Al-Khalid is Better than Arjun-Phoinx/Pakistan builds better tanks-rivkz

Society Military and Strategic Issues
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Pak says our tanks better, India wants to test

SHIV AROOR

Posted online: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 at 0243 hours IST

NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 12: The Indian Defence establishment may not like to admit it but Pakistan President Musharraf’s claim that their indigenous Al Khalid main battle tank is superior to the DRDO’s Arjun tank has prompted Army headquarters to review the latter’s capabilities.

The Army top brass have directed the Armoured Corps to compare the Arjun with the Russian-made T-90, through extensive trials beginning this month in the Mahajan ranges of Rajasthan.

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According to South Block sources, the five Arjun production-series tanks, handed over by the DRDO in August, will be tested against the T-90s before any decision is taken on inducting more indigenous tanks.

Apart from these five Arjuns, the 43rd Armoured Regiment had been given 14 Arjuns in the past decade, but these were from the pre-production series.

While the DRDO continues to stress on technical parameters like ‘‘specific ground pressure’’ to showcase Arjun, the Army knows that Musharraf may be right as the power-to-weight ratio of Al Khalid is better than the Indian tank.

The Army brass admit that though the Arjun has an excellent armour, a South African gun, an Israeli fire-control system and space, its bulk is still a hurdle. At 56 tons, the Arjun is 13 tons heavier than the Al Khalid, which is a joint effort of the Chinese-Pakistan-Ukrainian industries. Arjun has a 1500 horse-power engine against the Ukranian 1200 horse-power engine in Khalid, but the former churns out 24 hp per ton as compared to the latter’s 26 hp per ton.

It is this power-to-weight ratio — a direct function of the tank’s agility and mobility — that can be a matter of life and death during a war. Besides, at Rs 16 crore a piece, the Arjun is costlier than the Khalid.

While the Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence declined comment, defence analyst K Subrahmanyam said the Arjun was begun with a ‘‘wrong philosophy, just like every other DRDO project of that period.’’

Speaking to The Indian Express, the former Secretary of Defence Production said: ‘‘The DRDO chose not to collaborate with the Russians. It understated the cost of development and this led to time and cost overruns. I knew the Arjun was nowhere close to being operational.’’ However, Arjun has a votary in the former Army chief and Rajya Sabha MP, General Shankar Roy Choudhary. ‘‘I pressed strongly to get Arjun MBT productionalised and put into service while I was in service. But I was also very critical about the delays.’’

‘‘The Arjun project is a case history in bad project management. I still maintain that Arjun, even if it is more costly, will in the long run improve the industrialisation in the country.’’ But at Army Headquarters, they are taking no chances. It is already clear that the missile-firing T-90, not the Arjun, will be India’s main battle tank.

Due to shortage of attack helicopters, the Army has to rely on tanks in case hostilities break out. The Army has also instructed the DRDO to speed up production of Arjun tanks rather than handing them over in piece-meal basis.

But before placing its next order, it will wait for the result of the Arjun versus T-90 tests this winter.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=56882&headline=Pak~says~our~tanks~better,~India~wants~to~test

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No doubt.

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pakistan builds better tanks

indian accept pakistanis built better tanks

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=56882&headline=Pak~says~our~tanks~better,~India~wants~to~test

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The Indian defence analyst in the article hit the nail on the head - India put the ideology of self-sufficiency ahead of practical concerns and designed much of the Arjun in India, where there was little experience of tank design. By contrast, the Al-Khalid is designed in close cooperation with China, which has a long history of tank design and manufacture, so we were able to capitalise on Chinese learnings.

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Al Khalid *is * a Chinese tank with an Ukranian engine and WEstern FCS and TI.

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^^

Exactly my point. Pakistan had no tank design experience, so it was completely illogical to get pakistani to design a tank.

Better to rely on the Chinese for design, and to start merely developing assembly facilities to put the components together as a whole.

India had the luxury of not feeling any compelling threat to its existence, so could try and develop on its own, because its mere survival would not be dependent on such a vehicle.

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The problem with the Arjun was that the Indian Army is full of people who favor the Russian Tank model.

When they gave the Reqs to DRDO to build a tank, they initially asked for a small, fast tank. At that time, the tank was called "Chetak." Midway through the process, Pakistan began evaluating the American M1A1, which was a bigger (4 man crew), heavier and more powerful tank. So the IA then told DRDO - forget your current design and go build us a tank that can compete with the M1 and NATO style tanks. So the DRDO hired the famous German firm Krauss Maffei Wegman, the same company that made the World class Leopard tanks to help with the design. As a consequence, the Arjun was designed as a bigger tank, with a 4 man crew and emphasis on crew protection, armor and firepower.

They went to German companies MTU and Renk for the engine and transmission respectively and a Dutch firm for the FCS. The Gun, gearbox and suspension was made locally.

By the time prototypes were built, Zia had died and Pakistan forgot about the M1A1s. IA then said - We don't need a big tank. Sorry.

Then in the late 1990s, Pakistan went to Ukraine to get T-80s, which startled the Indian Army. Without upgrades, the T-80 would blow the Indian T-72s out of the sand. So they asked for new tanks - IMMEDIATELY. Knowing that if they accepted the Arjun in large numbers, they'd have to rethink their entire doctrine, they went to Russia for the T-90s.

That is why the Arjun is stuck today.

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Another factor that I read behind the Arjun project's problem actually stems from India having a strongger civilian control over the military than in Pakistan - the Arjun project suffered from having to be acceptable not only to the military (which wanted the most suitable tank), but to civilian authorities (which wanted the most politically acceptable tank, in terms of image, cost, countries which components were sourced from, etc).

Essentially, military research in India is a civilian-controlled enterprise. This is good for democracy because it removes power from the military.

In Pakistan, the comparitively extended power of the military means that even under civilian rule, military research is controlled entirely by the military which operates with minimal civilian oversight). This enabled the Pakistani military to formulate a set of requirements and then develop a tank that fulfilled exactly those requirements.

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The Arjun project had a lot of problems.

  1. DRDO accepted the project and committed to deadline when they had zero experience in building a tank

  2. The Army gave the GSQRs (Specs) but the funds came independent of the army. This meant that the Army had no stake in the success of the project and changed specs at will, based on whoever was in charge at a given point of time

  3. The Army had a Russian design in mind, but the DRDO built from the ground up.

  4. While the Army was ready to accept defects in foreign products, theu expected everything to be perfect with local ones before accepting them

  5. There was poor communication between the Army and DRDO

In comparison, the Indian Navy has inducted about 60-70% of the products it ordered from the development agencies. This was because it was willing to accept bugs and got them fixed gradually.

The one good thing about the Arjun was that DRDO got 20 years of precious experience with land combat systems. This has had many positive effects. The DRDO has now successfully upgraded the T-72s, has built bridge layers and combat recovery vehicles and many spinoffs.

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Re: Al-Khalid is Better than Arjun

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by phoenixdesi: *
Pak says our tanks better, India wants to test

....
[/QUOTE]

Any country building good tanks has to be good in making buldozers. The two machines have the same traction, the same stearing, similar engine etc. Pakistan should now be able to compete with the likes of Caterpiller.

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So are we willing to import those from Israel Anti. I guess you are talking about the Caterpiller that Israeli army is using in its low-intensity war against the hapless Palestinians.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Minerva: *
So are we willing to import those from Israel Anti.....
[/QUOTE]

huh! I was talking about making bulldozers in Pakistan and then competing with US manufacturer of heavy machinery "Caterpillar".

I used Caterpillar because the company has always been an icon in the construction industry.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Minerva: *
.... I guess you are talking about the Caterpiller that Israeli army is using in its low-intensity war against the hapless Palestinians.
[/QUOTE]

No not really.

On a side note: Sharonies and Palis are made for each other. I don't consider any of them "hapless". One uses rockets from air, and the other uses Qassaam and both kill civilians.

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Oh sorry, yes you were talking about producing them in Pakistan. Now, I know got your point.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Minerva: *
...I now got your point.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

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Re: Al-Khalid is Better than Arjun

thanks for sharing the info.
its an useful article.
good to see some meaingful discussion on the topic. how many times you see this if the topic is related to indian or pakistani defence.??