…but with us only by His Power/Knowledge?
What was the belief of the four Sunni Mujtahid Imams (Rehmat of Allah be upon them) and the beleif of Imam Ja’far Al-Sadiq (rehmatullah alaih) regarding this?
What was the belief of the Ahle-Bait (PBUT) according to Shia sources?
I have no idea why this posted itself four times, please can somebody delete the other three.
The Salaafi brothers say that He is with us by His Knowledge/Power only, do they have any Ahadeeth to back this up or are they doing what they accuse others of i.e. intrpreting the attributes of Allah/Qur'aan according to their own understanding.
why don't they take the aayaat about Allah being with/close to His servants for what it says without trying to intrpret it according to our own thinking?
Do you mean if we believe Allah (swt) is in the heavens physically, but exists in the form of knowledge and power on earth? hmmm, shias do not believe that He (swt) is stationed on a throne in heaven. That would cramp His style and limit His attributes IMO. God is everywhere and closer to you than your jugular vein. (Surah Qaaf 50:16)
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Do you mean if we believe Allah (swt) is in the heavens physically, but exists in the form of knowledge and power on earth? hmmm, shias do not believe that He (swt) is stationed on a throne in heaven. That would cramp His style and limit His attributes IMO.
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Thank you for replying, I never said they believe He is “in” the heavens, according to them it’s impossible for anything to contain Allah, He can’t be surrounded by/contained within His creation, that’s exactly the reason why they reject the idea of Allah being here, there and everywhere by His Self because to them this is suggesting that Allah can be surrounded by the created or that He is intermixed with His creation, they believe Him to be outside the created because that's what the Scripture says but He is with us by His Attributes i.e. Power, Knowledge, Mercy etc.
Sunnis believe that there are seven heavens, the one above us being the lowest, between each heaven is a distance of five hundred years, after the seventh heaven is a distance of five hundred years and then is the Kursiy after that another distance of five hundred years then is the Water, above the Water is the Arsh of Allah, the Arsh is the outermost part of the creation and covers the rest of creation, the Arsh (Throne) is the roof of creation if you like.
It is also believed that Paradise is below the Arsh, with the centre and highest part of Paradise being Al-Firdaus which is directly below the Arsh.
Now the Salafi Sunnis believe that Allah is above the Arsh but His being above the Arsh is not like that of the created being above something, they believe that it is beyond human comprehension to understand how He is above it, but He is above the creation because the Scripture says so.
The Sunni-Hanafi-Deobandi (I don’t know about other Madhabs or Hanafi sub-schools) believe that Allah’s being above the Arsh means His Power and Dominion over the creation and that it does not mean He is present over the Arsh by Himself, a Tablighi from amongst them told me that they believe He is everywhere but I don’t know if that is really their position on the matter because although this brother had a beard and acts like he’s it, he’s a bit of a crack head.
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**“And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.” (Qaf 50:16)
They interpret this verse and others like it to mean His Power, Knowledge etc. I’m curious to know if they have any proof from Ahadeeth or other Qur'anic verses to say it means Power, Knowledge etc. or is it something they came up with to reconcile this Verse with their Belief.**
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God is everywhere and closer to you than your jugular vein.
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But isn't "everywhere" somthing created?
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*Originally posted by Naadir: *
**“And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.” (Qaf 50:16)
They interpret this verse and others like it to mean His Power, Knowledge etc. I’m curious to know if they have any proof from Ahadeeth or other Qur'anic verses to say it means Power, Knowledge etc. or is it something they came up with to reconcile this Verse with their Belief.**
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Read the verse: "And indeed We have created man, and We KNOW..."
So the "nearness" is in terms of "knowing", i.e. knowledge.
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But isn't "everywhere" somthing created?
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That is an interesting point. If God cannot mix with His creation, then where exactly is He? The whole universe, including His arsh and his heavens, are His creation so where does that leave God?
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Thank you for replying, I never said they believe He is “in” the heavens, according to them it’s impossible for anything to contain Allah, He can’t be surrounded by/contained within His creation, that’s exactly the reason why they reject the idea of Allah being here, there and everywhere by His Self because to them this is suggesting that Allah can be surrounded by the created or that He is intermixed with His creation, they believe Him to be outside the created because that's what the Scripture says but He is with us by His Attributes i.e. Power, Knowledge, Mercy etc.
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I would say, that to think that God is above the 7 heavens, whether on or above a throne, is actually containing/restricting Him to a place. That denies God the quality of being omnipotent and omnipresent does it not? I had a similiar conversation with someone, who claimed that to say God was everywhere, was insulting as it implied that God is also in our bathrooms or in our shoes. :-| I dont think that kind of thinking should be applied to God. We cant even fathom what he look likes, let alone restrict Him to outside our bathrooms.
I also heard that according to Salafi/sunni belief (it may be in Sahih Bukhari), people will be able to see God On the Day of Judgement. I suppose if they see it that way, then i can see how they can believe God is confined to a throne above the heavens.
Anyway, For shia source on the whereabouts of God, there is a Famous sermon by Imam Ali in the Nahjul Balagha, i posted it in science and philosophy earlier, I'll post it here.
Sermon 1,
Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.
Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held, He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Read the verse: "And indeed We have created man, and We KNOW..."
So the "nearness" is in terms of "knowing", i.e. knowledge.
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My… so it does suggest His Knowledge, thank you.
It does make sense though coz time, space etc. are part of the creation of Allah and obviously they (time and space) exist within the boundaries of the created realm (with the boundary being the Arsh) and Allah is outside/beyond/above the created realm.
I think it’s useless thinking about this matter because we don’t even understand our solar system, or own galaxy, or our universe or probably an infinite number of ones like it within our heaven, let alone the outer heavens or the Arsh which is totally beyond human comprehension.
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That is an interesting point. If God cannot mix with His creation, then where exactly is He? The whole universe, including His arsh and his heavens, are His creation so where does that leave God?
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I would think outside the created realm, we would think of it to be an empty space obviously because its beyond our imagination coz we have only experienced the created, just like God having no beginning or end is beyond our comprehension.
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I would say, that to think that God is above the 7 heavens, whether on or above a throne, is actually containing/restricting Him to a place. That denies God the quality of being omnipotent and omnipresent does it not? I had a similiar conversation with someone, who claimed that to say God was everywhere, was insulting as it implied that God is also in our bathrooms or in our shoes. I dont think that kind of thinking should be applied to God. We cant even fathom what he look likes, let alone restrict Him to outside our bathrooms.
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Like I already mentioned His Arsh and His being “above” is beyond our comprehension, it's not like that of the created coz God is different.
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I also heard that according to Salafi/sunni belief (it may be in Sahih Bukhari), people will be able to see God On the Day of Judgement. I suppose if they see it that way, then i can see how they can believe God is confined to a throne above the heavens.
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Yeah that’s what the Sunnis believe but seeing Him will not be in the sense of seeing the created, the afterlife is different.
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Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like
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can sum1 elaborate on this one please?
Dear Naadir,
I have also heard with some sheiks that GOD is up high there. Those people had studied in Saudia during Afghan Jehad with Russia.
I was stunt to note that they we totally ------they were saying that is why there are sins in the world because GOD is on URSH. They said if GOD was down there would have not been any sins. They took a glass and they explained GOD's position to me touching the circumference of glass that GOD is here and we are where we fill water in glass. So we are killing and we do other sins. But he is all seeing , he sees us from above.
It took me few days to find the aayat that he is near jagular vein.
KHUDA NEY POUREY AALAM KA AHATA KEY YA HOUWA HAI.GOD IS EVERY WHERE.
To say about him to be at arsh e moullah is a kind of explaining to general people his greatness.
It is nothing to fix him there. Also when we say Prophet went for meraj on ursh, then we should know it was the place GOD has choosen to meet our Prophet. (A highest place).
OUS KEY MERZI JAHAN CHAHA WAHAN MELLA HAMMARE PROPHET SAY> KHUDA JOU WOU DAHRA he is almighty; he does what he wants or likes.
Also I had to explain to them that the GOD can not be MOUQAYAD in any one place.
In fact they were doing word by word tarjuma. EXACTLY the way many say about ALAM NASHRA AAYAT. That GOD opened the chest of prophet mohammed and washed it and filled with hikmat. This kind of thinking is DAEEFUL AETEQADI ON GOD"S KUN FEYA KUN SEFAT. Such aayat are like TASHBEIH- for explaining JOUHALAS of those time DEHATEEYS of arabic villages or---(AARABUL ARAB).
What I believe in that GOD is every where and is all the time. We human beings have not been given ability by GOD to follow him in any way,either his physical or chemical aspect. We can not understand him , if any one claims that GOD is like this or that; it is sin, if we do that we are claiming to be more knowledgeable and better than all prophets (124000).
Bye sokoon