"All knowing"

Society Religion & Philosophy
101

Re: "All knowing"

Sceptic your question and arguments as well as arguments of Kakabali are valid and logical. I know that you want logical and convincing answer regarding fate and free-will, regarding act and its control by Allah, regarding judgment when you believe there is nothing to judge as all are predestined.

Your answer is there in one ‘very deep’ sentence (from very famous hadith). Think and you will get your answer. Once you will get your answer, all would become crystal clear regarding what is in your free-will and what is predestined. Actually, there is more to it than in the sentence I am giving you to think, but I am leaving that for later discussion. Sentence is:

‘Innama al-aamlo-bin-neyat’

So think and let us know what you got out of it related to your question and arguments. Thanks. :)

102

Re: "All knowing"

^ I would accept that and it makes sense given God gives us free will for niyat at least. :)

Only that if you go by this Hadith brings down a lot of ideas that I suspect were added to religion post Sahaba period. But that is not the scope of this thread.

103

Re: "All knowing"

Religion may not be compatible with science, but if you have any doubt regarding logic, go through my replies to kakaballi.

Do you believe that foreknowledge implies determinism?
If yes then give me empirical evidence for this claim.
If you are unable to produce empirical evidences then that means the claim is not verifiable. That creates room for belief in free will and ‘all knowing’ at the same time.
I don’t understand why this simple bit is so hard get.
Just disregard the notion and agree for the sake of argument that religion is not compatible with logic and answer my question.

[QUOTE]

You either believe in miracles, or you believe in science.

You either believe in evolution, for which a lot of evidence exists if I may add, or you believe in religion.

I have a feeling that this discussion might have run its course, for pretty much all discussions involving religion end up in god's mysterious ways and our inability to comprehend his miracles and signs. Let's see how long we have before that card is dealt.

Having said that, and having possibly offended some of you for which I offer my sincere apologies for that was not the intent, I deeply appreciate your input and perspective. And thank you psyah for your patience.
[/QUOTE]

when i said same thing to kakabali, he replied i am forcing him to choose one side and stoping him from questioning.

104

Re: "All knowing"

sa1eem - What I got out of that statement? Not a lot I'm afraid, at least not a lot on the subject. It definitely has some poetic elegance to it, and sounds assuring, but presupposes a lot that can be and has been brought to the discussion table. One problem is, what is reassuring and comforting isn't necessarily the truth.

105

Re: "All knowing"

Foreknowledge implies determinism - that is a logical argument. What is being said here is, if you apply plain logic to the belief in an 'all knowing' god, and the belief that we all have free will, and that we will be judged on the basis - it is incompatible and mutually exclusive. Why exactly are you expecting empirical evidence to disprove something that doesn't have ANY empirical evidence for its existence in the first place?

You must have heard about the celestial teapot argument. Can you ever provide any empirical evidence to prove that there is no teapot orbiting the sun between earth and mars? No you cannot. Burden of proof lies with the one making the scientifically unverifiable claim, rather than pushing it onto the person not willing to accept it. Likewise, you cannot provide any empirical evidence to prove that the unicorns don't exist, or that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

Again, the point being, the burden of proof lies with the one making the scientifically unverifiable claims, not the one questioning them on logical and/or scientific grounds. And this is where, in my humble opinion (well, and in the opinion of many scientists and intellectuals), religion does not have the legs to stand on.

106

Re: "All knowing"

You should prove this argument true by producing atleast one instance where someone knows foreknowledge which could imply determinism.
Now this is what you said "You either believe in miracles, or you believe in science". right?
Now, dont you bother to produce a single instance of foreknowledge? how can you conclude then?

107

Re: "All knowing"

^ Answer a simple question (without aain baain shaain) :P:

Can a human being act contrary to Allah's knowledge?

Yes or no?

108

Re: "All knowing"

Can Allah act contrary to his own knowledge?

Is knowledge of Allah fixed?

Did Allah always know he was going to create this world?

Could Allah decide not to create this world?

Does Allah himself have freewill ie can he choose to do something or not to do it?

109

Re: "All knowing"

‘Innama al-aamlo-bin-neyat’

Leaving deeper meanings aside, let me go through obvious from what I understand.

For every individual, world around us is divided into two. One on which we would get judged on judgment day and other we would not. On what we would not get judged, they are there for our test, as that influences us (individually us and people around us who experience, hear, see or heard) and thus produces reasons of our intentions, thinking, beliefs, that are all going to get judged by Allah on judgement day. We will have to answer how and why we had such thinking, beliefs, and would be shown our intentions behind our actions. We would get rewarded on our justified thinking, justified beliefs and good intentions, but would be punished on our unjustified thinking, unjustified beliefs and bad intentions ... there would be no excuses or hiding behind others whom we may have followed blindly.

[Here, justification do not mean that beliefs,thinking and intentions were right or wrong, but it means, giving valid reasons for such beliefs, thinking and intentions to be right or wrong, based on elements of judgement that Allah gave humans, and they are intelligence, logic, rationality, universal values, factual knowledge, empathy, impartiality, concept of justice, goodwill, and so on ... including pre-birth (imbedded) knowledge that Allah gave to our soul. Humans would not be able to justify their beliefs, values and thinking on judgment day by saying that they followed, as most follow what they are born with or are being told ... like Zombies, but they would have no excuses on judgment day ... (note: Allah has given imbedded knowledge to everything Allah has created, including animals, fish, birds, plants, and humans)].

So we have:
1: Events is happening around us or has happened in past, that we experience, see, hear or heard.
2: Events and result of events happening around us or has happened in past, effects our beliefs, thinking, self-interest and actions.
3: Actions that we perform intentionally or unintentionally (due to our thinking, self-interest and beliefs)

No one has control over actions or events happening around us or has happened in past as their happening is test for us, our beliefs and our thinking.

Most (if not all) events that is related to our actions happen according to our beliefs and thinking (occasionally, some actions can also happen contrary to our self-interest, beliefs and thinking), though some we do intentionally (we become responsible of it) and some unintentionally (we are not going to get judged on it). Our actions are also test for those who experienced, heard or seen it (as all are going through similar test).

Since our intention is only known to Allah, no one can judge us on our actions if it is personal matter (do not affect others). In cases where actions are personal matter, others can only judge us on our words as words portray our thinking and beliefs. If action is not personal matter and affects others then others can judge a person according to action (and that would be worldly judgement not judgment of Allah, as judgement of Allah is based on intention of that person behind the action).

Even though there are lots one can say on the issue, from what I understand, in short:

A: Humans have no control over events happening around and their own actions.
B: Humans would be judged (by Allah) on their thinking, beliefs, and intentions behind their actions.

As for Kakaballi post:

No ...humans cannot act contrary to Allah's knowledge.

You are right … there is a lacuna here about ‘how free intentions could be free from will of Allah’, and your above question is also related to that lacuna ('can human act contrary to Allah's knowledge') ... but that also has obvious and valid answer that I would not like to go into here (as I know then things would become more complicated).

As far as present topic is concerned, we are talking about obvious, and that is events and actions … if they are dependent on humans or are predestined … and if they are predestined, on what we would be judged on judgement day.

110

Re: "All knowing"

you just need to take discrete math course and come back to discussion then. vent your frustration somewhere else, got it?
for you, foreknowledge implies determinism.
similarly, x implies y. By this logic, i can imply whatever i want. and i can imply some funny things on you.
there is no cure for such shamelessness when some talks about logic but dont bother to tell others the value of x.

111

Re: "All knowing"

As expected, no answer.

Please, no need to get personal here.

112

Re: "All knowing"

as if you have answered my question? you are forgetting that you made a claim here.

[QUOTE]
Please, no need to get personal here.
[/QUOTE]

you started it.

113

Re: "All knowing"

Where?

I told you. There is no empirical evidence of someone having foreknowledge of things. Now, if that makes my claim false, according to you, so be it.

Now, since there is no empirical evidence of existence of God, applying the same principle, GOD does not exist and the question of HIS attributes is worthless and this whole discussion is therefore mute. Have a good day/night.

114

Re: "All knowing"

Where did I say your claim is true or false?
I said that is unverifiable so its upto you what you choose to believe.

Nobel Quran mentions that you (believers) believe in Unseen. The commandment is very clear, and there is no crookedness regarding making you a believer. Since the commandment is clear and there is no point of making us the believers rhetorically. But at the same time Nobel Quran says some very thought provoking things as follows.
[52:35 ] Were they created out of nothing? Or were
they themselves the creators?
[52:36 ] Or did they create the heavens and the earth?
Nay, but they are sure of nothing!

as believer i may not know answer to all the questions but brother, i am not implying anything on you. just look at the following verse from Nobel Quran.
[3:7 ] It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its
[true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of
understanding.

115

Re: "All knowing"

so in a nutshell we are just puppets......

116

Re: "All knowing"

sa1eem - I see where you are coming from, there are things that just happen in our lives (no control) and then there is our free actions and our reaction to the uncontrolled events - again supposedly free. And then you are judged on the basis of your free actions and reactions, primarily the intent. What you need to understand here is, you are merely stating the concept of freewill and judgement, and this is exactly where the discussion started. The real problem is logic, which very often doesn't fit into the concepts of faith/religion. Faith might be blind, we are not. The concept of god of gaps is well known, look it up and think about it.

ajazali - I'm sorry brother but your ideas are way too naiive to warrant a serious reply. Just a word of advice, don't quote scriptures when debating the existence of god. That is a bit like quoting from Harry Potter to prove the existence of Hogwarts.

117

Re: "All knowing"

Well, either that or a more rational explanation that we are a product of billions of years of evolution by natural selection and are lucky to be alive in a time where we have the knowledge and resources to finally begin to understand the previously unexplainable phenomenon that we have always been associating with gods, angels, demons and other supernatural elements. But that does not make sense right? I mean what is there to support these ludicrous claims other than the painstaking research of scientists and well worked out evidence.

118

Re: "All knowing"

  1. I didnt quote scripture to prove existence of God.
  2. Apparently, you didnt open the thread asking a proof of existence of God.
  3. Then this thread does not belong to religion forum.
  4. I know the real intention of opening this thread in Religion forum.