Salaam,
What group do most 12er Imami Shi’ahs belong to?
And in layman’s language what are the differences between the two?
Re: Akhbari or Usuli?
good question bruv...i d love to knw as well.
Re: Akhbari or Usuli?
The major two school of thoughts within Islam = Sunni (majority), Shia (minority).
Now within these two main schools are various branches for example, Sunnis have Ahmedis, Hanbalis, Salafis etc. Whereas Shias have Agha Khanis, Ismaelis, Zaydis, Alawis etc.
Now, large majority within the Shia school of thought (close to 90%) follows the unbroken chain of the 12 Imams from the lineage of Imam Ali (as) and Fatima (as) (they are also known as Itha Ashari). Within this branch there exists a subgroup that do not approve to follow anybody until the 12th Imam, Al Mahdi (as), returns. This group is known as Akhbari, i.e. they seek guidance exclusively from the Akhbar or knowledge left behind by the 12 Imams. They are mainly found in a certain part of Iraq that I am forgetting the name of at the moment.
As far as I know...
The difference is essentially a matter of where people get their jurisprudential (fiqhi) knowledge. Usoolis, which constitute the vast majority of Shi'a 12ers today, believe in a system called 'taqlid' wherein they derive their understanding of religious laws and rulings from 'marajae taqlid': mujtahideen (learned men fit to interpret religious law) who have passed through several levels of religious scholarship and are recognized to be the most learned and competent of the era's scholars. It should be noted that not all Usoolis are bound to follow the edicts of a specific scholar (see below). There are a lot of finer points worth reading up on in that respect.
According to al-islam.com, the fundamentals of taqlid are thus:
*"In matters of religious laws, apart from the ones clearly defined, or ones which are indisputable, a person must: *
- ** either be a Mujtahid (jurist)** himself, capable of inferring and deducing from the religious sources and evidence; **
- ** or if he is not a Mujtahid himself, he should follow one, i.e. he should act according to the verdicts (Fatwa) of the Mujtahid; **
- ** or if he is neither a Mujtahid nor a follower (Muqallid), he should act on such precaution which should assure him that he has fulfilled his religious obligation. For example, if some Mujtahids consider an act to be haraam, while others say that it is not, he should not perform that act. Similarly, if some Mujtahid consider an act to be obligatory (Wajib) while others consider it to be recommended (Mustahab), he should perform it. Therefore, it is obligatory upon those persons who are neither Mujtahids, nor able to act on precautionary measures (Ihtiyat), to follow a Mujtahid."**
Akbharis, on the other hand, don't believe in the application of reason (ijtihad) in religious rulings and don't believe in the authority of the marajae, and they rely solely on Qur'an, ahadith, and popular understanding to interpret religious law. The general Usooli argument against this methodology is that it's impossible not to use 'aql when considering ahadith contextually, and while Qur'an and ahadith may be more than sufficient to address many understood laws, there are more finite details in many religious matters that might not be addressed directly in religious canon, thus leaving a need for scholarly interpretation.
Sorry in advance for any discrepancies or errors!
The major two school of thoughts within Islam = Sunni (majority), Shia (minority).
Now within these two main schools are various branches for example, Sunnis have Ahmedis, Hanbalis, Salafis etc. Whereas Shias have Agha Khanis, Ismaelis, Zaydis, Alawis etc.
Now, large majority within the Shia school of thought (close to 90%) follows the unbroken chain of the 12 Imams from the lineage of Imam Ali (as) and Fatima (as) (they are also known as Itha Ashari). Within this branch there exists a subgroup that do not approve to follow anybody until the 12th Imam, Al Mahdi (as), returns. This group is known as Akhbari, i.e. they seek guidance exclusively from the Akhbar or knowledge left behind by the 12 Imams. They are mainly found in a certain part of Iraq that I am forgetting the name of at the moment.
Either you are extremely ignorant or you are a pathological liar. Ahmedis are not a branch of sunnis, they are non muslims according to sunnis.
As far as I know...
The difference is essentially a matter of where people get their jurisprudential (fiqhi) knowledge. Usoolis, which constitute the vast majority of Shi'a 12ers today, believe in a system called 'taqlid' wherein they derive their understanding of religious laws and rulings from 'marajae taqlid': mujtahideen (learned men fit to interpret religious law) who have passed through several levels of religious scholarship and are recognized to be the most learned and competent of the era's scholars. It should be noted that not all Usoolis are bound to follow the edicts of a specific scholar (see below). There are a lot of finer points worth reading up on in that respect.
According to al-islam.com, the fundamentals of taqlid are thus:
*"In matters of religious laws, apart from the ones clearly defined, or ones which are indisputable, a person must: *
- ** either be a Mujtahid (jurist)** himself, capable of inferring and deducing from the religious sources and evidence; **
- ** or if he is not a Mujtahid himself, he should follow one, i.e. he should act according to the verdicts (Fatwa) of the Mujtahid; **
- ** or if he is neither a Mujtahid nor a follower (Muqallid), he should act on such precaution which should assure him that he has fulfilled his religious obligation. For example, if some Mujtahids consider an act to be haraam, while others say that it is not, he should not perform that act. Similarly, if some Mujtahid consider an act to be obligatory (Wajib) while others consider it to be recommended (Mustahab), he should perform it. Therefore, it is obligatory upon those persons who are neither Mujtahids, nor able to act on precautionary measures (Ihtiyat), to follow a Mujtahid."**
Akbharis, on the other hand, don't believe in the application of reason (ijtihad) in religious rulings and don't believe in the authority of the marajae, and they rely solely on Qur'an, ahadith, and popular understanding to interpret religious law. The general Usooli argument against this methodology is that it's impossible not to use 'aql when considering ahadith contextually, and while Qur'an and ahadith may be more than sufficient to address many understood laws, there are more finite details in many religious matters that might not be addressed directly in religious canon, thus leaving a need for scholarly interpretation.
Sorry in advance for any discrepancies or errors!
A very precise and true answer, i am impressed.
Re: Akhbari or Usuli?
^Firstly, you could have made your point just as well by using a bit more polite and civilized language.
2ndly, According to Shias, Alawis are non-Muslims too. But principally they are, and will always be considered a branch or an offshoot of the Shia.
Similarly, you will meet a Christian who will totally reject Catholism and the teachings of Saint Pauls. This will not eliminate their roots which will always be traced back to the Christianity. Example:
PML is a political party. It breaks into PML-Q and PML-N. Now PML-N will say that PML-Q has nothing to do with the original PML and vice versa. Would that change the fact that both rooted out from a common entity, irrespective of which one is in reality closer to the original concept of the PML? (which is a different argument altogether).
Re: Akhbari or Usuli?
Thank you lilacdreams for sharing a detailed, technical definition.
Re: Akhbari or Usuli?
The majority of Shias are Usooli, then Akhbari and then Imami I believe.
Usooli's believe in ijtihad and take marja's word FROM the Qur'aan and ahadith for any fiqh issues as they can make it simpler. Akhbari's don't believe is marjaiyyat and focus only on the Qur'aan and ahadith. Imami's are against ijtihad and all ayatullahs.
^Firstly, you could have made your point just as well by using a bit more polite and civilized language.
2ndly, According to Shias, Alawis are non-Muslims too. But principally they are, and will always be considered a branch or an offshoot of the Shia.
Similarly, you will meet a Christian who will totally reject Catholism and the teachings of Saint Pauls. This will not eliminate their roots which will always be traced back to the Christianity. Example:
PML is a political party. It breaks into PML-Q and PML-N. Now PML-N will say that PML-Q has nothing to do with the original PML and vice versa. Would that change the fact that both rooted out from a common entity, irrespective of which one is in reality closer to the original concept of the PML? (which is a different argument altogether).
Does not seem to be good analogy, unless you explain why Alawis are considered non-muslims. I try not to discuss sectarian differences and only commenting on your analogy.
Even then, (right or wrong is not to debate here), but Ahmadis are considered non-muslims based on the basic notion agreed by both Shias and Sunnis that no prophet is to come after Muhammad PBUH. As I understand, they do not consider Ahmadis even a sect of islam based on this difference. Again I am not debating if this is right or wrong. In this way, DD is right, Ahmadis are not branch of Sunnis. Agree that his comments were harsh though.
Re: Akhbari or Usuli?
^Alawis are considered non-Muslim because they elevate the status of Imam Ali (as) to the level of rabobiyat.
I admittedly lack knowledge about the Ahmedis. Please, could you tell me for my information, where they originated from? What was the mazhab of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad before he started his own mission?
The major two school of thoughts within Islam = Sunni (majority), Shia (minority).
Now within these two main schools are various branches for example, Sunnis have Ahmedis, Hanbalis, Salafis etc. Whereas Shias have Agha Khanis, Ismaelis, Zaydis, Alawis etc.
Now, large majority within the Shia school of thought (close to 90%) follows the unbroken chain of the 12 Imams from the lineage of Imam Ali (as) and Fatima (as) (they are also known as Itha Ashari). Within this branch there exists a subgroup that do not approve to follow anybody until the 12th Imam, Al Mahdi (as), returns. This group is known as Akhbari, i.e. they seek guidance exclusively from the Akhbar or knowledge left behind by the 12 Imams. They are mainly found in a certain part of Iraq that I am forgetting the name of at the moment.
Hey thanks for the info.
^Alawis are considered non-Muslim because they elevate the status of Imam Ali (as) to the level of rabobiyat.
I admittedly lack knowledge about the Ahmedis. Please, could you tell me for my information, where they originated from? What was the mazhab of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad before he started his own mission?
Koi Batlaye, Keh Hum Batlayen Kia!
And you have over 1000 posts? Please read at least this forum for some of your answers.
Hey thanks for the info.
You are welcome brother. Any questions about the Shias, please feel welcome to ask.
I admittedly lack knowledge about the Ahmedis. Please, could you tell me for my information, where they originated from? What was the mazhab of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad before he started his own mission?
Please don't ask the people on this board and rather go have a look yourself at their website. alislam.org
People here will only tell you what their Mullah told them.
Koi Batlaye, Keh Hum Batlayen Kia!
And you have over 1000 posts? Please read at least this forum for some of your answers.
Janab e Aali, hum aap hi say mukhatib thay.
By the way, I have been here long enough too and I think if we all started to use the search engine for the answers then this forum might shut down. Thank you anyway.
Janab e Aali, hum aap hi say mukhatib thay.
By the way, I have been here long enough too and I think if we all started to use the search engine for the answers then this forum might shut down. Thank you anyway.
Shukriyah Aap Mujhe Is Laaiq Samjhay :-)
But I did not recommend searching the search engine, I did say read at least this forum. There has been many posts related to Ahmadi faith.