vroom has provided a very strong argument that Najd is not Iraq.
To summarise my claim:
a) Central Saudi is Najd - All geographic and historical references prove this.
b) Najd is not Iraq
c) The horn of the devil will rise independently from both Najd and Iraq ... it may be the result of the same fitnah or a different fitnah.
What is clear is neither Iraq nor Central Saudi were included in the blessed du'a for Sham and Yemen. It is hence totally unreasonable to actively exclude Central Saudi from Najd because the most this will achieve is a neutral view of that region not a blessed one.
It is situations like this I fear people are unable to be scholarly and objectively and critically analyse texts without bias.
There is too much taqleed amongst the people who denounce taqleed. This is a great irony.
I have done enough research on this topic (Najd and Najdi hadith) to conclude with as much certainty as humanly possible that ‘Najd’ mentioned in hadith is Riyadh (and surrounding area). According to hadith, it is this place from where fitna would appear during last days before Qiyamah. It is this place from where people would come out who (and their followers) would recite Quran but Quran would not enter their heart and they would be Kharjees of last days. These people and people who would follow them would have low brain capacity, would argue but would not be able to learn or understand as they would be ignorant and full of pre-conceived ideas (beliefs … especially belief of self-righteousness) from where they would never budge (they would have self-belief and would think what they believe cannot be wrong, regardless of how convincingly they are told that what they believe is wrong). Thus, it is said that to argue with them would be futile, as according to hadith, their place in hell is reserved. According to another hadith, they are called ‘dogs of hell’.
I believe (I might be wrong, but that is my conclusion), Prophet (SAW) called this fitna horn of Shaitan, because the fitna would rise attacking Muslims with two horns, one horn would be power (sword and money in the hand of Saud and their family) and other horn would be religion (in the hand of Abdul-Wahab and his followers).
Thus, for those who really want to know about Najd and its whereabouts, and are not going to read with pre-conceived beliefs (Ideas), here is conclusive proof of Najd whereabouts … and also proof to confirm why Najd cannot be Iraq or any other place, rather it is present day Najd … actually, Riyadh and its surrounding area in central Saudi Arabia (Najdi Plateau):
**So … please read carefully … please let me know if there is anything wrong in what I wrote as that would be appreciated.
**
Najd and Najdi hadith: In Arabic, word Najd literally means high-land (or up-land). Arabs used to call land above them (higher then where they are, as Najd). Highest part of Arabian Peninsula (Jazeerah-tul-Arabia) was central plateau that was known as Najd (and it is still known as Najd) since ancient time.
Hijaz (Mecca, Madina and area surrounding Mecca and Madina) itself is mountainous region, and thus very few areas can be Najd for people of Hijaz.
Thus, when People talked about Najd, they meant Arabian plateau that they used to call Najd and it is called Najd even today.
From hadith: Prophet (SAW) prayed for Sham and Yemen … then people asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for ‘our Najd’. Prophet (SAW) declined and pointing finger towards east (east of Madina) said that Fitna, turmoil and Horns of Satan would appear from here.
So: From above we have 3 clear points that determines everything about Najd, the place of Fitna and horns of Shaitan appearing from there.
1: It was mentioned by people as ‘our Najd’ and people asked Prophet to pray for its blessing.
2: The area even at that time was known as Najd.
3: The Najd mentioned was in the east of Madina.
Let see each points:
1 and 2: People called the area ‘our Najd’ means the area was under Muslim occupation and people living there were mostly Muslims. Obviously, they could not have asked to pray for area that was not under Muslim occupation nor people living there were Muslim, still referring to that area as ‘our Najd’ … For instance, could not have asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for Egypt, Iran, USA, UK, France or India referring them as our ‘X’.
Question arises that if they could not have called area not under Muslim rule (and Muslim living there) as our ‘Najd’ than what about Shaam?
Well, historically Shaam at the time of Prophet (SAW) was ‘greater Sham’ that includes most of present day Iraq. A part of Shaam (south of Jordan or north of Hijaz) was under Muslim rule, so when Prophet (SAW) prayed for Shaam, obviously the area could not have been Shaam under Roman’s rule, but Shaam that was under Muslim rule and people living there were Muslims (this area of Shaam was area north of Hijaz).
Hence to find ‘Najd’ mentioned in Hadith, **we have to look for area that was under Muslim rule during the life time of Prophet (SAW) when this hadith was said, plus people living there were mostly Muslims **… and further, that area was known as Najd by people of ‘Hijaz’ during the time of Prophet (SAW).
Here is map of areas under Muslim rule at the time of Prophet (SAW). I have two pictures. One is what was under Muslim rule at the time of Prophet (SAW), some area was under Muslim rule loosely that is not included in second map, though it came strongly under Muslim rule during the time of Abu Bakr (RA). Most interesting thing is that none of the area outside Arabian Peninsula was under Muslim rule at any time during the life of Prophet (SAW).
Above map shows maximum extend of Muslim rule during Prophet (SAW) time … though some areas were loosely in control, but came strongly under Muslim rule during the time of Abu Bakr (RA) as shown below.
Extent of Islamic rule with dates. One should know that Prophet (SAW) left this world in 632 AD … so any expedition dated after 632 happened after passing away of Prophet (SAW).
Above maps show road map: Spread of Islamic land during Prophet (SAW) time til the time of Usman (RA).
2: Present day Najd is an area that was known as Najd not only at the time of Prophet (SAW) but from time even before that, as being the plateau situated at highest latitude in Arabian Peninsula. Obviously, after this hadith, no area would have named itself Najd or if it was Najd than it would have changed its name from Najd, but it is Allah’s will that we still have the area called Najd what Prophet (SAW) referred.
3:As hadith was said in Madina pointing towards East, we should look towards area East of Madina that was under Muslim rule and was also known as Najd. If we check latitude lines, we find that both Madina and Riyadh are ~24.5 degree north of equator … in other words, Riyadh is exactly east of Madina. Actually, the line of latitude that passes through Madina passes through ‘Duryia’ too, that is situated in southern Riyadh and was the capital of Wahabism.
Well, most interesting part is that, if we go round the globe, looking at area exactly east of Madina (all areas at line of same latitude, from where 24.5 degree north passes) … we would be surprised that no major cities comes except two, that is Riyadh and Abu Dhabi.
Madina 24.47° N
Abu Dhabi: 24.47° N
Riyadh: 24.35° N (southern extreme)… to … 24.68° N (northern extreme)
[Rise of Wahhabism started from Diriyah that was under the control of Saud, but when Wahabis captured Mecca and Madina and unsettled Turks, Turks send an army from Egypt under the command of Ibrahim Pasha who fought a war with them and destroyed them, also destroyed Diriyah. Present day Riyadh is adjacent to Diriyiah].
As for Iraq being Najd (is preposterous thinking) :
1: Even though Southern Iraq is not East of Madina, rather it is at best North East of Madina … Southern Iraq could not be called Najd as it is at sea-level.
2: No part of (present day) Iraq was under Muslim rule at the time of Prophet (SAW) that Muslim could have called that area as ‘our Najd’.
3: Most of southern Iraq that Najdis want to portray as Najd mentioned in Hadith, even though these areas are not up-land … rather most are at sea-level, these areas came under Muslim rule during Umar (RA) time and were mostly un-inhabited. For instance, Basra got inhabited and used as army garrison during the time of Umar (RA). Most people who live in this area (Basra and surrounding areas) came to this area from Arabian Peninsula as part of Muslim army … and are mostly from Hijaz, Yemen or Najd. Even origin of Kharjees who fought Ali (RA) were mostly from Arabian Peninsula.
4: Iraq was part of greater Syria (that includes some part of North-Western Saudi Arabia). In history, this area was mostly known as Mesopotamia (or Babylon) and not Iraq.
Actually, when hadith talk about ‘our Shaam’, then it is not Syria what we know today, but was area that was part of greater Syria situated at north-western part of present Saudi Arabia that came under Muslim rule during time of Prophet (SAW). Else praying for area where non-Muslim were living and was under non-Muslim rule, is ridiculous thing to believe. Further, if Prophet (SAW) had done that (knowing the future) then people would have questioned Prophet (SAW) as to why he is praying for non-Muslim people and land, and not for Najd that at the time was Muslim land and people living there were Muslims.
So … think, think, think … do own research … correct me if you find what I wrote above is wrong (with reference), and then come to your own conclusion.
Actually, whole of Najd was under Muslim rule during Prophet (SAW) time. Extent of control (or Muslim rule) included Najd, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain (now known as eastern province of Saudi Arabia) and part of Shaam (north-western Arabia or area north of Hijaz). Since control was weak, many tribes revolted after passing of Prophet (SAW) and Abu Bakr (RA) 2 year rule passed mostly fighting these revolts and bringing the areas and tribes within Islamic control again.
Areas strongly under Muslim rule during Prophet (SAW) time was mostly Hijaz and western Yemen … though as I mentioned earlier (as far as I know), most of Arabia was also in control and had accepted rule of Prophet (SAW) on them.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Muhammad ibn Wahab was also born in the village near or in the region of Najd? He is also referred as Muhammad ibn Wahab Najdi in some literature.
^^ Najd is a plateau located central of Arabia with an area over 200000 sq miles (more than half of Pakistan). Presently, Riyadh is the biggest city of Najd. Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab was born in Uyayna in Najd. Uyayna is adjacent to Riyadh. Saud was from Diriyah (was ruler of Diriyah), that is also adjacent to Riyadh.
Both areas are located on western side of Riyadh. Diriyah is probably part of Riyadh and Uyayna ~10 km north-west of Diriyah (and Riyadh).
Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab was from tribe of Tamim. His father and brother, both were good Muslim and were not happy with what Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab was preaching.
There is hadith that a person 'Abdullah bin Khuwaisrah' (also known as Dhil Khuwaisrah) from the tribe of Tamim, showed disrespect and abused Prophet (SAW) of being unjust. Some companions seeing the insult, wanted to kill the person, but when asked permission, Prophet (SAW) denied the request. When Khuwaisrah left, Prophet (SAW) predicted that there would be many like him from his descendant. He is considered as first leader of Kharjees.
It does not mean, all Tamimis are bad or away from Islam, but it only means that there would be many Tamimis who would lead people towards hell. They would have no respect for Prophet (SAW) and anything connected to Prophet (SAW).
JazakAllahukhair about providing your conclusions. I agree with most parts … The part that I disagree with is the inclusion of Iraq in to Shaam. Shaam may include Palestine, but not Iraq. I also feel the explanation of “horn of devil” as being the two families as being wrong too. I do however feel the fitnah that is spoken about is a result of members of the two families yes.
The thing is there are several ahadith that specifically mention the word “Al-Iraq” and that it will be a place where the horn of the devil appears. What the followers of the Wahabi movement insist is that this reference of “horn of devil” connects Iraq to the hadith of Shaam and Yemen … However, in that hadith the word Iraq was not used rather the word Al-Najd was used.
So my conclusion is that there is a horn of the devil in Iraq and another different horn of the devil as well in Najd … So what do Iraq and and Saudi share in common? Ans: Oil and Gas …
Please look at this map of existing known Oil and Gas wells …
So it could be that the fitnah of Oil and Gas is being refered to here as “horns of devil”
Iraq and ‘horn of Shaitan’: As far as I know, **there is no hadith that links Iraq with horns of Shaitan **and that is obvious too, as Iraq (what we know) was part of Persian empire when Prophet (SAW) was alive, and thus had nothing to do with Islam or Islamic territory during the time of Prophet (SAW) … for any Muslim to even talk about that territory … leave calling that territory ‘our Iraq’.
I think you got hoodwinked by some Wahabis (or their supporters) claiming that horn of Shaitan has connection with Iraq. They tried that on me too, quoting one particular hadith. But hadith is clear and easy to prove that ‘horn of Shaitan’ mentioned in that hadith would be from Najd, not Iraq. Since I do not like to take claims blindly, I looked into hadith and showed them the truth. I do not know if those Wahabis (and their supporters) were making mistake of understanding or intentionally lied when they linked horn of Shaitan with Iraq. Anyhow, after seeing clear proof that hadith do not link Iraq with horn of Shaitan but Najd, they stopped.
I could have quoted the hadith wahabis (and their supporters) use to link Iraq with Horn of Shaitan and hoodwink (or misguide) people, but since I do not know which hadith you are talking about as you said many hadiths (not one), I would first like to see hadith you believe has link with horn of Shaitan and Iraq … who knows, maybe there are, but if there are then it would be surprising for me too. Since most hadith book with hadiths can be quoted from net, so if you have come across any hadith that links Iraq with horn of Shaitan, please quote. Thanks.
**Iraq and Greater Syria: **To say that Iraq was not part of greater Syria is ridiculous, as empire (Assyrian empire) that gave name ‘Syria’ originate itself from present day Iraq (Iraq, north of Babylon).
There was a region called Assyria, north of Babylon. The area is located in present day Iraq. They expanded to capture huge land around them and an empire was established, known as Assyrian empire. Syria is name given to territories once ruled by Assyrian empire … today, known as greater Syria. One can find the map of greater Syria easily on net.
Actually, Syrian Socialist National Party (SSNP) make claims over all those areas known as greater Syria (so, finding the map should not be problem). ‘SSNP’ wants to establish a Syrian state based on territory that was once part of greater Syria (Assyrian empire), calling that territory as natural boundary of Syria, and thus includes present day Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Palestine, Cyrpus, Sinai, south-eastern Turkey, south-western Iran and northern Saudi Arabia … so to find map of greater Syria, and also map SSNP uses should not be problem (and best part is that, both maps include Iraq as part of Greater Syria.
Here are the maps:
Above map shows location of Assyria (in Present day Iraq), that gave the name Syria to territory captured by them and became part of their empire.
Above map shows extent of Assyrian Empire (could be classified as map of greater Syria).
Above map is of greater Syria: Above map shows extend of greater Syria … claimed by SSNP (Syrian Socialist National Party) as ‘natural borders’ of Syria … that has 3 colours. Black (Syria and Lebanon), Red (Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait and Palestine) and white (Cyprus, part that is in Turkey, in Iran, in Saudi Arabia and in Egypt).
Due to political reason, some maps exclude in ‘map of greater Syria’, part that is in Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia … though all include Iraq and kuwait as part of greater Syria. Hence map of greater Syria, as given below:
So dear brother, to say that Iraq is not part of greater Syria, is complete dishonesty.
Narrated ibn Umar: I heard the Messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu alyahi wa sallam, saying while facing the east: “Indeed Afflictions are there, from where appears the Horn of Satan.” (Shahih Muslim No.5167)
Muhammad PBUH did the Dawn Prayer and gave salute and facing toward the SUN RISE and said: “Fitnah will come from here. Fitnah will come from here from the horn of Satan” [Musnad Ahmad 2/72 no 5410 shahih]
Reading above hadith, it make me laugh when Wahabis and their supporters say that place mentioned above in Hadith by Prophet (SAW), place from where horn of Shaitan would rise, place from where afflictions, earthquakes and fitna would come is not Najd in Saudi Arabia, but Iraq.
For instance … look at hadith and think. People asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for ‘our Najd’. How can any place that was not under Muslim rule and where people living were not Muslim, could be addressed as ‘OUR’ Najd by people?…
Well, it is just like saying that Najd mentioned in hadith is Pakistan and people asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for ‘Our Najd’ was actually asking to pray for ‘Our Pakistan’ … and trying to give weight to this argument by saying that Pakistan is mostly situated at height and has more than 100 peaks above 7000 meters … hence Najd.
But if anyone would say that, than people would laugh, saying that at the time Pakistan was an unknown territory that was not even Muslim area neither people living there were Muslim, so people could not have called Pakistan as ‘our Najd’. So, if Our Najd cannot be Pakistan than how can it be Iraq or any other place … other than Najd (in S Arabia) that was at the time Muslim territory and where people living used to claim that they are Muslim?
Well, same place (from where horn of Shaitan would appear) in other hadith is mentioned as place in East … and again, it clears the location, because both Madina (where hadith is said) and Riyadh (S Arabia) lies at ~ 24 degree latitude line (Riyadh is exactly east of Madina). Actually, no place with any substantial population lies east of Madina except Riyadh and Abu Dhabi.
It is surprising that some people like to claim that a place that is north of Madina (or at best north-east) is mentioned by Prophet (SAW) pointing towards East, as if Prophet (SAW) did not knew where is north and where is east. On the other hand, sunrise in Madina would be from towards Riyadh (Najd) and not Iraq.
We should remember that position of Iraq during Prophet (SAW) time was same as position of Pakistan. Both came under Muslim rule much after the passing of Prophet (SAW), and during the time of Prophet (SAW) both were non-Muslim territory with majority non-Muslim living there. None of the two places could be called ‘our Najd’ by people of the time who were Muslim and were companions of Prophet (SAW) … as none were ‘Our’ to them.
Actually, if we do not look for Najd in area that was under Muslim rule at the time, than Pakistan would be best suitable (even Tibet, Nepal or many places in the world) … but still southern Iraq could not, as southern Iraq is not up-land to be called Najd. Iraq is lo-land and not up-land (Najd), but most of Pakistan is up-land (Najd). Iraq is north or at best north-east of Madina but Pakistan (at least south of Pakistan) is towards east of Madina.
But then, people who make such ridiculously stupid and absurd claims is also predicted in hadith, that confirms that these people are Kharjees of last days, as Kharjees of last days would be talking rubbish and would be making absurd and preposterous stupid claims that is unthinkable. According to hadith, these kharjees would have ‘brain deficiency’ and would be unable to think properly, and probably that would be the reason they would be misguided. Here is hadith from Bukhari to confirms that.
Ali (RA) Narrated: "I heard the Holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) as saying that as the Day of Qiyamah approaches there will appear a group of youths with a low mental capacity and understanding, apparently they will talk of good but their Imaan will not go beyond their throat and they will leave the true Deen like an arrow leaves the prey. Wherever you find them, you should make Jihaad with them. (Bukhari)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Muhammad ibn Wahab was also born in the village near or in the region of Najd? He is also referred as Muhammad ibn Wahab Najdi in some literature.
Yes, his followers especially those who him on a direct basis [not the communities of laymen that have followed in following him] refer to him in their literature as Shaikh An-Najd
Its also worth knowing, you know as Muslims we hold particular love and reverence for Ahl al Bayt of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam
Well Saudi Najdis have "Aal Ash Shaikh" concept. They are the scholars with lineage back to Shaikh an Najd himself
This is no joke, and im not making takfir by saying muslims and najdis but there is no better language because najdis would be against reverence for Ahl al Bayt, inline with their sentiments i do not think they revere the Aal ash Shaikh but these are the leading scholars and policy makers. It is a type of Imamate
No of course I agree that Iraq was part of the Assyrian empire up to when the whole region was split into the tetrarchy of Alexander’s legacy, but this was many years before Islam … I do not agree that Assyria is what was meant by the word Shaam … The correct translation of Shaam is The Levant … Not really Syria. Also, at the time of RasoolAllah (SAW) the area known as Iraq was known.
If you read the response given by the supporters of Wahabi movement they have given a few ahadith that specifically use the word Iraq …So the natural conclusion is to treat Iraq and Najd as two separate places of fitnah.
Whatever is written on the page you posted in post #5](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=5) … they are either misinterpreted, concocted lies or simply blatant lies. If Liars and mentally retards had any respect, I would have gone into each quoted hadith one by one, but then whatever is written on the page are so absurd that it is futile even to talk about them. Those who claim that mentioned hadiths talks about Iraq as place of Fitna, place from where horns of Shaitan would appear, place of turmoil and trouble, then it only shows their mental ability and confirms that these people could not think (or have any common sense) as they are free from any intelligence (aqal). I would like to quote a Quranic ayah that explicitly talks about them, and then go into first few hadith to show how they lied and misinterpreted the hadith:
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason.
PICKTHALL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah’s sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.
YUSUF ALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.
I hope you know the meaning of La-ya-qiloon … well, it means, one who have no intelligence, lack common sense (Aqal), and thus cannot grasp simple logic. Ayah tells is about them that even when these people hear or talk, in reality they are deaf and dumb, as they accept or reject without thinking or understanding (without using sense) what one mentions to them, as they are senseless animals and worse kind of being Allah has created, whom obviously Allah hates (because they do not use common sense, best gift Allah has given to every human being).
From above ayah, it is crystal clear that nothing could come from Prophet (SAW) or Allah that is against common sense or illogical, and thus any hadith that is against common sense or are illogical, one should never associate them with Prophet (SAW) regardless of source, as they are fabricated, concocted or is there to mislead people. Only worse of Allah’s creation (people of hell-fire) would accept such hadiths as words of Prophet (SAW) or Allah, because Allah clearly says in Quran that people who do not have common sense are worst of creatures, and obviously Prophet (SAW) was the best of creature, so he could not have said anything that is against common sense and logic.
Now, I would like to comment on some so-called hadith Wahabi site has quoted. I believe, first few would be enough … as wasting time on illogical quote these lowly animals make (as according to Quran), is futile anyhow.
Title of the page: ‘East refers to Iraq and not Saudi Arabia’ …statement is not only absurd, but the possibility of it coming from Prophet (SAW) is non-existent. Anyhow, whoever thinks that Prophet (SAW) may have said that, they are abusing Prophet (SAW) intelligence and associating lies to Prophet (SAW).
Anyhow, since there are many people who do not use common sense (are worse of animals in sight of Allah), I would go into first few mentioned hadiths on that page.
Hadith 1: Abdullah Ibn-Umar related that once, he saw the Prophet showing `Iraq with his hand, and saying: “The fitna is here, the fitna is here, the fitna is here, three times, it is from here that will appear the devil’s horns,”(sahih)
Now tell me, how can anyone refer to Iraq with hand, when at the time there was no such thing as shape or boundary of Iraq? … Further, how Abdullah bin Umar would know what Prophet (SAW) is showing with his hand (even if that was possible), when he was kid, was 18 year old when Prophet (SAW) left this world), and when no Arab use to even go towards present day Iraq (as there was no mentionable place in Iraq at that time?
All 4 major cities of Iraq (southern Iraq) … Baghdad, Basrah, Najaf and Karbela was not even existing when Prophet (SAW) was present. All got established by later Muslims.
From various hadith, prophet (SAW) pointed towards east (in some hadith, pointed towards rising sun) and mentioned that fitna is here, fitna is here, fitna is here, three times, it is from here horns of Shatan would appear.
But then, I believe, Wahabi deviant liars have used the word Iraq in place of east prophet (SAW) pointed … as title also suggests. But then, if Iraq is really mentioned in hadith than also it would be clear that hadith is fabricated after Muslims established cities in Iraq and got settled there..
Hadith 2: .Ibn Umar reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “O Allah, bless us in our Syria. O Allah, bless us in our Yemen.” He repeated it and on the third or fourth time, they said, “O Messenger of Allah, and in our Iraq.” The Prophet said, “Verily, from there will appear upheavals and tribulations and from there will rise the horn of Satan."
The world Iraq used in this hadith is again concocted lie from liars. In this hadith, Liars have replaced the word Najd with Iraq. But since they have no common sense (are worst of creatures in this world and people of hell), they did not realised that no one (no Sahabi) would say ‘our Iraq’ to Prophet (SAW), as at the time none of the land that is now known as Iraq was under Muslim rule or where Muslims were living … plus, there was no mentionable place in Iraq that one could have referred.
Hadith 3: Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he heard Salim b. 'Abdullah b. 'Umar as saying: O people of Iraq, how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit major sins? I heard from my father 'Abdullah b. 'Umar, narrating that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east: Verily, the turmoil would come from this side, from where appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of one another.
This is the hadith one Wahabi quoted to me. But here also, it is obvious that Wahabis misinterpreted the hadith without using common sense (as they are worse of animals Allah has created).
Above hadith is actually said by Salim, son of Abdullah bin Umar, who is referring to same hadith that Abdullah bin Umar narrated, and in that hadith Abdullah bin Umar narrated referring to Prophet (SAW), that when people asked Prophet (SAW) to pray for our Najd, Prophet (SAW) said that horns of Shaitan would appear from Najd. In other hadiths, Prophet (SAW) pointed towards east of Madina, east from where sun rises (Iraq is neither Najd nor east of Madina neither sun rises in Madina from direction of Iraq) that horns of Shaitan and fitna would come from this place (Najd, that is east of Madina, and is area from where sun rises for Madina). Only difference is that, at the time Salim bin Abdullah was in Basrah, a city that was non-existent at time of Prophet (SAW). Salim bin Abdullah was narrating the hadith referring to his father (so hadith has nothing to do with Basrah …actually, when Prophet (SAW) mentioned the hadith, people did not even knew the name Basrah..
Hadith 4: Narrated Ibn Abi Na’m:I was present when a man asked Ibn Umar about the blood of mosquitoes. **Ibn Umar said, “From where are you?” The man replied. “From Iraq.” Ibn `Umar said, "Look at that! he is asking me about the blood of Mosquitoes while they (the Iraqis ) have killed the (grand) son of the Prophet (Peace be upon him)** . I have heard the Prophet (Peace be upon him) saying, “They (Hasan and Husain) are my two sweet-smelling flowers in this world.”
Again, hadith says nothing about Iraq, but only mentions that Prophet (SAW) said that Imam Hasan (AS) and Imam Hussain (AS) are his (SAW) sweet-smelling flowers in this world.
As for word Iraq in this hadith, that refers to people who were at the time living in Iraq and to whom this hadith was told. Actually, even these people must be from Arabia settled in Iraq, because most of south-eastern Iraq was settled by people from Arabia after passing away of Prophet (SAW).
And so on …
Most funny part is that … if one ask these Wahabis and Liars who want to portray Iraq as Najd and East of Madina, place from where sun rises for Madina, that what Iraq they are talking about, then as idiot they would go deaf and dumb, and that is obvious, because if they would mention name of any city in south-western Iraq (north-east of Madina), you can tell them that the city (be that city Baghdad, Najf, Karbala or Basrah) was not even existing during the time of Prophet (SAW) neither there were Muslims living there or was Muslim rule, so people (Sahabis) would call that place as ‘our’ Najd and ask Prophet (SAW) to pray for that area?.
Here thing to understand is that, Prophet (SAW) may predict for any place in the world, as his knowledge was coming from Allah, but Muslims cannot, nor can they ask Prophet (SAW) to pray for an area considering that as ‘our Najd’, when that area is not Muslim land in any way (at the time they asked for prayer). It is just like I asking you to pray for our brothers on Moon. It is possible that in future there would be Muslims on Moon, but until that does not happen, I could not ask you to pray for our brothers on Moon.
Another thing one should remember that … most of southern Iraq (of today) is inhabited by people of Arabia, that includes Yemen, Hijaz and Najd. Though that all happened after the passing of Prophet (SAW).
Cities founded by Muslim in south-eastern Iraq:
Basrah:in 636 AD, 4 years after passing of Prophet (SAW).
Karbala:in ~680 AD, 48 years after passing of Prophet (SAW).
Baghdadin 762 AD, 130 years after passing of Prophet (SAW).
and
Najfin 791 AD, 159 years after passing of Prophet (SAW).
Plus … all these areas are at ~sea-level … and cannot be called Najd (high-land … or up-land .. or area much above sea-level) by any sensible person.
Plus: None of these areas are located east of Madina … neither sun comes out in Madina from towards these areas.
Sun northern most point is 23.3 degree north of equator … and southern most point is 23.3 degree south of equator.
Basrah: Madina is 24.5 degree and southern part of Iraq (Basrah) is 30.5 degree. So … how can a place 30.5 degree north of equator … and only 8 degree east longitudinally could not be called ‘East’ and could be not taken as place for direction where sun comes out in Madina.
As for Riyadh, Riyadh is also 24.6 degree north of equator and 8 degree away from Madina longitudinally (though, since it is at same distance from equator, how far it is longitudinally does not matter), is perfectly ‘East’ of Madina as well as sun in Madina would come from direction of Riyadh.
Further:These areas (south of Iraq) came under Muslim rule during Umar (RA) time, much after passing of Prophet (SAW).
So, anyone with little bit of intelligence and common sense (as according to Quran 8:22) would know that, when none of these places were present during the time of Prophet (SAW), nor any Muslim used to live in this area … area were under Persian rule and people in this area were mostly Zoroastrians) and all these areas came under Muslim rule during Umar (RA) time and Muslims from Arabia started settling there after that time … than how can Muslims (Sahabas) would ask Prophet (SAW) to pray for these areas or for people of these areas?
Hadith 1: Abdullah Ibn-Umar related that once, **he saw the Prophet showing `Iraq with his hand, and saying: "The fitna is here, the fitna is here, the fitna is here, three times, it is from here that will appear the devil's horns,"(sahih)
Now tell me, how can anyone refer to Iraq with hand, when at the time there was no such thing as shape or boundary of Iraq? … Further, how Abdullah bin Umar would know what Prophet (SAW) is showing with his hand (even if that was possible), when he was kid, was 18 year old when Prophet (SAW) left this world), and when no Arab use to even go towards present day Iraq (as there was no mentionable place in Iraq at that time? **
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Without even looking at the subject matter - what I want to decipher is whether this hadith has merit. You said it was fabricated. Merely accusing them of forgeries is not going to stick in academic circles. You and I both need to be able to "prove" misendeavours were committed here.
The way to do this is to seek out old scripture copies of Musnad-e-Ahmad and compare this hadith number with the older manuscript.
You wrote:
Without even looking at the subject matter - what I want to decipher is whether this hadith has merit. You said it was fabricated. Merely accusing them of forgeries is not going to stick in academic circles. You and I both need to be able to "prove" misendeavours were committed here.
The way to do this is to seek out old scripture copies of Musnad-e-Ahmad and compare this hadith number with the older manuscript.
Brother, if I come with hadith that says that Sahabas asked Prophet (SAW) to pray that Pakistan gets nuclear bomb and BeNazir bint Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto becomes first women Prime Minster of Pakistan, as well as Muslim world, and prophet (SAW) prayed that Pakistan gets nuclear bomb and BeNazir bint Z A Bhutto becomes first women Prime Minister of Pakistan as well as Muslim world.
Would you accept such hadith as valid hadith or would say that hadith cannot be true, but it is fabricated?
Brother, if I come with hadith that says that Sahabas asked Prophet (SAW) to pray that Pakistan gets nuclear bomb and BeNazir bint Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto becomes first women Prime Minster of Pakistan, as well as Muslim world, and prophet (SAW) prayed that Pakistan gets nuclear bomb and BeNazir bint Z A Bhutto becomes first women Prime Minister of Pakistan as well as Muslim world?
Would you accept such hadith as valid hadith or would say that hadith cannot be true, but it is fabricated?
I would doubt it as true and probably wager my life on it being untrue ... However, I could not lay claim to it actually being a fabrication until I prove it. The only way to prove it as authentic or inauthentic is to trace its transmission.
There is a slight possibility that what seems obvious to us as being untrue may actually be true and what was previously obvious may have been a symptom of our own deficiency. To eliminate that possibility and to satisfy me that you are right ... That the ahadith that specifically mention Al-Iraq are forgeries then other books quoting these ahadith with variances to the word 'Al-Iraq' would easily demonstrate that. If forgeries of this nature have come about with the word Iraq then they must have only come about within the last 100 or so years. If however there is a clear sanad for these then no matter how inconvenient it may seem ... We have to accept them ...
time? i thought it only had Hijaz?
