From the Thread The 4th Calif - Ali Karam Allah Wajho - Sunni Only](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=185924)
Anwaar Qureshi Posted:
in responce armughal posted:
also OMG disagreed with brother Anwaar. Why there are such different opinions among sunnis about Ali (as). Which of them are true? Is it because of the dieferences in the 4 schools of thought or is it something else.
Please comment with references.
thanx
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
simple... you will always get varied opinions between people who have differing levels of knowledge
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
**It is something else ** - just that a lot of false hadith circling around are taken to be genuine. Nothing against the great Sahabi and member of Ahlul Bayt (Allah be pleased with him)
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
I Don’t think there is any confussion…
Ali(ra) being the gate of knowledge(wisdom) is quite famous hadees and it is included in Sahi books, dono why someone finds it weak :konfused: Maybe he has done some indepth research into this matter and came to conclusion
But again, Sahi books have some weak hadees too, Like I find age of certain noble personalities(mentioned in sunni literature) very confusing and very doubtful ( but that has nothing to do with their noble status)
A detailed discussion in past ..http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=165409
Being a sunni, I have my doubts in sunni tradition, based on my understanding ( I may be wrong ) Similarly, there may be some research done by Armughal and he may have doubts in some traditions based on his understanding ( he may be wrong) …
It is common understanding one may have doubt in tradtions according to the science of hadees… But it has nothing to do with the status of noble personalitites
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
here’s something on this hadith from the book, An Introduction to the Science of Hadith (Al-Quran Society, 1994), which i have and which you can also find online:
“I am the City of Knowledge, and 'Ali is its Gate.”
“Related by al-Hakim, al-Tabarani and others. It is also related by al-Tirmidhi with the wording, “I am the House of Wisdom, and 'Ali is its Door”. Al-Daraqutni labelled the hadith as mudtarib, both in isnad and text; al-Tirmidhi said it is gharib and munkar; al-Bukhari said that it has no sahih narration; Ibn Ma’in said that it is a baseless lie. Similar dismissals of the hadith are reported from Abu Zur’ah, Abu Hatim and Yahya b. Sa’d. Al-Hakim declared the original hadith as sahih in isnad, but Ibn al- Jauzi regarded both versions as maudu’, and al- Dhahabi agreed with him. Several of the later scholars, including Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Ibn Hajar al-Makki and al-Suyuti declared it hasan due to its various routes of narration. Al- 'Ijlouni says, “… none of this devalues the consensus of the Adherents to the Sunnah from the Companions, the Successors and those after them, that the best of the Companions overall is Abu Bakr, followed by 'Umar …”, and quotes this view from Ibn 'Umar and ‘Ali himself, as recorded in Sahih al-Bukhari. Al-Albani declares the hadith to be maudu’.”
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
Hmmm from my experiences with ArMughal.. he have doubts on many hadith’s if they have Hazrat Ali A.S. mentioned in it… I wish if he could ever share this research of his.. so one can be enlightened by his views also… he just claims.. nauzubillah shia raised Hazrat Ali A.S. than his over rank.. but when asked he never told what his actual rank is… I wonder if he is confued between Nusairre and us… Nusairre nauzubillah take him as Allah not shias… I wish he could open up a bit or could atleats have the nerve to defend his words… so we can have in the sake of argument… so far I heard one argument on him.. where he tried to degrade Nabuwat to assume the hadith might be dhaeef saying that he couldn’t understand that how Hazrat Ali A.S. could stand on shoulder’s of Prophet P.B.U.H. to break idols… when there are ayats in Quran which show how Moses threw it stick and it became a snake … or believes like Jesus was borned without a father… but when it comes to sardar -e- Ambiya it just couldn’t make sense to him how prophet could do a miracle by lifting Hazrat Ali A.S… I wish he had to nerve to answer his own claims…
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
a joke that i once read, for texan dude....
a thief breaks into a jeellery shop, and runs away with the stolen items....
he is, however named as the prime suspect for the act....
he goes to a lawyer to ask him to defend him....
the lawyers says "i cant fight this case, 10 people have seen u breaking into the shop"...
the thief says, "only 10? i will bring u 100 who havent seen me breaking into the shop"....
regardless of how u find the joke, the point is that non-existance does not need a proof, existence does....
i told u my story, and told u who was on the shoulders, u tell me why u think it was Hazrat Ali bin Abi Talib (ra), if u have a good proof....
for a good start i have more faith in authenticity of bibilical tales than of shia books, so avoid bringing in those writings as proof....
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
[quote]
for a good start i have more faith in authenticity of bibilical tales than of shia books, so avoid bringing in those writings as proof
[/quote]
well thats understandable, because you know the feeling's mutual from this end. :) thats the way its always been.
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
lol the excuses you came up witih makes me laugh… dude I am sure beside you no one else has the claim… so how about you give us some of your research.. and tell me why was it not Hazrat Ali A.S… or what is the actual rank of Hazrat Ali A.S… that you nauzubillah claim shia to over do it… even though I made it quite clear we are not Nussaire… oh I forgot arrmughal don’t have answer to his claims… he just needs excuses so here you go a website… I am sure you’ll find lotta jokes to wig out of thiis one..
www.jokes.com
wish someone had nerves to defend his statements rather than just throwing accusations and present jokes when ask to defend one… lolololol.. you are one heck of a dude…
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
Hmm I can tell why is that… truth is too sour to digest isn’t it buddy… is that why you need to come up with lame excuses… or to degrade Prophethood… or is that why you couldnt expand the horizons of your brain… that you couldn’t make sense how could Hazrat Ali A.S stand on the shoulders of Prophet P.B.U.H. even though Prophets before have done miracles… Jesus was born without after Moses threw his stiick and it became snake… and your brain had doubts how Prophet could lift Hazrat Ali A.S… just shows your ignorance buddy..
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
^
is that all u have got to say????
dont u ever get tired of ur redundant replies....
i am not doubting what Prophet (saw) cud do i am doubting the story....
it is like i tell u that the Prophet (saw) blasted open the khyber fort's gate single handedly, and u will burst out saying that it was Ali (ra) and not Muhammad (saw) who did that....
u wont be doubting the strength of the Prophet (saw), just not willing to accept things that r not factual....
think harder and maybe u will understand what i am trying to say....
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
About the hadith that Ali(R.A) is gate of knowledge i thinks that undisputed hadith among sunni scholars as well and I have heard them saying that Hadith too.
Ali(R.A) on prophet shoulders breaking idols is really a weak hadith and needs some research.
About fath e khyber I think Allah wrote khyber's victory in Ali's destiny and without Ali it indeed wouldn't be possible But I am not saying Ali won the victory singlehandly but he no doubt played major part and Allah destined him to play that part in victory over jews.
Whatever you two guys say, Ali remains one of the most revered personalities in Islam not only among shias or for that matter among sunnis.I appeal all muslims to respect all suhabas equally because only Allah and his prophet knows their actual hierarchy.
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
lololol its amazing to see how fast you change colors or should I say try to contradict yourself… when you can’t defend your own words… let me quote what you had said earlier…
Read your own words which I have highlighted in red… correct me if I am wrong.. are you saying its not sensible how would Hazrat Ali A.S be on the shoulders of Prophet P.B.U.H. and backing up your argument by his age… lol dude and now you changed caps… interesting…
and where did you jump to the conclusion as to I won’t be willing to accept it… dude I am the one who have been quoted how Prophet Moses threw his assa and it became snake or how Prophet Jesus was born without a mother… I never doubted Prophet P.B.U.H. do miracles.. why are you throwing the ball at my court.. or should I ask where did you jump to this lame conclusion of yours, I never degraded Prophet P.B.U.H…
Yeah yeah read my statements above … like you sure have some point…
And as usual you ignored another question where I asked you to defend your own words… incase you missed it let me requote it for you.. hoping you finally gathered nerve to stand for your words than coming up lame excuses or outta context jokes.
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
actually some people don't add this that prophet said , iam the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate . dear reader if your a good wise man then you will understand this hadith completely. this gate doesn't mean a simple gate, this is a special gate for everything it means anybody wants to go to muhmmad sawws then he must enter the gate otherwise its impossible to enter the city of knowledge
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
iam the city of knowledge and
Ali is its gate
Re: Ali (as) - Confusions among sunnis
The title is quite misleading ...
There is no confussion among sunnies about the status of Hazrat Ali karam Allah wajhu.
There are traditions which can be questioned for authenticity. But it seems no one is interested.