What do you guys think about Al-Khalid versus Indian MBT Arjun!
Please post your comments.
Ahsan
Re: Al-Khalid
^^ Khalid beats Arjun hands down.
p.s. no need to put Arrabob "Al" before Khalid.
Re: Al-Khalid
What does Janes say on the issue?
Re: Al-Khalid
Arjun is a failure. Even Indian Army has rejected it. They will induct a few just to face the embarrasment of 20+years it took to develop it, and the billions spent on it.
Arjun is too heavy for the Indo-Pak terrain.
Re: Al-Khalid
Al-Khalid has already entered service, and there are plans to develop the Al-Khalid II
Re: Al-Khalid
Project Arjun, a sitter for Pak MBT Al-Khalid
By: Major General M. L. Popli (retd.)
India's main battle tank Project Arjun is, unfortunately, more flab
than brawn. More a heavyweight than a
performer. A potpourri really, with a French engine, and German seals
fitted into an Indian hull and turret. And
transporting this heavyweight is going to be another problem, which
could limit its operational performance. Project
Arjun has indeed suffered throughout its development, from confusion
and inexplicable delays. And by imbalances
between the Army, the DRDO and the bureaucracy. Pakistan by contrast,
has drawn a lesson from the Indian experience
and avoided the trap of over lasting her R&D's indigenous know-how in
the development of its MBT Khalid.
India's main Battle Tank (MBT) Project Arjun, named after mythical
hero of the Mahabharat, was conceived in 1974. It was
then planned that by 1995, about 10 armoured regiments of the Indian
Army would be re-equipped with Arjun. Depending
excessively on research and development, advanced industrial and
defence production base, project Arjun was planned entirely
to be under taken by the scientists and the engineers indigenously.
Almost six different agencies have been at work on this
project, besides a number of subsidiary organizations.
Published reports revealed that after a number of prototypes and
pre-production models spread over the last 16 years or so,
own Defence and Research Development Organization has managed to
produce an over 60 tons tank. Some armour experts
have termed it as more of a heavyweight than a performer, more of
flabbiness than mobile fire power. Arjun mounts a 120mm
rifled gun deadly in lethal power but wanting in accuracy.
Its performance in various trails was reported to be anything but up
to the mark. It is believed that during in March 1990,
General V. N. Sharma, the then Army Chief of Staff and an armoured
expert, was "quite wild" when only three of the five
rounds hit the 5X5 meter target and no hit was scored against a moving
target. Its trial performance stands in
sharp contrast to that claimed by the DRDO that the tank's main gun
would hit a target 60X60 cm from a distance
of 2000 meter. In another similar field trial a month earlier, only
four of the five rounds had hit a 5X5 meter
target at 1100 meter. Incidentally, such accuracy trials are generally
related to the height of the tanks, usually 2 meter
high. Arjun was basically planned as an
ambitious project with complete indigenous components and assemblies.
It has now been revealed that the Arjun's
sub-systems were all imported except for the hull and the turret. The
imported assemblies include all major
sub-systems such as engine, transmission, track-suspension, gin and
fire control. Our experts are of the view that their
integration, "leaves much to be desired". The auxiliary power unit
from France did not perfectly fit in the tank, with the
German seals not meeting the General Staff qualitative requirements of
withstanding temperatures up to 150 degree Centigrade
. The barely measured up to 120 degrees. Arjun is therefore quite a
"khichri" with the French engine, with German seals fitted
into the Indian hull and turret mounting a not very accurate 120mm
gun. Armoured experts say that another
problem thrown up by the heavyweight is its transportation. Arjun
could present a lot of problem for
transportation by railways particularly through certain portions of
the system. This could impose very serious
limitations on the Arjun's operational performance. In most of the
field armies, the tank transporters and assault bridges are not
usually designed to take such heavy weights. These aspects mostly
highlight the engineering and operational problems.
It would be worthwhile to example financial implications. Both the
Controller and Auditor General (CAG) and Public
Accounts Committee have been very critical of this project relating to
as much as of the rising costs as well as inordinate
delays. Our finance men generally been very unhappy both over the time
and cost factor, originally sanctioned at Rs. 15 crore
per copy, its costs have excalated to nearly double the original
estimates. Dr. Raja Ramanna has stated that the bulk
production of Arjun as Indian Army's MBT would commence sometime in
1992 or so. Hopefully, the Arjun should be the
medium through which our strike corps would achieve their objective.
Experience in the most advanced countries suggests that it takes
nearly 20 years t develop and integrate a tank. However,
appreciating our security environment it is necessary that a state of
the art MBT should become available to our forces by
1994-95. To draw lesson for the future, it is essential to cover this
aspect. Project Arjun throughout its development has
suffered from confusion and perhaps also from avoidable indecisive
delays. It has been dogged by grave imbalances between the
DRDO, the bureaucracy and the Army. It took us nearly 15 years to
appoint an expert senior Armoured Corps officers (Lt.
Gen.) to coordinate the various loose ends. General Tripathi was the
first incumbent. As it is, project Arjun has
involved the utilization of six major imported sub-systems and , there
fore all this talk of idigneousness will not
quite wash. Yet another lesson is that we should not put all our eggs
in one basket and must have fall back
position s and options, despite repeated setbacks - be these in the
ongoing Arjun and the LCA projects and our earliest
dismal experience on HF-24 Muruts. While our
success in missiles is definitely a feather in DRDO's cap, the Arjun
and LCA projects underlines, the need for a
review at the political level whether India can support such wasteful
expenditure and delays. This is an age of globalization
and sharing of technology, along with co-sharing of benefits. We seem
to have paid rather heavily for trying to do it ourselves
in the vain hope of doing it better than all others elsewhere.
Perhaps the political factor and DRDO's overconfidence may have been
major limitations and our political masters and
scientists as well as the users need to have a second look in such
vital areas as defence. And now to take a look at the
development of the MBT by our Western neighbors. Pakistani experts
have apparently drawn a lesson from Indian experience
in this field. They avoided the trap of an over estimating know how
indigenous R&D'' and industrial base. Fortunately, the
bureaucratic working environments in this particular context are far
more efficient and responsive in Pakistan with the need to
Armed Forces being given a respected look, due partly to their role in
the affairs of the state. Reports since last
September continue to suggest that Pakistan has not only been
implementing an ambitious project to upgrade
her existing fleet of Chinese built T-59 tanks, but has also carried
out successful production of her MBT prototypes.
Besides upgrading its T-59 tanks, which number over 1300, Pakistan has
also produced a new upgraded model designated
T-69-2MP with a 105mm rifle bore gun and an improved fire control
system. T-69-2MP which rolled out from the Heavy
Rebuild Factory in December '90 is to be the Pak Army's MBT till a
totally new and vastly improved MBT-2000 Khalid,
named after the famed Arab Conqueror Khalid Bin Walid, enters the
operational service sometime in 1993-94. How did
Pakistan acquire such a favorable lead?
Reports in February-March this year in the Pakistani media heralded
the successful testing of a modern prototype tank at its
Heavy Rebuild Factory (HRF) being redesignated as Heavy Defence
Industries in the ancient University township of Taxila
almost 40kms North of Islamabad. Project MBT-2000 Khalid is being
executed in close collaboration with China's
NORINCO. A memorandum to this effect was signed between the two
countries sometime in the late 80s. According to
analysts MBT-2000 Khalid is rated more than a match for the Soviet
supplied T-72 tanks held by our army. Having
completed the design and development of MBT-2000 Khalid project, a
number of prototypes have been built for
evaluation and trials under different conditions. The preliminary
prototype is being handed over to Pakistan Army for field
trials in June 1991. General Mirza Aslam Beg, the Pakistan Army Chief,
while addressing the annual conference of
commanding officers of tank regiments on March 17, 1991, at Nowshera
(Ahmed Nagar being its Indian counterpart), further
revealed that the production of this tank is expected to commence in
1993. A word, however needs to be mentioned about the
Taxila Industrial Complex. This complex has come to be known as the
Golden Triangle with its two sides comprising Heavy
Mechanical Complex and the heavy Forge and Foundry. Once a total
wildness, Taxila has developed into Pakistan's single
largest heavy industrial complex. Together
with the Wah Ordnance Factories Complex and further north the Kamra
Aeronautical Complex, these reflect
Pakistan's determination to achieve indigenous industrial development
and also that country's well-planned efforts for
self-reliance in vital areas of defence.
According to military analyst, Pakistan adopted a step-by-step
approach towards the manufacture of its MBT-2000 Khalid,
and this is the single most important reason for having stolen a march
over India. They are of the opinion that the Indian
project was too ambitious, whereas Pakistan's approach was more
systematic comprising the following phases:
Setting up of project 711 in the early 80s to rebuild the Chinese T-59
tanks inducted in Pakistan Army after the 1965 conflict
with India. Some 1000 such tanks are being built and 2000 engines of
tanks are being produced. Project 711 was
subsequently expanded and redesignated P-711-K (K in Chinese denotes
extension). This project is designed to
eliminate need for imported components up to 80 percent. More
importantly, on a long term basis, P-711-K has been
planned to establish production base for manufacture of complete MBT.
It is learnt that once the production line for the MBT
2000 gets established, over 100 such tanks will start rolling out to
give Pakistan a level of self-reliance undreamed of earlier.
In this entire process (P-711 to 711-K), various series of tanks such
as P-70, P-85, and finally P-90 (MBT-2000 Khalid) are
being completed in phased manner. Pakistan's
MBT-2000 Khalid will mount a 125mm gun with thermal image converter
and will enter Pakistan's operational service
sometime by the mid-90s thus the T-series of tanks are being
progressively converted into P-Series. Maximum effort
has been devoted to getting the machine souped up as possible mainly
to cut down weight. Just compare the 60 tons Arjun
with the maximum 44 tons P-90 khalid. Now
that T-69-2MP2 has commenced entering Pakistan Army service succeeding
the T-59 series and preceding MBT-2000
Khalid, it is essential to mention some details of this tank. It is
equipped with 105mm gun with a more powerful engine,
special armour for increased protection in the Pakistani built laser
range finder and thermal image sighting system to maximize
the gun range even in the hours of darkness.
It also has an integrated fire control system for reducing engagement
time and increasing accuracy, along with the automatic
fire support system. This tank's most lethal component, the penetrater
ammunition called Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized
Discarding Sabot (APFSDS), is also being indigenously produced. It
will not be out of place to mention that bilateral
discussions are already underway with USA on the possible
co-production of the Abram M1A1 tank which proved its
superiority in the recent Gulf war against Iraq. Pakistan has ruled
out its purchase and signed an agreement in November '90
with the US company General Dynamics for establishing a rebuild
factory for M-Series of tracked vehicles (M-47, M-45A2,
M-68, A3 and M-113 and others). This project
has been designated P-87. Currently, a series of such closely related
projects to manufacture hull, turret, gun
barrels and engines are in various stages of planning-execution. All
these will finally merged into a tank manufacturing factory
that will produce MBT-2000 Khalid. A
comparison of the approaches on the production of MBT-2000 by India
and Pakistan clearly highlights that in such areas
where both research and development, as also the industrial base of a
reasonably high level do not exist, it is in the overall
interest of the country as also its armed forces that we should shed
our political obsessions, bureaucratic ineptitude and the
overestimated vanity of our DRDO. It can surely save the country vast
amount of scarce funds while, at the same time , giving
our armed forces the best weapons system. With the changes in Soviet
Union and Eastern Europe , we definitely need to
review our earlier approach in the sphere.
Re: Al-Khalid
phir se tank bheek may manga kya ? kis say manga china se ya america se.
jis say bhee manga yaad hai naa.1965 may kya american patton tank ko sath.
u know there is one village in india called patton why?
Because there are so many pakistan tanks supplied by US destroyed that the name of the village is now called patton village refer in google site.
how was that now it will like khalid tank village
Re: Al-Khalid
I hear since 1965 indoos have given up tea party in Lahore dream... :D
Re: Al-Khalid
Abbay oye choot ke dhakkan.. is ur own failiure hard for u to swallow?
20 years in the making and this is what u have to say to defend ur failed product?
saala chootiya
Re: Al-Khalid
Ironically, the success of the Al-Khalid versus the Arjun is a reflection of the Pakistan Army's political power.
Both the Indian army and the Pakistan army knew exactly what they wanted from their next-generation tank.
In Pakistan, the army controlled or had significant influence over the whole military research and manufacture process. So the Al-Khalid got developed on time at lowest cost and did exactly what the army wanted.
India's army has less political power. Its tank needs were processed through many levels of civilian controlled bureaucracy, leading to an inefficient project that failed to make anyone happy.
Re: Al-Khalid
Well said even they hired the brilliant Dr Kurt Tank could not make a fighter(HF-24)
Re: Al-Khalid
How does the Khalid compare to the T-72 of indian army.
Re: Al-Khalid
^^ Al-Khalid & T-80UD are far better.
Re: Al-Khalid
It even beats T-90 of Russia and India, plus T-98 II of China. 
About Loveboy.
Oye Dhukkan, lowest cheapest aircraft that is known as LCA will be no more for production. IAF -->>:crying:
Dont like it! 
Re: Al-Khalid
Al Khalid "beats" T-90, you've got to be kidding. Al Khalid is just a renamed Type 90-II made by NORINCO of China, also known as the MBT 2000. PLA rejected this tank in favor the the Type-98. Pakistan got the production system and renamed the tank Al Khalid after replacing the engine with an Ukranian one.
T-90 is a generation ahead, especially with a welded turret, Kontakt-5 and the ARENA and SHTORA systems.
Al Khalid does not even have a good TI Night Vision system. There was a recent massive corruption scandal.
Re: Al-Khalid
AK is comparable to T-90 but comparing it to T-98 is a joke (a newer bigger improvement on the T-90).
The tank should be good in the northern areas of Pakistan where agricultural land and flooding of areas (as done by indians in 1965 to thwart PA tank advances) did thwart a major invasion by Pakistani pattons with a considerable loss.
Re: Al-Khalid
northern areas… u mean in the mountains?
Re: Al-Khalid
Elaborate, please.
Nope. You need to read more about it, from a non-Indian prespective.
Re: Al-Khalid
Man u r really funny!!!
Re: Al-Khalid
you know what's funny cheetah? I don't know what you meant... but i do know a little of abuses in hindi. lol...