Agha khan/agha khani people/ismaeli people????

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

FYI - If one needs to know about Ismaili faith or any other faith for that matter, do yourself a favour and make sure the source is NOT from some "anti websites".

You are welcome to Bubble Buster's posts from an anti-Ismaili website splashed herein or, read and understand from an objective source provided below.

The Ismailis: A Look at a Modern Esoteric Islamic Sect.

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim sect, or Ismailis for short, is one of the
largest esoteric sects in Islam. Its members total about 15 million people
who live in India, Pakistan, Central Asia, China, East Africa, Europe, and
North America. They are united by their common allegiance to their spiritual
leader, Imam Karim Aga Khan IV, who is a direct descendant of Imam Ali,
Prophet Mohammed's son-in-law and successor, appointed to lead the Islamic
community.

Most people view Islam as sort of monolithic religion, but in actuality it is
divided into numerous sects. The basic division is the Shia/Sunni split over
who should have succeeded the Prophet after his death. Before his death, the
Prophet appointed Ali as his successor during his last hajj (pilgrimage to
Mecca) in the year 632 CE. However, Ali was rejected by a group of the
Prophet's close followers, known as the Companions, who elected Abu Bakr as
their Khalif (successor of the Prophet). Ali was eventually elected as the
fourth Khalif, but was always considered the leader (Imam) of the Shia (party
of Ali). His assassination and the death of his grandson Hussein split the
Islamic community permanently into two factions: the Shia and the Sunni.

The Imam of the Time is always a descendant of Imam Ali, and has the sole
authority to interpret the Koran according to the time and place. Ismailis
hold that Allah's Noor (the Light) is Eternal; they believe this same Noor
resides in the current Imam of the Time. As an Ismaili friend once said,
"Allah did not stop talking to humankind 1400 hundred years ago; he never has
stopped guiding us." They see the Imam as a reflection of the Divine Reality
in this world.

The Shia followed Imam Ali and each succeeding Imam thereafter, who is
appointed (nass) by the Imam from amongst his male offspring (usually the
eldest son, but not always). Shia Muslims have occasionally faced internal
problems regarding the succession of an Imam. As a result of disagreements,
the community split and a new sect came into existence. Such a split
occurred over the succession of the 6th Imam, Jafar es-Sadiq. It was this
split that gave rise to the Ismaili sect. They followed the Imams from Imam
Jafar's son Ismail, while the majority of the Shia followed his other son,
Musa al-Kazim. Musa's followers are known as Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers);
they are the Shia who today politically control Iran.

Since the split from the Ithna Asharis, the Ismaili movement went on to
spread throughout the Islamic world as a social revolutionary movement.
Ismaili Dais (religious teachers), appointed by the Imam, would form teaching
cells in local communities and conduct missionary work (Dawa); their mission
was to lead others to recognize and give allegiance to the Imam of the Time.

By the 9th century, these groups were strong enough to launch a revolt in
North Africa and Eastern Arabia, which resulted in the formation of the
Ismaili led Fatimid Empire in Egypt (lasting until 1171 CE).

During the later days of the Fatimid Empire, the Ismaili movement split into
two factions over the succession to the 19th Imamate. The Must'ali factions,
who maintained control over the Fatimid Empire, are known as the Bohras, who
live mainly in India and Yemen. Since their line of Imams went into hiding,
the Dais assumed leadership of the community in the Imam's name. Before the
murder of Imam Nizar by his brother Must'ali, a Dai by the name Hasan bin
Sabbah established an Ismaili stronghold in the mountains of Northern Iran.
When Nizar was killed, Sabbah started a Dawa called, "The New Preaching." A
son of Nizar was smuggled out of Egypt and kept concealed at the fortress of
Alamut; from Alamut, Ismaili missionaries spread the ideas of Ismailism
throughout the Middle East and South Asia. They were very successful in South
Asia, where several Hindu castes converted en mass to the new faith.

In the year 1256 CE, the Ismaili State at Alamut came to end when the
Mongolians destroyed it. Ismaili Imams and their followers went into hiding.
They mostly disappeared from history until Imam Aga Khan I fled Iran in 1841
and took charge of his Khoja Ismaili followers in South Asia. In Iran, the
group took on the appearance of a Sufi Order, whereas in South Asia, they
appeared as Hindus. This concealment, called "taqqiya," is practiced by all
Shia sects for self-defense. From the time Imam Aga Khan I entered India, the
Ismailis have gradually lifted taqqiya and practiced their faith openly as a
group.

Ismailis today continue to practice their beliefs in secrecy for fear of
persecution. The faith, however, is becoming more recognized by outsiders
and no longer a secret. They meet daily in Jamatkhanas for prayer and
community activities. Only Ismaili Muslims who have pledged allegiance to the
Imam are allowed in the Jamatkhanas, since, after all, it is the house of the
Imam. While the religious rites are performed privately in Jamatkhanas,
their doctrines are not hidden from public view. The teachings and practices
of the Ismailis are readily available in books and on the Internet. The group
is open to converts, though they do not seem to actively recruit new members.

The Ismailis follow the Five Pillars of Islam by obeying the Farmans
(official teachings) of the Imam of the Time. Their interpretation of Islamic
doctrines and practice can change according to the time and place in which
they live; this change can only be brought about by the Imam of the Time.

Ismailis learn from their Imam how to live ethically and find the true way to
achieve union with "Divine Reality." The first step taken by an Ismaili to
begin this journey is to recite the Shahada: "There is no God but Allah,
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and Ali, the commander of the faithful,
is from Allah." Every Ismaili, or a convert to the faith, must pledge
allegiance to the Imam of the Time and follow his Farmans. This is basically
how Ismailis receive and follow Allah's teachings.

Ismailis perform Du'a (prayer) three times a day in Jamatkhanas or at home.
This is derived from the later Shia practice of combining the five regular
prayers into three prayer sessions. The Koran itself is silent on the actual
number of prayers one must perform. It only mandates regular prayer.

Ismailis pay Zakat (alms levied) to the Imam of the Time, which is collected
monthly in the Jamatkhanas. It is set at 12½ % of one's income, but
individual Ismailis may pledge to pay more. This tithe is called the Dasond.
A portion of this money is used to finance local Jamatkhanas, with the rest
being sent to the Imam. The current Imam has used these funds in various Aga
Khan Foundation projects throughout the Third World, often in close
association with the United Nations (many of the Imam's close family work in
various U.N. developmental projects).

Ismailis practice ritual fasting according to the religious customs of the
regions in which they live. Some follow the typical Islamic fast of Ramadan
as a form of taqqiya in countries ruled by Islamic governments, while others
living in free societies do not. Many Ismailis fast on days of the year known
as Shakravari Beej, which occurs when Fridays coincide with the appearance of
a New Moon. This is a traditional fast practiced by Ismailis of South Asian
origin. During this fast they repent of their sins and ask for Allah's
forgiveness through their Imam.

Ismailis perform their hajj (pilgrimage) by seeking a Deedar (glimpse) of the
Imam of the Time. Since the Noor (Light of the Imam) is present in every
Jamatkhana, going to Jamatkhana each day is equal to performing hajj. In the
Prophet's time, to go on hajj was to be with the Prophet. Therefore, to be
in his successor's (the Imam) presence is the modern hajj. Also, Imam Aga
Khan IV has been the most accessible of all Imams; he regularly visits his
followers all over the world. This can be seen as an interesting reversal of
the pilgrimage.

The ultimate goal of Ismailis is to achieve union with Divine Reality. This
part is the deepest secret of Ismailism and must be taught in person. It is
pure gnosis, a gift from Allah given to those who prepare to receive the
Light of Qiyamat. So keep in mind, the Sufi saying: "To those who are ready
the teacher appears."

(c) 1998 by Jim Davis

22

wowyi,

Thank you for the information. I did not have much knowledge about Ismaili faith before. Very informative.

Are you a an Ismaili yourself (I did not want to make the presumption that you are)? Just wondering... you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.

From your article, it seems to me that Shia-ism and Ismaili-ism are similiar but not same. How do Ismilis view Shias and vice versa? Is there an element of friction among them? Also, from which other sect Ismailis receive most resistence or opposition?

I personally like to see members from different faiths/beliefs/religions/sects etc participating in this forum as it is essential for diversity and learning. Please continue to participate as often as you feel is convenient for you.

23

Roman, I most certainly am a Ismaili! Thnx for the kind words!

To answer your questions:

SIMILARITY WITH SHIA-ISM:
In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his own daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat (Alayha-s-salam).

In the holy Quran the family of the Prophet (S.A.S.) has been declared pure, and Prophet Muhammad at the historical incident known as the Mubahila, he identified these to be Hazrat Ali, Bibi Fatima and their children Hazrat Hassan and Hazrat Hussein - the Panj Tan Paak.

DIFFERENCES WITH SHIA-ISM:
Ismailis split off from the Shias over the succession of the 6th Imam Jafar es-Sadiq, it was this split that gave rise to the Ismaili sect. They followed the Imams from Imam Jafar's son Ismail, while the Shia Isna Ashari(majority Shia)followed his other son, Musa al-Kazim.

The main difference between Shia Isna Ashari and Ismailis is that Ismailis have a living Imam (the 49th Imam Shah Karim Aga Khan)descended from the family of Panjtan Pak or Hajrat Ali and Bibi Fatima (pbut&tf)while the Shias Imam is in deep occultation or in hiding to appear one day and lead Islam.

RESISTANCE:
As obvious - sects in Islam are unaccepting and unforgiving of the others and accordingly, Ismailis receive 'resistance' from all sides and as such, tend to keep low profile.

24

Thanks wowyi!

Would you kindly elaborate on what made the followers split over the succession of 6th Imam? Why did Shia choose Musa al-Kazim and Ismaili chose Ismail?

Thanks again.

25

Roman, you asked: Would you kindly elaborate on what made the followers split over the succession of 6th Imam? Why did Shia choose Musa al-Kazim and Ismaili chose Ismail?

DISCLAIMER: The following is the position of the Ismailis re: succession of Imamate after Imam Jafer al-Sadiq and is not meant to offend others with differing position.

Imam Jafar al-Sadik was the first Imam who introduced philosophy into Islamic thinking, the outcome of which was a great movement in the Islamic World. This new movement which added a great deal to Islamic thought was based mainly on the allegorical interpretation of the Glorious Koran. This is not surprising if we remember that Imam Jafar was himself the most learned man at that time. He was called the (father of alchemy) and the founders of the main Sunni schools of interpretation were among his students.

Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, in order to avoid the Abbasides pressures and their plans to get rid of him, laid the foundation of the secret Dawa. He announced the death of his eldest son and successor, Imam Ismail. In fact, Imam Ismail went into concealment and worked secretly to avoid the Abbasides. This act of Imam Jafar was MISUNDERSTOOD by some of his followers who believed that Imam Ismail had died and hence his brother Musa al-Kazem, was the true Imam. The rest of Imam Jafars followers, however, understood and accepted their Imam`s plan, and hence accepted the Imamate of his son and true successor, Imam Ismail. This is why we are known as Ismailis after Imam Ismail.

The followers of Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq or all the Shias agree that Imam Jafar had appointed his eldest son, Ismail as his successor to the position of Imamate, But the Isna Ashris claim that Imam Ja'far, later on (withdrew) this appointment from Ismail and appointed his second son, Musa al-Kazem, to that position.

The Ismailis, on the other hand, said that this is not possible. Because, first of all, the Imam is infallible and hence he acts by a divine will. Furthermore, the transfer of Imamate proceeds from father to son, NOT from brother to brother, Hence, if Imam Ismail had died during his father's lifetime, the Imamate would have been transferred to his son Imam Muhammad Iben Ismail as it actually did after Imam Ismail passed away.

Ismailis, follow Muhammad Iben Ismail, the son of Imam Ismail and his descendants up to the present day. Imam Shah Karim Aga Khan is the Imam-e-Zama’an of the Ismailis.

26

Thanks again wowyi for the info, please continue to participate in the forum as you see fit for yourself. :)

27

Agha Khan's geneology is not even close to anyone he or Ismailis claim to be. It is the biggest hoax.

Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

[This message has been edited by Ghazi (edited April 05, 2000).]

28

Wowyi - thnx for the info on your faith.

I'll have you know that I admire Ismailis for their progressive attitude re:Islam.

I have never seen womenfolk as happy as the Ismaili females are after their return from the Jamatkhana!

I have discussed this w/others and they tell me in Ismaili prayer house women sit on one side and the men on the other. The prayers can be lead by male or female, boy or girl. That's very good! Very good, indeed!!

29

The prayers can be lead by male or female, boy or girl.

Oh, I didn't know that...Definitely commendable.

wowyi, can you please briefly describe some of the such unique and revolutionary customs that Ismailis follow?

30

[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:
**>> The prayers can be lead by male or female, boy or girl.

Oh, I didn't know that...Definitely commendable.

wowyi, can you please briefly describe some of the such unique and revolutionary customs that Ismailis follow?**
[/quote]

Dear Roman:

Please read BB's posts on this thread about it.

Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

31

wowyi,
So the Ismaelis don't believe in the coming of Imam Mehdi?

32

[quote]
Originally posted by wowyi:
**FYI - If one needs to know about Ismaili faith or any other faith for that matter, do yourself a favour and make sure the source is NOT from some "anti websites".

You are welcome to Bubble Buster's posts from an anti-Ismaili website splashed herein or, read and understand from an objective source provided below.

The Ismailis: A Look at a Modern Esoteric Islamic Sect.

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim sect, or Ismailis for short, is one of the
largest esoteric sects in Islam. Its members total about 15 million people
who live in India, Pakistan, Central Asia, China, East Africa, Europe, and
North America. They are united by their common allegiance to their spiritual
leader, Imam Karim Aga Khan IV, who is a direct descendant of Imam Ali,
Prophet Mohammed's son-in-law and successor, appointed to lead the Islamic
community.

Most people view Islam as sort of monolithic religion, but in actuality it is
divided into numerous sects. The basic division is the Shia/Sunni split over
who should have succeeded the Prophet after his death. Before his death, the
Prophet appointed Ali as his successor during his last hajj (pilgrimage to
Mecca) in the year 632 CE. However, Ali was rejected by a group of the
Prophet's close followers, known as the Companions, who elected Abu Bakr as
their Khalif (successor of the Prophet). Ali was eventually elected as the
fourth Khalif, but was always considered the leader (Imam) of the Shia (party
of Ali). His assassination and the death of his grandson Hussein split the
Islamic community permanently into two factions: the Shia and the Sunni.

The Imam of the Time is always a descendant of Imam Ali, and has the sole
authority to interpret the Koran according to the time and place. Ismailis
hold that Allah's Noor (the Light) is Eternal; they believe this same Noor
resides in the current Imam of the Time. As an Ismaili friend once said,
"Allah did not stop talking to humankind 1400 hundred years ago; he never has
stopped guiding us." They see the Imam as a reflection of the Divine Reality
in this world.

The Shia followed Imam Ali and each succeeding Imam thereafter, who is
appointed (nass) by the Imam from amongst his male offspring (usually the
eldest son, but not always). Shia Muslims have occasionally faced internal
problems regarding the succession of an Imam. As a result of disagreements,
the community split and a new sect came into existence. Such a split
occurred over the succession of the 6th Imam, Jafar es-Sadiq. It was this
split that gave rise to the Ismaili sect. They followed the Imams from Imam
Jafar's son Ismail, while the majority of the Shia followed his other son,
Musa al-Kazim. Musa's followers are known as Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers);
they are the Shia who today politically control Iran.

Since the split from the Ithna Asharis, the Ismaili movement went on to
spread throughout the Islamic world as a social revolutionary movement.
Ismaili Dais (religious teachers), appointed by the Imam, would form teaching
cells in local communities and conduct missionary work (Dawa); their mission
was to lead others to recognize and give allegiance to the Imam of the Time.

By the 9th century, these groups were strong enough to launch a revolt in
North Africa and Eastern Arabia, which resulted in the formation of the
Ismaili led Fatimid Empire in Egypt (lasting until 1171 CE).

During the later days of the Fatimid Empire, the Ismaili movement split into
two factions over the succession to the 19th Imamate. The Must'ali factions,
who maintained control over the Fatimid Empire, are known as the Bohras, who
live mainly in India and Yemen. Since their line of Imams went into hiding,
the Dais assumed leadership of the community in the Imam's name. Before the
murder of Imam Nizar by his brother Must'ali, a Dai by the name Hasan bin
Sabbah established an Ismaili stronghold in the mountains of Northern Iran.
When Nizar was killed, Sabbah started a Dawa called, "The New Preaching." A
son of Nizar was smuggled out of Egypt and kept concealed at the fortress of
Alamut; from Alamut, Ismaili missionaries spread the ideas of Ismailism
throughout the Middle East and South Asia. They were very successful in South
Asia, where several Hindu castes converted en mass to the new faith.

In the year 1256 CE, the Ismaili State at Alamut came to end when the
Mongolians destroyed it. Ismaili Imams and their followers went into hiding.
They mostly disappeared from history until Imam Aga Khan I fled Iran in 1841
and took charge of his Khoja Ismaili followers in South Asia. In Iran, the
group took on the appearance of a Sufi Order, whereas in South Asia, they
appeared as Hindus. This concealment, called "taqqiya," is practiced by all
Shia sects for self-defense. From the time Imam Aga Khan I entered India, the
Ismailis have gradually lifted taqqiya and practiced their faith openly as a
group.

Ismailis today continue to practice their beliefs in secrecy for fear of
persecution. The faith, however, is becoming more recognized by outsiders
and no longer a secret. They meet daily in Jamatkhanas for prayer and
community activities. Only Ismaili Muslims who have pledged allegiance to the
Imam are allowed in the Jamatkhanas, since, after all, it is the house of the
Imam. While the religious rites are performed privately in Jamatkhanas,
their doctrines are not hidden from public view. The teachings and practices
of the Ismailis are readily available in books and on the Internet. The group
is open to converts, though they do not seem to actively recruit new members.

The Ismailis follow the Five Pillars of Islam by obeying the Farmans
(official teachings) of the Imam of the Time. Their interpretation of Islamic
doctrines and practice can change according to the time and place in which
they live; this change can only be brought about by the Imam of the Time.

Ismailis learn from their Imam how to live ethically and find the true way to
achieve union with "Divine Reality." The first step taken by an Ismaili to
begin this journey is to recite the Shahada: "There is no God but Allah,
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and Ali, the commander of the faithful,
is from Allah." Every Ismaili, or a convert to the faith, must pledge
allegiance to the Imam of the Time and follow his Farmans. This is basically
how Ismailis receive and follow Allah's teachings.

Ismailis perform Du'a (prayer) three times a day in Jamatkhanas or at home.
This is derived from the later Shia practice of combining the five regular
prayers into three prayer sessions. The Koran itself is silent on the actual
number of prayers one must perform. It only mandates regular prayer.

Ismailis pay Zakat (alms levied) to the Imam of the Time, which is collected
monthly in the Jamatkhanas. It is set at 12½ % of one's income, but
individual Ismailis may pledge to pay more. This tithe is called the Dasond.
A portion of this money is used to finance local Jamatkhanas, with the rest
being sent to the Imam. The current Imam has used these funds in various Aga
Khan Foundation projects throughout the Third World, often in close
association with the United Nations (many of the Imam's close family work in
various U.N. developmental projects).

Ismailis practice ritual fasting according to the religious customs of the
regions in which they live. Some follow the typical Islamic fast of Ramadan
as a form of taqqiya in countries ruled by Islamic governments, while others
living in free societies do not. Many Ismailis fast on days of the year known
as Shakravari Beej, which occurs when Fridays coincide with the appearance of
a New Moon. This is a traditional fast practiced by Ismailis of South Asian
origin. During this fast they repent of their sins and ask for Allah's
forgiveness through their Imam.

Ismailis perform their hajj (pilgrimage) by seeking a Deedar (glimpse) of the
Imam of the Time. Since the Noor (Light of the Imam) is present in every
Jamatkhana, going to Jamatkhana each day is equal to performing hajj. In the
Prophet's time, to go on hajj was to be with the Prophet. Therefore, to be
in his successor's (the Imam) presence is the modern hajj. Also, Imam Aga
Khan IV has been the most accessible of all Imams; he regularly visits his
followers all over the world. This can be seen as an interesting reversal of
the pilgrimage.

The ultimate goal of Ismailis is to achieve union with Divine Reality. This
part is the deepest secret of Ismailism and must be taught in person. It is
pure gnosis, a gift from Allah given to those who prepare to receive the
Light of Qiyamat. So keep in mind, the Sufi saying: "To those who are ready
the teacher appears."

(c) 1998 by Jim Davis**
[/quote]

wowyi:

Below is my response of your very strange way of defending your faith.

***The signature at the bottom of the article above is of JIM DAVIS. He is a Buddhist and not an Ismaili who has never ever entered in a Jamatkhana of the Ismailis and seen them perform the rituals....

WHY IS A BUDDHIST WRITING ABOUT THE ESOTERIC BELIEFS AND DEFENDING THEM?

If I challenge Jim Davis and prove him wrong than you Ismaili can turn around and say he is not from amongst us...

IF Ismailis have the TRUTH, why is JIM himself not an Ismaili???
He is not even a Muslim so what does he know of the Noble Quran and of the True Islaam???**

P.S. FACT REMAINS THAT THE TRUTH I POSTED ABOVE IN MY MULTIPLE POSTS, YOU HAVE NOT DENY IT NOR REFUTED IT. BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THE FACTS. IN RESPONSE TO MY FORENSIC AND EMPIRICAL RESULTS YOU POSTED THIS JIM DAVIS' CRAP, WHICH DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING. CRARE TO DEBATE WITH ME AND REFUTE MY EARLIER POSTS? :) :) :)* By the way it was me who posted that any gender and age can lead the Ismaili prayers (which Roman inquired) that you did not stated that.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 06, 2000).]

33

BB:

I couldn't have said any better myself. You nailed it right in the heart.

Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

[This message has been edited by Ghazi (edited April 06, 2000).]

34

I couldn't have said any better myself. You nailed it right in the heart.

Dear Ghazi, trust me, you could have - please don't underestimate your capabilities next time.

35

Folks - I am sorry for not responding to your querries, I fully intend to respond as soon as I can extricate myself.....

Later!!

36

Well I must say u guys and girls have done excellent work. I mean there was no insults or bad remarks( very few) and no breaking of anybody's heart or feelings. And this is very important; respecting each other's feelings and beliefs. It was a healthy discussion.

However, I would like to make it very clear, that Ismailis and the main stream shias are worlds apart, in matters of belief and practice. We believe that the Ismailis are very badly misled and their teachings are not only unislamic but they can also not prove them to be Islamic. The only reason Ismailis are popular and liked by people is their ultra modernistic approach to Islam which is just a pulling tactic and their beliefs could easily be proved wrong. Moreover, I respect Ismailis because of their great emphasis on education and Agha Khan's various reform projects through out the world for his believers. But with all due respect, all their imams from Ismail to the present are misleadrs(not using a harsh word). Wowyi if u like we can debate this and I would certainly like to.

:) :)

"One of the greatest victories u can gain over somene is to beat him at politeness."

"For him who has perception, a mere sign is enough. For him who does not heed a thousand explanations are not enough."

37

Looks like I've been missing out on some fun here; still have the week-end to look forward to. First, let me get caught up with answering some of questions/statement made herein.

1:

BB states:
"The signature at the bottom of the article above is of JIM DAVIS. He is a Buddhist and not an Ismaili... "

Buble - Jim Davis is an authority on Ismaili faith and knows every aspect of the esoteric Ismaili faith.

BB states:
"If I challenge Jim Davis and prove him wrong than you Ismaili can turn around and say he is not from amongst us..."

Bubble - I have read some of your posts and your responses which are nothing but curses & condemnations. I do not know where you get off on this 'bakwas'/nonsense that you can beat anyone in a debate.

BB states: "FACT REMAINS THAT THE TRUTH I POSTED ABOVE IN MY MULTIPLE POSTS, YOU HAVE NOT DENY IT NOR REFUTED IT. BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THE FACTS."

Bubble - all your posts are self-serving and enormously ignorant.

I have clearly indicated in my previous posts that readers are welcome to read what you have splashed from anti-Ismaili website or read what I have posted. Do you really think you have any credibility on this forum. More important - who gives a S**t what you or anybody else from your clan thinks!

2:

Abdul Malik states:
"I have never seen womenfolk as happy as the Ismaili females are after their return from the Jamatkhana!"

Abdulmalik - Thank you for the kind words. It is true, women play a very significant part in Ismaili faith. They are leaders and participate equally in truest sense of the word, Masha'allah!

3:

Roman states:
"The prayers can be lead by male or female, boy or girl.
Oh, I didn't know that...Definitely commendable.
wowyi, can you please briefly describe some of the such unique and revolutionary customs that Ismailis follow?"

Roman - Ismaili faith do not have mullahs or pesh imam, instead we have two males and two females appointed on an annual basis, as Imam's representative, to oversee religious services. The mukhi, as they are called, calls upon a male or female, boy or girl to lead the Ismaili sala’at or Du’a.

It is important to note that Ismailis ritual salat or Du'a is different than other muslims. First, it is performed sitting down with females on one side and males on the other. Second, though it includes ayats & suras from the Quran, it also includes allegiance, & devotion to the Imam of the time.Also, a young girl or boy leading the prayer usually knows the meaning of the Du'a - Ismaili sala'at.

In addition to the ritual Ismaili sala'at or Du'a there are devotional hymns, again recited by male or female, in praise of Allah & Imam. The jama'at/congregation joins in the chorus; spiritually, it is very uplifting and gratifying.

Also, Ismailis enphasize batini aspects rather than just zaheri. This includes Meditation or 'Bandagi' at 4 - 5 AM in the morning before dawn prayers.

Ismailis are the only Islamic sect that I am aware of that interprets the Quran & Sunnah according to changing times. The Imam, descendend from the family of Panjtan Pak or Hajrat Ali and Bibi Fatima (as), has the sole authority on interpretation of Quran & Sunnah. Accordingly, the practice of the 5 Pillars are again very different from the other muslims. Pls refer to my post of April 4, titled: The Ismailis: A Look at a Modern Esoteric Islamic Sect.

Another area of difference is in Converting to the Ismaili faith. A person wanting to convert to Ismailism has to demonstrate knowledge & proficiency in the Ismaili faith before he/she is admitted.

4:

2Pak states:
“wowyi,
So the Ismaelis don't believe in the coming of Imam Mehdi?”

2Pak – Ismailis split from the Shias in a dispute over succession to Imam Jafer al-Sadiq. Ismailis chose Imam Ismail and Shia Isna Ashari went with his younger brother Musa Al-Kazim; pls refer to my post dated April 4, 11:05 PM. As such, our line of Imam continued intact from Imam Ismail after that ‘split’ and continues to-date with Imam Shah Karim Aga Khan being the present 49 Imam.

$5:
Mohammad Ali states:
“I would like to make it very clear, that Ismailis and the main stream shias are worlds apart, in matters of belief and practice. We believe that the Ismailis are very badly misled and their teachings are not only unislamic but they can also not prove them to be Islamic.”

Mohammad Ali – I agree Ismailis and Shia Isna Ashari are different in belief & practice.

Mohammad Ali when you say “the Ismailis are very badly misled and their teachings are not only unislamic but they can also not prove them to be Islamic.” – You are calling us ‘KAFIR” misled by our Imam-e-Zama’an!

For a Shia Isna Ashari. which is what you are, I consider that statement rather arrogant & inflamatory considering that Sunnis routinely reject Shias as “kafirs”. I remember those nasty debates that we had here in this forum, though I do not remember your participation in those debates. I shall ignore your comments as nothing more than an ego trip and wish you good luck in your endeavours.

Re: Your offer of debate with me - thank you, but I suggest you debate with the Sunnis and prove to them that your sect is Islamic. I or Ismailis do not waste our time debating with every Tom, Dick and Harry. We will debate when & if it has significance.

38

Wowyi:

Being cranky you responded to me that:

Wowyi: “Jim Davis is an authority on Ismaili faith and knows every aspect of the esoteric Ismaili faith. “

*BB: That may be the case according to you, but since when a non-believers can be an authority on something he/she does not belong? Why you can’t refute me from your own Ismaili sources or scholar? You know why? Because my reference are from the AUTHORITY on Ismaili cult. You simply can’t refute me except to disapprove me without proof. *

Wowyi:” I have read some of your posts and your responses which are nothing but curses & condemnations. I do not know where you get off on this 'bakwas'/nonsense that you can beat anyone in a debate.”

** BB: Where is your proof of curses? I have beaten every one on debate including you. You see how irrational you are acting. Your rhetoric lacks the reason and logic. **

Wowyi: “all your posts are self-serving and enormously ignorant. “

BB: Again, where is your proof boy? What I got to gain, you said self-serving?

Wowyi: “I have clearly indicated in my previous posts that readers are welcome to read what you have splashed from anti-Ismaili website or read what I have posted. Do you really think you have any credibility on this forum. More important - who gives a S**t what you or anybody else from your clan thinks! “

BB: You don’t have to indicate that. A reader can draw his/her own conclusions. Can you proof your allegation that I got the info from anti-Ismaili web site? Wowyi boy, in a debate one must put forth his/her sources or references. What is required from you is the source/reference, can you do that? Don’t concern yourself with my credibility. Because none of the ignorant on GupShup can judge me. Did you see me asking you or anyone else to give a s*it? I don’t think so. Wowyi boy, truth hurts. I know my facts have penetrated under you skin. Your rhetoric and anger is the testament of that. By the way you did not responded to my post completely. You dodged many points I raised.
SOON I'LL BE POSTING SOME MORE FACTS.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 07, 2000).]

39

Okk is it true that...agha khani people...on Jaamat-khani nightt turn off all the lights and JUST GET DOWN WITH bussiness any women? Like they turn off the lights in a room and just have sex with any women you get hold of and doesnt matter if its ur mom or sister helloo is that HUMANE thing true? I heard it from MANY people!

Jaawan

Till next time**Keep_It_Simple_Stupid**©

40

Most useful information. I have had an Ismaili friend in Karachi, but we never ever discussed about Ismali faith. After reading up a little here (as I am sure there is a lot more to know) about this faith by Wowyi, it comes across as a very progressive sect of Islam. I am very impressed with Agha Khan’s foundation and the developmental project it is leading worldwide. More power to Agha Khan for doing good for the Humanity.

Thanks Wowyi for sharing about your faith.