age 40

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
003.046 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. ..."
**
[/quote]

Bhai sahib, if Hazrat Isa (as) was a few months old speaking child, Allah would have said "He shall speak to the people in infancy and maturity ..." but that's not mentioned. And so I stand by my belief. Ok? If not, then sue me!

Ali,

I am looking forward to the Bible quote. As I looked for a few months back & couldn't find it. And my search revealed the above.

Zawiya,

Thank you for the shair, actually I kinda like it! Here is one for you:

HoorooN ki talab or may-o-saqi say hay nafrat?
Zahid, teray irfan say kuch bhool hui hay!
Saghar Sadiqui]

AishaA,

Sorry for all the distraction. I looked into the verse and asked around. But I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer.

Some think the age 40 is related to AnHazoor (saw) age of prophethood. Others explain it to be a logical time frame of maturity.

I believe there must be more to it than this.

Ahmadjee, I don't know if you accept Hadiths, but I found this:

[quote]
The Prophet said, "None spoke in cradle but three: (The first was) Jesus, (the second was), there a man from Bani Israel called Juraij. Narrated Abu Huraira.
[/quote]

Sorry I failed to proof that it is mentioned in the Bible.


“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited October 21, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
** Sorry I failed to proof that it is mentioned in the Bible. **
[/quote]

The first mention in the Bible where Jesus talks is as a twelve year old in the temple.

There is a reference in The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ in chapter 1 verse 1 and 2:

"The following account we found in the book of Joseph the high-priest, called by some Caiaphas. He relates, that Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle..."

Above fable try and glorify Mary, mother of Jesus. It use verbatim from the four Gospels in the Bible but change various scenes and items to completely contradict the Gospels. It is not accepted by Christian scholars as anything other than fictitious stories.

I don't understand the relevance or importance of a Jesus talking as a baby.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited October 21, 2001).]

hmmm...

can we all agree that Prophet Jesus started talking/preaching before the age of 40?

Coming back to the original question should the 40 here be taken in the literal sense?

There is also a mention of thirty months (2 ½ years). "The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months"

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
I don't understand the relevance or importance of a Jesus talking as a baby.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Hi Old Man ,

If you did not understand the relevance of Jesus talking in the cradle (or even as a baby ) . It would mean you have not understood the “LAW” as ordained and as practiced by the Jews. (at that time frame)

Read thsi...was written by me ages ago.

His Birth: Who's birth are we talking about ?, let's get his name right first, in Greek texts, he is called " Iesus", in Arabic Texts, he is called "Esa" in the 20th century in English we call him "Jesus". Although we are very fond of having nick names in our current generation. Adding or Changing someone’s given name (degrading) is condemned in the scriptures, as such if we use any other name than the given name of a person, it would be an error on our part. It is also believed that in Hebrew he would be called "Joshua", here you have to understand the letter "J" does not exist in the Hebrew language as such this would be another error. I prefer to use the Arabic rendering (Esa) as Arabic is closer to Aramaic, than Greek.

In the current Bible you can read about his birth as written:

By the author of the Matthew's Gospel in the following, chapter 1: verses 18 to 24.

By the author of the Luke’s Gospel in the following, chapter 1: verses 26 to 35.

The authors of Mark and John Gospels, have no record of his birth.

Everyone in our current generation had heard about the miraculous birth of Christ being his mother was a virgin, which is also confirmed in the scriptures. ** Before we go into details, we need to consider, how could a women, prove, she was a virgin, which would be accepted by the public? **

Would you accept if a women, be she a daughter or a sister, came and told you , that she is pregnant / getting pregnant / will become pregnant, but no one ever touched her or she had no relations with anyone. This might be too difficult to believe, and generally today, no one will be bothered if a women gets pregnant out of wedlock, because ** in our current generation, adultery is the " in thing " and propagated by the mass media, actors and actress. ** Would you honestly believe her ? , honestly speaking, we won't and we believe , most people will also agree with us.

But , at the time of Christ, situations were not like today, ** the Law was applicable and adultery was a serious crime, as such anyone being pregnant out of wedlock, would be condemned/stoned to death. **

Now, Mary (peace be upon her) was indeed pure and she did get pregnant, (out of wedlock) as a virgin, ** but how can she escape and how could she claim/prove, she was a virgin, even, to her own family. ** If we accepted the passage written in Matthews Gospel, that Joseph had married her, than automatically the whole world would have to call the new Child (son of Joseph) and you cannot consider her a virgin no more, which is not the case.

** Hold your horses, do not get any wrong ideas yet, let us now look at what the Qur'an says: **

Chapter 19:16, She (Mary) withdrew to a place in the east.

Ibrahim says: meaning she hid herself (ran away) from all her relations and associates. (normal human being actions, would be to hide it)

Chapter 19:17 to 20, tells us she allowed no (one) man to see her and remained chaste.

Chapter 19:20, Appoint him as a sign unto men

Ibrahim says: (reveals the purpose as to why Esa, was created)

Chapter 19:22, She conceived him (Esa)

Chapter 19:23 to 26, reveals how, she had suffered, alone and fed only with dates and water, within the place she had enclosed herself.

Ibrahim says: (this verses further, reveals the time of Christ birth, i.e. in summer and not in winter and also reveals the place was not a manger)

Chapter 19:27 reveals, she returned to her family, after she had given birth to Esa.

Chapter 19:28, reveals, immediate people's reactions, of slander, accusations and condemnations

Ibrahim says: ( a sure thing at that time frame)

Chapter 19: 29, reveals how she saved herself from the onslaught of the public.

Chapter 19: 30 reveals the First miracle of Christ,

Ibrahim says: ** ( He talked and answered all questions put forward by the public and proclaimed to the whole community the purpose of his birth and thus saving his mother from the slander and sure death) **

So, as you can see, ** Mary was established as a virgin, because Christ was able to talk as a baby, if not we will have lost, Mary and her son Esa to the law of the land. **

So if the magi (Zoroastrian priests) had heard about him and came to pay tribute and seek advice from Christ, it can be clearly understood, they came ( from far and wide) ** because here was a baby, who had all the answers and had started preaching from birth. **

Indeed Esa son of Mary, had been created as a sign for all of mankind, who had wanted a sign from the CREATOR and Esa indeed was sent to confirm the truth of HIS existence.

[quote]
Originally posted by aishaA:
Coming back to the original question should the 40 here be taken in the literal sense?

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Man reaches “his mature state of thinking and firm resolve” at the age of 40. It may be understood that if some one has iman in his/her heart when he/she has reached forty, he/she is more likely to have it on the day of the death but if he/she had not the capacity to discern the presence of his/her Creator by the time he/she reaches forty . it is likely he/she may remain an unbeliever or wondering and wandering for the rest of his/her life.

** wisdom is an essence , it is not an idea, not even a thought **

Old Man says: Hi Ibrahim, bhai! (Hope I got the spelling correct

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)

**Ibrahim says: ( He talked and answered all questions put forward by the public and proclaimed to the whole community the purpose of his birth and thus saving his mother from the slander and sure death)
So, as you can see, Mary was established as a virgin, because Christ was able to talk as a baby, if not we will have lost, Mary and her son Esa to the law of the land. **

Ibrahim, if the Quran is correct as to how Mary gave birth all alone, the reason for a talking baby Jesus makes sense as per your reasoning. It is though completely different as the story written in the Bible which, if that is correct, does not require a talking baby Jesus.

Why according to you was it neccessary for a virgin to conceive and have a baby?

How and by whom did Mary get pregnant according to your views? (If this question digress too far from the line of discussion in this thread, please feel free to answer me in another thread).

Ibrahim says: Man reaches “his mature state of thinking and firm resolve” at the age of 40.

Any reason why you feel that Man reach his maturety at 40 years? Jesus started his “public” life at the age of 30 which was considered by the Jews to be the age when one may enter the service in the temple.

Ibrahim says: It may be understood that if some one has iman in his/her heart when he/she has reached forty, he/she is more likely to have it on the day of the death but if he/she had not the capacity to discern the presence of his/her Creator by the time he/she reaches forty . it is likely he/she may remain an unbeliever or wondering and wandering for the rest of his/her life.

I agree with you.

Final question: Are you fully mature yet? ie. >40

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Ibrahim says: Old man, I think you are too young for this sort of discussions

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You apparently seem to lack the basic understanding of Christian doctrines. Have you heard of “Virgin Mary” sure you do, but even after becoming old you have not realized why the “Virgin” title is attached to her name only ….do I really need to quote all those verses in the Bible or are you capable enough to read them yourself?

Oh well…….

Read!

By the author of the Matthew’s Gospel in the following, chapter 1: verses 18 to 24.

  1. “The ** virgin ** will be with child and will give birth to a son, and** they will call him Immanuel” ** --which means, “God with us.”

By the author of the Luke’s Gospel in the following, chapter 1: verses 26 to 35.
26. In the sixth month, ** God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth,** a town in Galilee,

  1. ** to a virgin pledged to be married ** to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

  2. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

  3. Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

  4. But ** the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. **

  5. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and ** you are to give him the name Jesus. **

  6. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord ** God will give him the throne of his father David, **

  7. and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

  8. “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, ** “since I am a virgin?” **

  9. The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

  10. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.

  11. For nothing is impossible with God."

  12. “I am the Lord’s servant,” ** Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her. **

Ibrahim says; hence it is quite evident form your statements you do not even know how Mary conceived. So do the research, old man…If God willed and you are sincere in the seeking, it could finally open the door to truth for you.

Ibrahim says; I do not go about conveying things based on conjectures…so my accounts are based on scriptures.

** The prophecy and sign for man ** was that God will create a miraculous child to be born of a pious “virgin” woman . This creation will remain a sign for all times and all generations . In other words the miraculous child was created just like the first creation Adam was created being without a father. At the same time if any one considered the creation of Christ a miracle ( being without a father) than Adam is even a greater miracle in the sense that he had neither a father nor a mother.
** The purpose old man is , Christ is a sign of God’s existence for mankind who have lost all hope of the existence of God. ** He had to be born of a woman or else we human beings would reject him as an alien and yet he had to be extraordinary, ** hence he had no father. ** and he was foretold in the earlier scripture.

Ibrahim says: Read!

Luke 1: 34. “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, ** “since I am a virgin?” **

  1. The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, ** and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. ** So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Qur’an

3: 47 She said: “O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” ** He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it `Be’ and it is! **

48 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel

Ibrahim says; Hope it is clear that what the Gospel conveys and what the Qur’an conveys on this matter are the same in meaning.

Ibrahim says; Old man, the creation of Prophet Eesa (pbuh) (old man at least get his name correct, it amounts to arrogance and ignorance to call a person by names other then his given name) was unique and he remains a sign for mankind, all Muslims believe in Christ and respect him just like any other Prophet. Christ started his life the day he was born, His ministry has not ended from that day ( according to the Bible he is still a priest in heaven) and his return to this planet is awaited by all Muslims but just so that you don’t get carried away.

Read!

49 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel

meaning, he was created and guided as a permanent sign for mankind.

Ibrahim says; I used to be mature when I was 9 (used to think and contemplate all the time) now I am way past 40 and could be much older then you in thought. But don’t expect me to advertise my youth.

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**Old man wrote: Ibrahim, if the Quran is correct as to how Mary gave birth all alone, the reason for a talking baby Jesus makes sense as per your reasoning. It is though completely different as the story written in the Bible which, if that is correct, does not require a talking baby Jesus.
Ibrahim says: You apparently seem to lack the basic understanding of Christian doctrines. Have you heard of “Virgin Mary” sure you do, but even after becoming old you have not realized why the “Virgin” title is attached to her name only ….do I really need to quote all those verses in the Bible or are you capable enough to read them yourself? **

Once Mary gave birth she also gave birth to various other children and is presently not a virgin anymore and can’t be called “Virgin” Mary but only “Mary the mother of Jesus”. Never in the Bible is she called “Virgin” Mary as a title. She is called virgin Mary referring to her state when bearing the baby Jesus. Other than being the instrument by which Jesus came into the world, she was an ordinary woman as evidenced by the treatment Jesus accorded her in the Gospel of John Chapter 19v26-28 When Jesus saw his mother there and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” , and never any further contact with her as can be seen.

Ibrahim says; hence it is quite evident form your statements you do not even know how Mary conceived.

I have my own viewpoint but asked for yours.

Ibrahim says: I do not go about conveying things based on conjectures…so my accounts are based on scriptures.

Good, makes two of us…

Ibrahim says; Old man, the creation of Prophet Eesa (pbuh) (old man at least get his name correct, it amounts to arrogance and ignorance to call a person by names other then his given name) was unique and he remains a sign for mankind, all Muslims believe in Christ and respect him just like any other Prophet.

Sorry Ibrahim but I know him as Jesus (Iesoús in Greek). His parents, being Jewish, might have called him Yehôwshûwa (Hebrew). Every name has a meaning which is relevant to the person carrying the name and when talking in a different language, the name might change to accommodate the meaning, as my name is different in English as in my mother tongue. By your own statement calling him “Eesa” which is not the name his parents called him is as wrong as calling him Jesus! Anyway, he had more than one “name” by which he was referred to, eg. “Christ”, “Messiah”, Emmanuel", “Nazarene”, and various “titles” referring to some part of his mission/life/character. If it cause you unease though, I’ll in future discussions with you refer to him as “Christ”, if it is acceptable to you as “Eesa” is totally foreign to me.

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**

Ibrahim says; I used to be mature when I was 9 (used to think and contemplate all the time) now I am way past 40 and could be much older then you in thought. But don’t expect me to advertise my youth.

Well, just imagine us two oldies sitting in the shade sipping some tea and discussing religious matters!

BTW. My name was given to me by a young upstart poster on these forums when we had some discussions on another forum and he realized I’m older than his father. I actually treasures the name. In reality I now know that I know less than what I “knew” in my teens although I still feel as young.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited October 25, 2001).]

Ibrahim says; My friend, you are making assertions based on possibilities and not on what had been conveyed in the gospel. So far as the Gospel goes, the information provided in it concerning such matters are vague.

First of all, the reason for Mary being known as “virgin Mary” is simply because she gave birth whilst being a virgin. Today most catholic’s pray to her as virgin Mary or “mother of god”

Now in Christianity, there can well be some/well over 30,000 denominations ( sects) at this time frame , so I will not be able argue or conclude that your notion is true or untrue BUT when it comes to why the word “Virgin” is being stressed in the Torah as well as the Gospels, it is on account of the conception of a child in a woman who had no relationship with any man.
Thus you seem to be missing this point and going on to claim she got married later on and hence no more a virgin…that should be obvious

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Ibrahim says; I did not imply that either, what I was trying to convey is that she is known in Christianity as “Virgin Mary” on account of the fact that she conceived as a virgin .

I already quoted the verses in the Gospel that alludes to the fact that she was a virgin when the angel visited her and also a virgin when she conceived…are you disputing this?

Ibrahim says; exactly! hence this event became a sign ( a miracle ) for others to wonder about and such a miracle can only be proven as true and acceptable in that community , if and when, it can be verified as true. ** Thus in order for any women to prove such a thing at that time frame ( failing which, she will be branded as an adulteress and stoned to death) ** the baby had to talk and stand as witness for her mother , any other witness cannot be accepted at that time frame which was indeed another miracle, failing which, no one will be foolish enough to believe any person making such claims, not even the gospel writers.

The very reason why people came and paid tribute to the mother and child was on account of the miraculous nature , ** that being a talking baby and this would mean they would have traveled widely too in a mission to educate the rest of mankind ** ( the reason for the Madonna figures found in many parts of the ancient world and missing info of his childhood) meaning, mother and child statues and gospel records only talking about Christ from the age of 12.

Ibrahim says; She was an ordinary woman just like Christ was an ordinary man ( in the sense that he had eat and sleep) but both found favor with God and both had different assignments from God. hence they became “chosen people” in the sight of mankind and have to be honored as such.
Just so that we understand this clearly the gospels were composed by unknown individuals and they wrote what they had heard or was understood by them at that time frame.

You quoted John 19:26-28, no compare this with

Matt 12:

  1. While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

  2. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

  3. ** He replied to him, “Who is my mother, ** and who are my brothers?”

  4. Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

  5. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Ibrahim says; this is very disrespectful towards a mother who suffered for 9 months and would have NEVER been uttered by someone sent by God to guide mankind.

For that same person was preaching the following………

Matt 15: 4. For God said, Honor your father and mother' and ** Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ **

Ibrahim says; exactly, even in Greek it is pronounced as “Eesous” and the letter “J” with such a sound does not exist in Greek either, thus those that use the letter “j’ and pronounce it as “Jesus” are in error manifest.

Ibrahim says: sorry my friend, this is folly. Given names especially that being given to a messiah does not boil down to “might be” or “could be” or “should be”
The Jewish priests did not accept Prohet Eesa (pbuh) as the messiah hence they rejected and removed anything related to him that was mentioned in their books. Hence the current confusion about his every name and existence by Judaism.

Ibrahim says: Given Names does not change according to country or language. But Names generally had meanings in the past and hence if a person’s names was “lion” in English for instance, than in other languages it can be mistaken and be written as “singa” (Sanskrit & malay) by translators who did not know that it was a person’s name.
But knowingly translating a person’s given name and claiming it is alright would be rather insulting to that person.
But as you can see, this name belongs to a person who was appointed/anointed by God, and hence they can be NO room for translating it according to any’ one’s whims and fancies.

Neither does anyone know what “Eesa” meant at that time or in this time frame.

The very fact that the gospel in one place says it he will be called Emanuel and in another place “jesus” reveals its integrity and credibility has to be doubted.

Ibrahim says; Can you show where and when his parents did not call him Eesa” if that was his given name? On the other hand the letter “j” does not exist in Greek or Hebrew” so your understanding would not be possible since no such letter exists in those languages?

** This is simple to understand , if no letter “J” than nothing in that language can be written by such a letter. Meaning everything that we read in the Bible starting with the letter “j’ is FALSE. **

Ibrahim says: My friend, “messiah” is the Hebrew word for anointed or “Christ” in English . hence that is his title. The word Nazarene is just like calling someone American if he happens to be an American citizen. Emmanuel on the other hand is what he was supposed to be called according to the Isaiah and Matthew but Luke claims he was to be called Jesus…so go figure out who is creating the problem.

Read: If you need to clear your doubts.

Isaiah 7:14. Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: ** The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him * Immanuel. * **

King James
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and ** they shall call his name * Emmanuel *, ** which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luke 1:31. You will be with child and give birth to a son, ** and you are to give him the name * Jesus. * **

Ibrahim says; If you have not noted yet, that is why I just use “Christ” in most of my writings.

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[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited October 25, 2001).]