The dream that went sour! The great ideological defeat of Hinduism by Islam!
Musalman, if you don’t mind I would like to respond to your post.
I simply have to get this off my chest. I have kept quiet before when you posted stuff because I felt that my comments would not be welcome. But please allow me get one thing clear at least.
I am ashamed of you. I am ashamed of calling you my muslim brother.
Why?
Because you don’t act like one. Over the past few days you have managed to insult every Hindu on this forum. You are possibly the most insensitive muslim I know. And as such, you are not my favourite ambassador of Islam.
I have been wondering at what you have meant by the inflammatory posts that you have placed on this forum. Is it possible that you are good intentioned but were simply unconscious while insulting others? Or does your deliberate arrogance give you a valid excuse to criticize non-muslims?
Only you can answer that my brother. I do not know your heart and intentions. All I know are the words and actions that I have seen from you over the last few days in this forum. And believe me, those actions show a profound lack of respect and understanding for a basic principle of Islam. That has led to you having a profound lack of respect and understanding for people in general. Especially non-muslim brothers and sisters.
How do you think you are faring on this path? If you think you can propogate Islam at the expense of other religions then you have another thing coming. Every criticism on another person’s beliefs and every intellectual attack on his/her philosophy makes the other person prone to criticising our own beliefs rather than accepting them.
Musalman, I advise you as a brother to rethink about your approach. There is no doubt that you have a great deal of knowledge which can benefit me and many people on this forum. Simply take the arrogance factor out of the equation. It will help you to become more understanding and far more objective. Otherwise it makes you look bad. Remember, a good discussion is one where all participants benefit mutually. It is not a battle. It is not a zero-sum game. Take this into account and then will you be successful.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited November 22, 2000).]
Thank you Partypooper for relaying eloquently and succinctly what many of us are feeling.
wow adil that was a really nice speach..i m really proud of u..very nicely said..if u ever find me being arrogant or whatever ..do tell me like u told musalman..i liked every word of it..u are really cool and its really hard to be cool u know
The dream that went sour! The great ideological defeat of Hinduism by Islam! <<<
very true. Longlive Pakistan!
Dear brother PartyPooper,
and all those who sympathize with non-believers and Mushrikun, among them are Hindus, First of all I am not ashamed to call you as my Muslim brother neither am I ashamed of any thing that I had written. Secondly, I have a good news for all of you, EVERY THING, EVERY ASPECT of their belief will be defeated, their ideology, their land, their people, their customs, their traditions, their civilization thus every thing that they ever owned or associated to themselves will be subdued by the virtue of the following words of ALLAH (SWT).
Surah As-Saff, Verse, 9
He it is Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikun [polytheists(Hindus), idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger PBUH] hate it.
Also by virtue of the following words of ALLAH (SWT), we are ordered to wage Jihad be it physical, psychological or ideological till either they embrace Islam or they become a protected community under Islam. Intellectual attack on their belief is completely justified, because their belief is wrong and would not stand any intellectual attack. They are more then welcome to defend any intellectual attack. After all a Muslim is always prepared to defend the DEEN of ALLAH (SWT) by HU’s will from any attack, call it intellectual or any thing else. As far as insult is concern, Ideological warfare is by no means any Insult.
Surah Al-Qital, Verse 4
Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others.
Remember Dawa and Jihad can go together. Truth is Truth whether One likes it or not. Yes, kindly let me know if you ever feel that part or any of my messages do no confirm to QURAN and SUNNAH of the Messenger (PBUH) of ALLAH (SWT)
[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited November 22, 2000).]
All Sympathizers of non-believers and Mushrikun, (Hindus) read the following:
Words of ALLAH (SWT), Surah Al-'Imran, Verse 118
O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Hindus, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.
Following is a very small example of what they have to say about you and your DEEN, they are not necessarily replies to me:
QUOTE
* US HINDUS ARE SUPERIOR THAN THEM MUSLIMS IN EVERY RESPECT."
* I think Allah forgot to pur some brain in yous head. Instead he must have put some cow dung there
*OIC should be renamed from Organization of Islamic Countries to Organization of Islamic Cowards.
*Muslim umma a big joke of the century.
* Let the pakis bark
*There is no paradise everything is on this earth...as for only muslim going to paradise bunch of hogwash.
*Me-thinks, that had any-other country been in place of India, Pakistan would have been bombed three times over for the kind of terrorist-activities (by proxy) , it indulges in.
* We crushed the Pakis in 1971
* I don't think God can ever say "please me or I will throw you in hell fire"...this sounds so funny.... You make me laugh...
* The Pak-sponsored terrorism needs to be strangulated by the balls
* but that does not take away anything from the cowardly/terrorist act.
* Unless its OK in Islam to do anything in the name of Jehad.
* A hindu telling an other brother: You are pathetic and i pity people like you and feel sorry for anybody who comes in contact with you.
* Why doesn't Pakistan take all the Muslims from India and become the First largest Muslims country.
* Hindu referring to one brother: as my neighbor's dog !!
UNQUOTE
Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. (3:118)
I am grateful to Musalman for a couple of things: the relative civility (to me, if not non-muslims) of his first response and a general principle existing in Islam that he has unconsciously helped to raise.
However, that does not mean to say that I am happy with both his responses. On the contrary, I find them disturbing.
I think my first reply to Musalman was largely ignored by Musalman himself. It is true that he does indeed refer to aspects of my response… however it appears that he has not reflected upon his activities here in this forum. Which was the main point of my reply. Without such hindsight, Musalman will not be helped in his silly crusade that he has decided to launch against non-muslim brothers or sisters.
I am also concerned about the references that he has so kindly provided in his rebuttal. I am of the belief that he is inferring the wrong context of these verses that he has selected. I have sent his response with reference to these verses to a scholar for checking.
This in turn raises another aspect that Musalman has inadvertantly brought up. Muzna has already expressed concern over the endless heated debates which tend to occur between sunnis, shias, wahabies and ahmedis. Instead, if we can ask each other to discuss issues on the form of Dawah and what is apropriate and what is not, we can help each to cultivate a more understanding and respectful atmosphere for each other in this forum. We cannot expect to gain respect from non-muslims if we cannot establish respect among ourselves. If this is not possible, then people like us should not blame non-Muslims if they get the wrong idea of Islam.
However, this will be unsuccessful if a few self-righteous individuals decide to engage in unconstructive debates with other participants of this forum. Which is already happening now as I write this.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited November 22, 2000).]
Following is a very small example of what they have to say about you and your DEEN,
They you say, Musalman, i've got a verse for you, its from surah al muzzammil i think...
Tolerate patiently what (unbelievers) say and part from them in a polite manner.(73:10)
That verse is really useful here and everybody will find this interesting.
Thanx gfq.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
That verse is sooooo good GFQ that I think I'll add it to my signature when I'm ready to change it again.
Thank you.
Partypooper....at least you tried.
"Never in this world can hatred be stilled by hatred; it will
be stilled only by non-hatred-this is the law Eternal." --Buddha
AL-QURA'AN 39:41 "Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are NOT THEIR KEEPER."
[This message has been edited by hk (edited November 22, 2000).]
Brothers and Sisters
Lets not go quoting verses without the proper understanding of them. Obviously the person best to understand these was the Prophet(saw), and and Sahaba after him.
So, lets refer to his saying about how he understood the Qur'an and these verses:
Hadith:
Once a Jew asked the Prophet(saw) 'Do you hate me', the Prophet(saw) replied 'Yes, but I would never be unjust to you'. The Jew replied ' i am satiosfied with that'
Hadith
" I have been ordered to fight the people until they say La illah ha ill-lil la..."
If one looks at the actiosn of the prophet(saw) or the Sahaba, then one finds that they fought in many battles, of which many were offensive.
Lets not go quoting verses without the proper understanding of them.
Alright so what is your understanding of that specific verse...according to the Prophet sallallaho alaihe wa sallam?
Hadith:
Once a Jew asked the Prophet(saw) 'Do you hate me', the Prophet(saw) replied 'Yes, but I would never be unjust to you'. The Jew replied ' i am satiosfied with that'
smiles That proves the point i was trying to make, Islam does not promote revenge. Revenge breeds bitterness and hatred and there is enough of that as it is. The very spirit of revenge is distasteful. The thing that everyone must remember is that there is a difference between seeking revenge and fighting against oppression. Indeed Allah swt has commanded us to protest and to fight against oppression, to protect and to defend not only ourselves, but our fellow muslim brothers and sisters as well. I mean think about it...really...what does revenge mean? it means to inflict harm to avenge in a spiteful..a malignant spirit. It somehow promotes the philosophy of 'returning an evil for an evil'. And that is not the spirit of islam...not at all.
It is said that the person who pursues revenge should dig two graves.
Hadith
" I have been ordered to fight the people until they say La illah ha ill-lil la..."
Here are some verses in the Qu'ran...Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution or oppression, and the religion becomes Allah's. **But if they cease. Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.**(2:190-193)
If one looks at the actiosn of the prophet(saw) or the Sahaba, then one finds that they fought in many battles, of which many were offensive.
What do u mean by offensive exactly? Do you mean it in the sense opposite to defensive, or do you mean it in the sense in which it is synonymous with insultive? Please elaborate.
[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
Hadith:
Once a Jew asked the Prophet(saw) 'Do you hate me', the Prophet(saw) replied 'Yes, but I would never be unjust to you'. The Jew replied ' i am satiosfied with that'
**
[/quote]
It is extremely important to understand the context in which things are/were said.
I was once given the above hadith as supporting evidence that we should hate all Jewish people.
[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
***Following is a very small example of what they have to say about you and your DEEN,*
They you say, Musalman, i've got a verse for you, its from surah al muzzammil i think...
Tolerate patiently what (unbelievers) say and part from them in a polite manner.(73:10)**
[/quote]
You cannot apply this nonviolent (ahimsa)Gandhian philosophy of jesus catholocity of putting forth the other cheek when some one slaps you in one cheek!Not that any gandhian or christian even believes in this NOW.
I might not have heard all these verbal assault by hindus,but on Hindu forum(india forum)i never see the moderater or other hindus speaking against those Hindus who post wrong false lies & trash about islam-muslim-Pakistan.Why do you want to be bleeding liberal is it b/c you have hindu friends.I do .But i deal with them on individual levels.I 'm nice to hindus on one to basis but when institutionalised assault by hindutva,Organiser paper,Sword Of truth,Jan Sangh,Bajrang Dal,RSS,VHP,Shiv sena,Hindu Mahasabha,Anwar sheikh,Arun Shourie,Varsha bhosle,....If you havent heard of them,then you have seen nothing yet of communalism,hate mongering,islam baashing,etc.
"Following is a very small example of what they have to say about you and
your DEEN, they are not necessarily replies to me:
QUOTE
* US HINDUS ARE SUPERIOR THAN THEM MUSLIMS IN EVERY RESPECT."
--->visit sulekha ,indo link & u will see what he means! * I think Allah forgot to pur some brain in yous head. Instead he must
have put some cow dung there
------>i guess by silence muzna GfQ,would give a tacit consent *OIC should be renamed from Organization of Islamic Countries to
Organization of Islamic Cowards.
*Muslim umma a big joke of the century.
* Let the pakis bark
*There is no paradise everything is on this earth...as for only muslim
going to paradise bunch of hogwash.
*Me-thinks, that had any-other country been in place of India, Pakistan
would have been bombed three times over for the kind of
terrorist-activities (by proxy) , it indulges in.
* We crushed the Pakis in 1971
* I don't think God can ever say "please me or I will throw you in hell
fire"...this sounds so funny.... You make me laugh...
* The Pak-sponsored terrorism needs to be strangulated by the balls
* but that does not take away anything from the cowardly/terrorist act.
* Unless its OK in Islam to do anything in the name of Jehad.
* A hindu telling an other brother: You are pathetic and i pity people
like you and feel sorry for anybody who comes in contact with you.
* Why doesn't Pakistan take all the Muslims from India and become the
First largest Muslims country.
* Hindu referring to one brother: as my neighbor's dog !!
UNQUOTE"
So Muzna,Girl from Quraish,& those hrithik friendly pakistanis how do they plan to repond to there NICE ppl. who 'dont really mean" what they say ,all Hindus are not anti muslim(praying to allah for that)When they maake a dastan from one sairaa sarwar honor killing when 50 million fetecide occur in india ,bide burning 500/year in delhi alone &40 muillion womenaabandoned to fend themselves by prostituion,we still could feel shame for ONE saira in comparision to 100 million death of women!!
That is not an excuse to follow their example.
The same comment applies as above.
Anyway, there is another point to be made.
Hinduism frequently comes under unjustified attack from non-hindu pundits and is always accused of a nature which is somewhat derogatory. Whether that is the case or not, these pundits frequently make the same mistake. They equate the people and practices of Hinduism to the religion itself. This is misleading because not every Hindu necessarily follows Hinduism to the core.
Azad Munna sir
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
I can assure you that you will find black sheep in any community. Just because those black sheep exist does not mean that it is true for the community as a whole. At the same time you always will find people in that same community who do not endorse such thoughts and actions. This has always been true especially in the case of Hindus. You can always find decent respectable people who do not support these kind of activities.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Even we have people like these on this forum.
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
Azad Munna,
I see bitterness and hurt in your post. But unfortunately I am having great difficulty in understanding what you are saying. You need to be a little more clear so that I can answer you.
If I can take what Partypooper has written as a guideline to interpret what you have said, then I can only agree with him.
Just because there are bad people around it doesn't mean that I need to respond to them in the same fashion.
And I do believe that tolerance and turning the other cheek works.
Furthermore, the forums that you speak of are predominantly populated with Hindus. Of course there will be hate-mongering there. Just like there are anti-Hindu, anti-Jewish, anti-Ahmadi, anti-wahabi, anti-Christian, etc. campaigns run here in GupShup. If you decide to be a participant in that environment, then be prepared to face negativity.
Any way the theme of this thread is about Hinduism as an ideology has already failed. The dream of Akhand Bharat, never came true, it was a great ideological defeat of Hinduism by Islam. So, Hinduism as an ideology had to be dumped for Western Ideological concept. India is compelled after failure of its own ways to try foreign methods, for example capitalistic economic system and democratic political system. Since, Hinduism does not give any direction in these important aspects of life so it had to be borrowed from some body else. WHY?