Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Ahmedjee, no body is really talking about Jamat-eislami, sipah this and that... lets not hide behind crimes of those groups to hide imperfections/fitna of Qadiyanism which is attributed to Islam.
Frankly, anybody who QUESTIONS Qadiyanism is not necessarily connected or supporter of sipah-this and sipah that or that jamat-islami.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Ok, fair enough.
So tell me Jaan Leva, how is Qadiyanism a fitna? How do you define a fitna? How does Quran define a fitna? And be careful with your answer.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
I’ve pretty much answered it in this reply.
Moreover, how can you say that at the time of Prophet Mohammad bin Abdullah who was born in Makkah the kuffar at that time called him fitna? When they knew clear cut the honesty and truthfulness of the prophet? When he was presenting something totally different and NOT another version of their idol worshipping? Qadiyanis today present a different version of Islam which was invented, created by the imperial british and that is why it is a fitna.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
With offices in 182 countries and 200 million followers(greater than population of Pakista), I guess its a major religion..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya#Views_of_Muslims
But yes, Ahmadis are not muslims.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Jan Leva, they, the kuffar, called AnHazoor (saw) a lot of things, pretty much the same things the previous prophets were called and so Mirza Sahib (as) is called the same things. Fitna is a small word, syntactically inferior, prophets get a lot worse galiyaN. And their previous honesty doesn't shame the name callers. If you don't know, Mirza Sahib (as) was famous for his piousness, shyness, humbleness, truthfulness but that didn't stop others to call him names after his claim.
So, you argued that if someone claims that he is your father, you will get all angry and call him back names. Trying to make the analogy that if someone calls' their religion Islam, you will get angry too in the same way.
If I take your argument and measure everyone with the same yard stick, then I have to give the Christians and the Jews the right to get angry and call Muslims a fitna because we claim that Hazrat Isa (as) or Hazrat Musa (as) as our prophets. Jews should have every right to get angry that we claim to present the true story about Ibrahim (as) and Ismail (as) and Christians should hate us for correcting their religion by calling Hazrat Isa (as) a human. Jews should be outraged that we circumcise our male children according to their tradition and consider growing a beard part of our religion.
Anyway, I would like to know what if the true Imam Mahdi appears in say some place like Indonesia and starts preaching what should he call his religion? If Islam, then which version of Islam should he preach? The one you consider to be true? If so then can the others call him a fitna as it will certainly offend them and ask him to preach under some other name?
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
In simple layman understandings, it is a fitnah because muslims with less knowledge think of them as Muslim and can get their aqaaid corrupted.. like they can start believing in Mirza Sahib to be prophet thus deviating away from Islam altogether… that’s nothing but the disbelief in Muhammad:saw:
Qadiyanism, if presented as Islam, is Fitnah for sure…
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
He will appear in Makkah in Baitullah... not in indonesia or qadiyaan or iran or egypt... There are mutaawatir ahaadeeth on the circumstance when he will appear.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
AQ yar, I am always looking for some knowledgeable Muslims. They are soooo hard to find.
In all seriousness, have some faith!
Don't you agree that the kuffar-e-Mecca used to call AnHazoor (saw) a sorcerer (Nauzobillah) and used to tell others that only the innocent and the foolish come under his spell? Its the same thing.
If you want to argue, argue the faith, argue ideas, argue beliefs. Leave the fitna business to the less knowledgeable.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Great. So when he apears, can the Saudi Royal (I hope aren’t still present) can call him a fitna? How about the Iraqi Shias? Can they call him a fitna?
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
I do not know about the future but Prophet:saw: in his ahaadeeth tells us that when he will appear, he will be the leader of Muslims which conversely also tells me that no hadeeth I have found about Muslims opposing him. When he will come, according to Prophet:saw:, he will be opposed by non-muslims but not by muslims unlike in the case of Mirzaa sahib which in itself is a evidence to his lies.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
AQ, read the beliefs of Jews on the forth coming of the Messiah. They also believe that he will be their uncontested leader who will unite their people. Their beef with Hazrat Isa (as) was that he didn't show up on the right side, with the right name riding a chariot. They didn't contested his belief so much as his lineage.
Christian belief on second coming is the same. They also say they don't know the future if you ask them will he will be a Catholic, Mormon or Baptist.
If AnHazoor (saw) who was the greatest of all prophets, the dearest to Allah, the best of the man kind, was so bitterly opposed, who is Imam Mahdi in comparison.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
I have couple of questions for you.
Give your references from Quran and hadith - leave your mullah’s definitions alone, as they’ve got nothing to do with Islam. And then we’ll discuss whether ahmadies are muslims and their version of Islam is ‘Islam’ or not.
Jazakullah!
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
anyone from Rabwah here? If Ahmedis are equivalent to Mormons, Rabwah is like Salt Lake City of Pakistan. I guess most of the population, communities and hospital belong to the Qadiayanis there.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Assalamualaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatahu,
The persecution against Ahmadi's or anyone for that matter is a most hateful crime according according to the Holy Qur'an, which teaches religious tolerance and freedom of conscience.
"...for persecution is worst than killing..." (2:192)
"And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is professed only for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the wrongdoers." (2:194)
"They ask thee about fighting in the Sacred Month. Say, 'Fighting therein is a heinous thing, but to hinder men from the way of Allah, and to be ungrateful to Him, and to hinder men from the Sacred Mosque, and to turn out its people therefrom, is more heinous in the sight of Allah; and persecution is worst than killing.' And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you back from your Faith, if they can. And whoso from among you turns back from his Faith and dies while he is a disbeliever, it is they whose works shall be vain in this world and in the next. These are the inmates of the Fire and therein shall they abide." (2:218)
" And the Messengers indeed have been rejected before thee, but notwithstanding their rejection and persecution they remained patient until Our help came to them. There is none to change the words of Allah. And there have already come to thee some of the tidings of the past Messengers. (6:35)
"And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do." (8:40)
" And of men there are some who say, 'We believe in Allah;' but when they are made to suffer in the cause of Allah, they regard the persecution of men as if it were the punishment of Allah. And if help comes from thy Lord, they are sure to say, 'Certainly, we were with you.' Is not Allah best aware of what is in the breasts of His creatures?" (29:11)
This last verse clearly shows that though persecution and tribulation by ay of torture solely due to religious beliefs seems like a punishment from Allah, it is no punishment, but is a trial from Allah, and is the natural order of things, for no Messenger came who was not mocked at.
So those who consider that Ahmadi's should be slapped or what not, should fear Allah, for they have committed a sin worse than that of manslaughter, which is equivaled to that of the mass murder of the whole of humanity in Ch. 5 verse 33.
The Holy Prophet (saw) prophesied in these words about the Muslim Ummah of the latter days:
"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them."
(Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)
"The best century is the one in which I live, then the next century, then the century after that. Then there will spread falsehood at the hands of people who will take pride in their wealth and riches and will grow fat on the earnings of others."
(Tirmidhi & Bukhari, Kitab Al-Shahadat)
As foretold in this tradition of the Holy Prophet, Islam began to decline after the first three centuries of uninterrupted conquests and growing prosperity, till it suffered a very serious check in about 271 A.H. when its graded decline and decay continued till it reached its nadir in the next one thousand years that the reference has been made in the Quranic verse:
"Then shall it go up to Him in a day the duration of which is a thousand years." (32:6)
In another of his sayings, the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, is reported to have said:
"Faith will ascend to the Pleiades and a man of Persian descent will bring it back to earth."
(Sahih Bukhari, Kitab-al Tafseer)
Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 *sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, **"They are those who will be like me and my companions.***"
Other than Tirmidhi, Ibne Maja gives three independent narrations of the same hadith. Talking about the authenticity of this hadith Abu Mansur Abd al-Kahir ibn-Tahir Al-Baghdadi says:
"There are many isnad (independent testimonies) for the tradition dealing with the division of the community. A number of following companions have handed it down as coming from the Prophet (peace be upon him): Anas ibn-Malik, Abu-Hurairah, Abu-l-Darda, Jabir, Abu-Sa'id al-Khidri, Ubai ibn-Ka'b, Abd-Allah ibn-Amr ibn-al-'As, abu-Imamah, Wathilah ibn-al-Aska' and others. It is also handed down that the pious Caliphs mentioned that the community would be divided after them, that one sect only would save itself, and the rest of them would be given to error in this world, and to destruction in the next."
Next i would like to correct joeking in his complete misunderstanding and unintelligent remark and erroneous translation of "Mujjaddid". A Mujjaddid is a Reviver of Religion, and was used by the mouth of the Holy Prophet (saw) himself:
"Verily God will appoint for this Ummat in the beginning of every century, one who will restore for it its faith (Mujjaddid)."
(Abu Dawood, Kitabul Fitan)
*"Every century raise a Reformer from among the Muslims who would revive the faith *(Abu Daud, *Vol.11, p.241;*Mishkat, Kitabul Ilm)."
So your personal interpretation of Mujjaddid holds no weight and is completely nullified and debased as untruth by the above AHadith.
Secondly, about the Prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; there is a verse in the Holy Qur'an which declares those who obey Allah and the Holy Prophet (saw) as Prophets or at the status and caliber of the Prophets:
"And Whoso obeys Allah, and this Messenger (saw), shall be among those on whom Allah bestows His favors - namely - the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous, and an excellenct company are they." (4:70)
"This grace is from Allah, and Allah suffices as One Who is All-Knowing." (4:71)
Do you then dare or attempt to hold back the grace of Allah, which descends on whomsoever of His servants as he pleases? And if every type of Prophethood has indeed come to an end, then what, I ask, is this verse doing in the Holy Qur'an? Why has Almighty Allah exalted the followers of the Holy Prophet (saw) to the status of the Prophets if the Holy Prophet (saw) was the last Prophet in absolute time. The verse should have left out the highest catagory of the Prophets if every type of Prophethood was finished with the appearence of the Holy Prophet (saw). But no, indeed the followers of the Holy Prophet (saw) who are sincere and obedient are like the Prophets of God as the Holy Prophet (saw) declared himself:
"The true divines among my followers will be like the prophets of Israel."
Do people then think that they can withold the prize of prophethood from a true Muslim, while Allah Ta'Alaa has declared them as having the status of Prophets in His everlasting Book, and while the Holy Prophet (saw) has declared such Muslims as the Prophets of Bani Israel? Indeed not, no one has that athority or power, indeed there is no proof in the Holy Qur'an that no kind of Prophet will ever appear after the Holy Prophet (saw), excpet for the phrase 'KhatamanNabiyyeen', which they knowingly missinterpret to meaning simply the Last in time, while the word used is Khatam, meaning seal, and not Khatim, which means last. Also, please my Urdu speaking brothers, we are dealing with an Arabic phrase not an Urdu phrase, do not attempt to translate the Urdu meaning of Khatam in place of the Arabic meaning, thank you.
Reffering to the above Quranic verses, do we not pray repeatedly in our everyday lives:
"Guide us along the straight path, the path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy favors." (1:6-7)
Then what favors and blessings do you ask for if Prophethood is not included?
In chapter 7 verse 36 Allah clearly proclaims that he will continue sending prophets until the Day of Resurrection, the Khatamiyyat of the Holy Prophet (saw) means that with his grand comming, no Prophet can arise after him who will not be of his ummah, who will not follow his Shariah, and that even though prophets may come after the Holy Prophet (saw) no new Law-Bearer can come, the Qur'an is the Last in time of the Divine Laws, and that now no Prophet can appear who is outside of the pale of Islam, those Prophets will be subordinate Prophets to the Holy Prophet (saw) and will be his perfect servants and followers. This is what is meant by the verse 70 in Surah Nisaa.
If you think that the Muslims cannot raise to the status of the Prophets, then you are surely debasing the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (saw) with such hidiousness and ugliness that Satan has made it appear good in your eyes. How can you believe that from the Ummah of Moses (as) countless Prophets were raised among their own followers, yet Islam, whose teachings are infinately superior, cannot concieve even one man who is righteous enough to call a Prophet, what an insult indeed! Why should we be so deprived of Guidance and righteousness that we need to borrow a Prophet from the Ummah and Shariah of Moses (as), while declaring that no Muslim is pure enough to be called a Prophet or to be appointed as one. Is this not honoring and preffering the Ummah of Moses (as) over the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (saw), and is this not contrary to the above Quranic verses?
Prophethood can be achieved and bestowed by Allah, but only to those who are followers of the greatest lightbearer, whose brilliance radiates the office of Prophethood upon his followers, that is, the Holy Prophet Muhammad Mustaffaa, the Seal and Best of all the Prophets.
Remember that Allah praises the Muslims in the Qur'an in the words:
"You are the best people raised for the good of mankind." (3:111)
How is it possible then that with this statement of Allah and our prayer from Surah Fatihah, we still cannot achieve the rank of Prophethood, while no Prophet before the Holy Prophet (saw) had the pleasure of following the greatest Prophet, who braught the eternal teaching, yet was able to reach the status of Prophethood, while those who do abide by and obey the Highest Prophet of Allah, cannot even enjoy the status of subordinate Prophethood, which is bestowed only by following the Holy Prophet of Islam (saw).
If this is indeed the case then what is the difference or distinguishing blessings upon the followers of the Holy Prophet (saw), to that of the followers of other Prophets?
Alas, we find in the Holy Quran the verse:
"And those who belive in Allah and His Messengers, they are the Truthful and the Martyrs in the presence of their Lord." (57:20)
This is the distinguishing factor which many Muslims choose to ignore. Read this with 4:70 and you'll see that no other Ummah has been blessed with the continuation of prophethood save that of the Ummah of the most beloved of God, Hadhrat Ahmad Mujtaba (saw).
In fact there are two verses which speak of the comming of a subordinate prophet who would appear among the Ummah of Muhammad (saw), one of which is interestingly in the same Surah as the verse which declares the Holy Prophet (saw) as Khatamannabiyyeen, as if to resolve the issue once and for all:
"**[33:8] **And call to mind when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah and Abraham, and Moses and Jesus, son of Mary, and We indeed, took from them a solemn covenant;"
**"[33:9] **That Allah may question the truthful about their truthfulness. And for the disbelievers He has prepared a painful punishment."
And what is that Covenant that Allah took from the prophets and even from the Holy Prophet (saw)? The answer is undoubtedly in this verse:
"**[3:82] **And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying, 'Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.' And He said, 'Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?' They said, 'We agree.' He said, 'Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses.'"
**"[3:83] **Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors."
Again this 'covenant' is reffered to in 5:71
"Surely We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent Messengers to them. But every time there came to them a Messenger with what their hearts desired not, they treated some as liars, and some they sought to kill."
It is clear that just as Allah took a covenant from the earlier peoples he alo took this covenant from the Holy Prophet (saw), which is that Messengers will appear from among themselves.
What clearer evidence do you need from the Noble Qur'an?
JazakAllah
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance
Re: Ahmadiyyat
I posted the following ahadeeth earlier, and I am gonna post them again.
If one is to accept your interpretation then the following ahadith contradict your interpretation. How do you respond to that?
Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, ‘The Hour will not come ... until nearly 30 "dajjals" (liars) appear, each one claiming to be a messenger from Allah.'" (Bukhari Muslim.)
Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'The Hour will not come until 30 "dajjals" appear, each of them claiming to be a messenger from Allah, wealth increases, tribulations appear and al-Harj increases.'" Someone asked, 'What is al-Harj?' He said, 'Killing, killing.'”(Ahmad.)
Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'The Hour will not come until 30 "dajjals" appear, all of them lying about Allah and His Messenger.’" (Abu Dawud.)
Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'Just before the Hour, there will be 30 "dajjals", each of whom will say, I am a Prophet.'" (Ahmad.)
Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'There will be "dajjals" and liars among my Ummah. They will tell you something new, which neither you nor your forefathers have heard. Be on your guard against them, and do not let them lead you astray.'" (Ahmad.)
Thawban said, "The Prophet said, 'There will be 30 liars among my Ummah. Each one will claim that he is a prophet; but I am the last of the Prophets (Seal of the Prophets), and there will be no Prophet after me.'" (Ahmad.)
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Assalam sherafghan
You have brought up the Ahadith of the 30 liars to which i respond that there where exactly 30 muslims before him who cliamed Prophethood for themselves but where not prophets and met with an evil end. I also ask you now, and not from Ahadith, but from the Holy Quran itslef. Why wasn't Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad destroyed if he was indeed false as you persist in believing. For it it written too many times in the Quran that the curse of Allah is upon the liars and that they are punished not only in the next life but meet with a humiliating end here on earth for all eyes to witness, yet he passed away most successful and full of years. Here are a few Quranic Verses which I point your direction and attention to:
*[69:45] **And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to US, *[69:46] *We would, surely, have seized him by the right hand, *[69:47] *And then, surely, We would have cut his life-vein, *[69:48] **And not one of you could have held Our punishment off from him.
Yet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) remained alive for 26 years after claiming his prophetic Mission and status, and it was in the year 1882 that he proclaimed his commision as Imam Mahdi, and passed away in 1908. At the end of his life he had amasses a following of 400,000 followers, many of whom where Seyeds, and his Community now has a following of over 200,000,000 worldwide in over 182 countries, as was promised to him in the revelation:
"I shall give thee a large party of Islam."
Also his Community is the fastest growing Jamaat in the whole world, compare our growth to every religion and you will see that our percentage and rate of growth outweighs all others.
Is this the end and achievement of false prophets, indeed not. Look as Joseph Smith, Alexander Dowie, Babi, Bahullah, etc, and you will see that as Allah promised no false prophet prevails. In fact this promise and assurance is stated in the Bible as well:
"However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet will die." Deut. 18:20
Thus it is evident that Allah, His words, history as well as the contemporary world bears witness to the truth and triumph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Messiah.
JazakAllah.
I have more to say and more proofs to set forth, so keep it coming and you will find that everything is in support of Ghulam Ahmad (as) who is the return of Jesus (as), but in greater glory.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
How does that justify persecution, which is islamically worse than killing?
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
The Ayah that you quoted from Surah Baqarah, you translated the word Fitnah as persecution, which is wrong. Fitnah means trials that lead to kufr. So, essentially speaking ahmadiyyas are a fitnah for the muslims.
Do you even know why that Ayah was revealed, it was in reference to the actions of Abdullah bin Jahsh (radiAllahuanhu).
Ahmadiyyahs have kufr beliefs and present them as Islam, so they are by definition Zindeeq (heretics) and are worse than Kuffar. Another group that falls into this category is Nation of Islam.
Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan
Instead going back and forth, and arguing without any outcome.
I will refer you to this site.
http://www.irshad.org/exposed.php
If you have an answer for all of the arguments presented against Ahmadiyyas then I’d like to see that, because they have refuted Ahmadiyyas using the texts accepted by Ahmadiyyas.