-Waleed ibn Muslim (rah) said:
**"I asked Maalik,al-Awzaee,Layth ibn Sad and Sufyaan ath-Thawree -(rah) about the reports related about the Attributes, so they all said: “Leave them as they are, without asking how” (Related by al-Aajuree in ash-Shareeah(p.314),al-Bayhaqee in al-Asmaa was-Sifaat(p.453) and also al-Itiqaad(p.118) and the isnaad is Hasan) **

Al-Awzaeee (rah) said:
**“We - whilst the Tabioon were many - would say: Indeed Allaah -the Most perfect-is above His throne,and we have eemaan in what is related to the Sunnah about the Attributes” (Related by al-Bayhaqee in al-Asmaa was-Sifaat(p.408).The isnaad is jayyid,as al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fathul-Baree(13/406) **

Imaam Maalik(rah)-said:
**"Al-Istiwaa is known,and how is unknwon,to have eemaan in it is obligatory and to question it is an innovation ". Then he said to the questioner: “I do not think except that you are an evil man”. So he ordered him to be expelled (.Related by al-Bayhaqee in al-Ismaa was-Sifaat(p.516) with the wording: "Al-Istiwaa is not unknown and how is unknown, to have eemaan in it is obligatory and to question it is an **
innovation". )

Ibn Qudaamah (d. 620H) said: “The way of the Salaf is to have eemaan (faith) in the Names and Attributes of Allaah that He has described Himself with in His Revelation, or upon the tongue of His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) - without increasing nor decreasing in it, nor exceeding the limits, nor explaining them (i.e. like the Mu’tazilah), nor making ta’weel of them in a way that opposes the dhaahir (apparent) meaning.” (Dhamm ut-Ta’weel of Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee (p.11) )

'Abdulaah ibn al-Mubaarak (13) (rah) said: **“We know that our Lord-the Most Perfect - is above the heavens, above his Arsh (throne), seperate from His creation”(Related by ad-Daarimee in ar-Radd alaal-Jahmiyyah(np.23),Abdullaah ibn Ahmad in as-Sunnah(no.22) and al-Bukharee in Khalq Afaalul-Ibaad(no.8).It was declared Saheeh by Ibn Taymiyyah in al-Hamawiyyah(no.41). **

now make note when you hold this kinda opinion you will be called an anthropomorphist(one who likens Allaah(swt) to the creation). This is hoever False and a pure slander!

statement of Alee ibn al-Madeenee (teacher of al-Bukhaaree) who said:

**“When someone says so and so is an anthropomorphist, we come to know that he is a Jahmee.”
(Reported by al-Laalakaa’ee in Sharh Usool I’tiqaad no.306). And Aboo Haatim ar-Raazee (d.277H) who said: “A sign of the Jahmiyyah is that they call Ahlus-Sunnah anthropomorphists.” (From his book Ahlus-Sunnah p.21).
**
At-Tirmidhee writes in his Sunan (1/128-129):
**"It has been said by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth that there is no resemblance to the Attributes of Allaah. And the Lord - the Blessed, the Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: Affirm these narrations, have faith in them and do not deny them, and do not ask how. The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, ibn 'Uyaynah and 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about these ahaadeeth: ‘Leave them as they are without asking how.’ Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is making resemblance (tashbeeh)! However, Allaah - the Most High - has mentioned in various places in His Book the Attribute of Hand, Hearing and Seeing. So the Jahmiyyah make false interpolation (ta’weel) of these verses and explain them in a way other than that explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand. And they say that the meaning of Hand is: Power. Ishaaq ibn Raahawaiah (one of the famous teachers of al-Bukhaaree) said: 'Resemblance is if it is said: Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand. Or Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing. So when it is said: Hearing like my hearing, or similar to my hearing, then this is making resemblance. But if what is being said is what Allaah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing, and it is not asked how, nor is it said: like my hearing, or similar to my hearing, then this is not making resemblance. Allaah - the Most Blessed, Most High - said in His Book: There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”
**

So we come to know is when it comes to Allaah(swt) and His(swt’s) attributes, we should go by these principles…

**Affirmation of everything that Allaah affirmed for Himself in His Book, or which His Messenger, sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallaam, affirmed for Him. Without distorting (tahreef), without denial (ta’teel), and without saying how they are (takyeef) and without making any resemblance with the creation (tamtheel)."'Aqeedatus-Salaf Ashaabul-Hadeeth of as-Saaboonee, p. 4, Majmoo’ul-Fataawaa, 3/3, 4/182, 5/26, 6/38 and 515.] **

**Since Allaah knows better about Himself than anyone else, and His Messenger, sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallaam, knows better than rest of creation about his Lord. **
The Second Principle
“To deny for Allaah everything which He has denied for Himself in His Book, or which His Messenger denied for Him, whilst believing its fully perfect opposite is confirmed for Allaah, the Most High.”[Al-'Aqeedatut0Tadmuriyyah, of Ibn Taymiyyah, p. 55, Al-Jawaab Saheeh Liman Baddala Deenal-Maseeh, by him also, 3/139.

**Since Allaah knows better about Himself than His creation, and His Messenger out of all the people is the one who knows best about His Lord, so denying death for Him includes affirmation of His perfect Life, and denying oppression for Him includes affirmation of His perfect Justice, and denying sleep for Him includes affirmation of His perfect charge/control over everything. **
The Third Principle
“The attributes of Allaah, the Might and Magnificent, are only to be spoken of in accordance with a text (tawfeeqiyyah). So nothing is affirmed for Him except that which Allaah affirmed for Himself (or which) was affirmed for Him by His Messenger, and nothing is denied for Allaah, the Mighty and Magnificent, except that which He denied for Himself, was was denied for Him by His Messenger, sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallaam.”[Majmoo’ul-Fataawaa, 5/26.]

**Since there is no one who knows better about Allaah than Allaah, the Most High, (Himself), and there is no one of the creation who knows better about His Creator than Allaah’s Messenger, sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallaam. **

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In order to know the correct belief of Ahlus Sunnah Wa’l Jama’ah, in Allah azza wa jaal, we need not look any further than the Aqeedah of Imam at-Tahawi, who was on of the Tabi’ Tabi’een, also called one of the Salaf as-Salihin. In his Aqeedah at-Tahawiyyah, he explains the correct belief of Ahlus Sunnah wa’l Jama’ah so that one does not adopt heretical beliefs about Allah azza wa jaal. Below is the link for your convenience, prepared by Shaykh Muhammad bin Yahya al-Ninowy.

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/aqeedah/satisfying_the_need.html

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Ya_Sultan_e_Madina – Please could you show contradiction between what faisal as salafi has stated and Aqeedah at-Tahawiyyah posted by you.

I could not see any.

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As Salaamu Alaiykum,

It is stated above that:

  • 'Abdulaah ibn al-Mubaarak (13) (rah) said: ****"We know that our Lord-the Most Perfect - is above the heavens, above his Arsh (throne), seperate from His creation"(Related by ad-Daarimee in ar-Radd alaal-Jahmiyyah(np.23),Abdullaah ibn Ahmad in as-Sunnah(no.22) and al-Bukharee in Khalq Afaalul-Ibaad(no.8).It was declared Saheeh by Ibn Taymiyyah in al-Hamawiyyah(no.41).

This, cannot be taken in the literal sense. For any of us to believe that Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala is above his arsh and separate from his creation, is tantamount to associating something to him, because we are then comparing the creation to Him, by stating that creation is on one plane, and Allah azza wa jaal is in another place in relation to it. That is why it is important to learn and study Islam from an authorized source who has kept a tradition of understanding which has been handed down from one teacher to another. We cannot, say for example, that creation ends at this point, and Allah (jalla jalalu) begins here - this is the speech of someone outside the beliefs of Ahlus Sunnah Wa'l Jama'ah. There is no basis in Islam for us to even utter such a thing.

Whereas in Aqeedah at-Tahawiyyah Imam Tahawi explains:

He has always existed (eternally)1 with His attributes before any creation. Bringing creation into existence did not add anything to His attributes that was not already there.

**Allah Ta’ala said in Surat Faater, ayah 15:

يا ايها الناس انتم الفقراء الى الله والله هو الغني الحميد

The meaning of the ayah is: “O mankind! You are the needy to Allah. And Allah is the One Who is not in need of anything, to Him praise is due.”

Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta’ala, has always existed eternally1 with no beginning. Any beginning implies a starting point in time or place, and since Allah. Ta’ala is The Creator of time and place, and He, Ta’ala, existed eternally when no time or place was created, therefore, He, subhanahu wa Ta’ala, cannot be attributed with a beginning.

The Prophet, Sall Allahu alayhi wa Aalihi wa sallam, said in what Imam Bukhari narrated in his Saheeh:

[RIGHT][RIGHT]كان الله ولم يكن شيء غيره[/RIGHT]
[/RIGHT]
This Saheeh hadeeth means

“Allah existed (eternally) when nothing else existed.”

This hadeeth came as the Prophet, Sall Allahu alayhi wa Aalihi wa sallam, was replying to some people from Yeman when they asked him about the beginning of everything.

**
What this means is that, to state that Allah jalla jalalu is in a place separated from his creation is basically an error of the human mind, by relating time and space upon Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala - when we try to say that he is separate from the creation, because we must keep in mind that time and space are also a part of His (jalla jalalu) creation.

Therefore, relating these to him by saying Allah (jalla jalalu) is in one place and his creation is in another is very dangerous and not necessary to get into and discuss because we lack the capability of understanding this. As the brother Faisal has quoted the hadith above, it should rather be said and commentated upon by a learned muhaddith (master of hadith), the commentary should accompany it so that there is no misunderstanding regarding this topic. That is where I see the difference.

I hope that answers your question brother. Allah emanet olunuz.
**

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so how should we take it??

btw i didnt say that,

Abdullah Ibn Mubarak said that and so did Imaam ahmad.

Did u not read "Ibn Qudaamah (d. 620H) said: "The way of the Salaf is to have eemaan (faith) in the Names and Attributes of Allaah that He has described Himself with in His Revelation, or upon the tongue of His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) - without increasing nor decreasing in it, nor exceeding the limits, nor explaining them (i.e. like the Mu’tazilah), nor making ta’weel of them in a way that opposes the dhaahir (apparent) meaning." (Dhamm ut-Ta’weel of Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisee (p.11) )??

we take it as it apears in the text. without distorting or intrepreting etc and this is the view of the classical scholars.

what does the word Literal Mean??

adjective 1 using or interpreting words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory. 2 (of a translation) representing the exact words of the original text. 3 free from distortion. 4 informal, absolute (used for emphasis). 5 relating to a letter or letters of the alphabet. "
(oxford dictionary)

The Ahlus Sunnah agree that Allaah(swt) IS above the Arsh just as He(swt) said so! were the evidences not suffiecient?? i could give much more.

if you claim Allaah(swt) is NOT above His Arsh then where is He(swt)?? it has been commented on by people of knowledge and what did they say?? **"leave them as they came without asking how" **but they did not deny it did they??

heres a few more...

*Imaam Abdullaah bin Ahmad quotes Abdullaah ibn Mubaarak as saying, “....I bear witness that You are above Your Throne above the seven heavens. And this is not as the enemies of Allaah say, the heretics.” ‘as-Sunnah’ of Imaam Abdullaah ibn Ahmad with tahqeeq of al-Qahtaanee] *

*From ‘Sharh Usul I'tiqaad Ahlus Sunnah’ of al-Laalikaaee (d.414, pp396+ - Tahqeeq Ahmad Hamdaan) *

“660) Abdullaah bin Abbaas (RA) said, ‘Verily Allaah was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the creation and decreed what was to exist until the Day of Judgement

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You just said it yourself - to not take something literally means to take it through allegory, and that is exactly what Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala orders us to do in the Qur'an in relation to any ayat which speaks of Him. He (swt) says that there are two types of ayats in the Qur'an:

Muhkamat, ayats that speak of

-Something of which knowledge was desired.
-Something with only one dimension
-Something sufficient in meaning that requries no further explanation

and

Mutashabihat, ayats that speak of:

-Knowledge known to Allah alone
-Something with more than one dimension
-Something requiring further explaining

This suffices to say, that any ayats in teh qur'an that deal with haram, halal, punishment, inheritance, etc., are to be classified as being Muhkamat,

whereas,

those ayats which speak of Allah's (swt) attributes, resurrection, life, death, and the like, are classified as Mutashabihat.

This clarifies a lot of the confusion.

Therefore any of the Ahadith such as those which you have quoted above, are not to be treated as literal (Muhkamat), but to be treated as allegorical (mutashabihat). In that way, you can be certain to keep yourself away from ever trying to comprehend Allah (swt) in a literal sense as if he is above the heavens and above his arsh and kursi - la hawla wa la quwwuta illah billahil aliyul azim.

I hope that helps you somewhat, I appreciate your reply, jazakum-Allah khairun.

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no akhee i think you are mistaken. Let me ask you a simple question....if Allaah(swt) is not above the throne then where is He?? i take it by its apparent meaning. so If Allaah(swt) said He Is above the Throne then He(swt) is! you either affirm it or deny it.

to me He IS above the throne just as He(Swt) said. what is yr opinion?

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that remind of this....This understanding has also been endorsed by the great Shaafi’ee Imaam, al-Khattaabee (d.388) when he said,
"The madhhab (way) of the scholars of the Salaf and their legal jurists was to leave the likes of these ahaadeeth (concerning the Attributes) upon their literal (dhaahir) meanings, and not to twist their meanings (laa yureeghu lahaa al-Ma’aanee) and neither to make ta’weel of them due to their knowledge that their limited knowledge was incapable of understanding them.
Az-Za’faraanee reported from us from ibn Abee Khaythama from Abd al-Wahhaab bin Najda al-Hutee from Baqya from al-Awzaa’ee who said, ‘Makhool and az-Zuhree used to say: we leave these ahaadeeth as they came.’
I say: this is from the knowledge that we have been ordered to believe in literally without attempting to uncover it’s hidden meanings, and it belongs to a host of the mutashaabiha (verses) that Allaah has mentioned in His Book, so He said,‘He is the One Who has sent to you the Book, in it are clear and unequivocal verses, and others are mutashaabiha (allegorical or open to a number of meanings)’. So from the clear and unequivocal verses arises a true understanding (of their content) and action, and from the mutashaabiha arises faith and knowledge in their literal meanings, and we leave the knowledge of it’s hidden meaning to Allaah, the Most Perfect…"

‘Mu’aalim as-Sunan’ (4/304 - Daar al-Kutub al-Ilmee) of al-Khattaabee under the chapter, "From the chapter concerning the Seeing (of Allaah in the Hereafter)" when he discusses the hadeeth of Descent.]

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Bro look at your post. You just quoted, 'not to twist their meanings' and to leave them as they are. *"we leave the knowledge of it’s hidden meaning to Allaah, the Most Perfect…"
*

So why don't you just leave them with their hidden meaning of Allah Almighty? How do you think that we are able to even begin to understand or compare Allah Subhanahu wa ta 'ala in relation to His creation? I think you've answered your own question.

If the ahadith pertaining to where Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala is are given, there is no reason for us to even attempt to try and say, that He Subhanahu wa ta 'ala is in a place.

'He is above His throne' does not mean that he is in a place above his throne, that is just the point. I am definitely not mistaken about that because that is where our understanding or attempt to comprehend Allah Almighty is not KNOWN to anyone but Him. No person knows how He Jalla Jalalu, we know Him through His names, and that IS ALL.

Imam Tahawi is one of the Salaf as-Salih. I suggest you should leave it at that, I for one don't think that this conversation is going to go anywhere if you don't.

Allahu alam.

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well just to clarfify bro i am not in search of the hidden meanin as this would be kufr. il stick to how the salaf stuck to it and that is take it as it appears without asking "how" and not take take it as meaning "power" or "bounty" etc etc...

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Alhumdulillah.

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Ya_Sultan_e_Madina Brother I hope you are not implying concept of **wahdat al wujud **(Unity of Being).

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Ibn Sadique BROTHER, do not bring in these unrelated concepts to the topic of discussion. That has nothing to do with what you just quoted.

This issue has been settled ALREADY, and I feel that your comments are completely unnecessary and unfounded.

I strongly suggest that you re-read my words which you have just quoted.

You cannot comprehend Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala as being in a place separate from His creation, or somehow being a part of his creation, both of these thoughts will take you outside of Islam.

If you paid better attention to my comments, then you would know that I hold such beliefs because that is what the 'ijma of the Ulema has been since the time of Rasul-Allah (saw).