Affirmation of the Attribute of Face for Allaah(from QURAN and SUNNAH)

**First of all: Imam Al Bukhary made ta'weel that the meaning to the verse: "Illa wajhuh" to His Dominion and not face. (The word wajh means: face, dominion...) **ibn taymiah opposed Al-Bukhary in this ta'weel and boy where is ibn taymiah from Al-Bukhary in knowledge, he is like a part of a drop of water from the oceans of Knowledge Bukhary has.

It must not be said about Allah: When was He? Or where was He? Or how is He?
Explanation: It is not permissible to say, 'When was Allah?' because it attributes to Him a beginning, (an existence after a state of non-existence), and a lapsing of time on His existence. It is not permissible also to say, 'Where was Allah?' i.e., asking about a place. Nor is it permissible to say, 'How was He?' because it attributes to Him the attributes of the creation.

After he mentioned the prohibition from all that, Ibn ^Asakir, may Allah have mercy on him, established the correct creed, and said:
He existed without a place. He created the universe and willed for the existence of time. He is not bound to time and is not designated with place.

Explanation: When the author said 'He is not designated,' he does not mean that Allah is in all directions, because this is invalid as we have mentioned earlier. Directions are other than Allah. He existed and there was nothing other than Him existing. The meaning is that Allah exists without a place. This is the creed of Ahlus-Sunnah and all the Muslims, their Salaf and Khalaf. Al-Bukhariyy, al-Bayhaqiyy and Ibn al-Jarud related that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam, said: <> Allah existed eternally and there was no place or any other creature. After creating the place, Allah, subhanahu, did not change from what He was. From this hadith and what is similar among the texts, Ahlus-Sunnah took their saying that Allah exists without a place.

Al-Bayhaqiyy, may Allah have mercy on him, related the hadith of the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam: "You are adh-Dhahir (the One Whose existence is obvious by proofs). Hence there is nothing above You, and You are al-Batin (the One Who is clear of the delusions of bodily attributes). Hence there is nothing underneath You." Then he said: "Some of our companions took that hadith as a proof to clear Allah of places. If there is nothing above Him and nothing underneath Him, then He is not in a place."

Ar-Ramliyy and others narrated the saying of ^Aliyy Ibn Abi Talib, may Allah honor him: "Allah existed eternally without a place, and now He is as He was." Az-Zabidiyy narrated in the explanation of al-'Ihya' by the continuous chain to ^Aliyy, Zayn al-^Abidin: "O Allah, the One Who is clear of non-befitting attributes, You are not contained in a place." ^Aliyy, Zayn al-^Abidin was the best of the family members of the Prophet at his time. Moreover, this statement was established by many other Muslim scholars like Abu Hanifah, Ibn Jarir at-Tabariyy, al-Maturidiyy, al-'Ash^ariyy, and others. Moreover, at-Tamimiyy related the consensus of Ahlus-Sunnah that Allah exists without a place. He mentioned it in his book, Al-Farqu Bayn al-Firaq.

After that, no consideration is due to anyone who likens Allah to the creation and objects to the author and other pioneers among the people of knowledge for stating that truthful statement. He who negates that and confirms a place to Allah has likened Allah to the creation and made Him equal to them. Also, he has negated the explicit verses of the Qur'an, the sahih hadith, and the mind. Allah is the Creator of place. Allah is the Manager of time and the One Who runs it. Allah is the Creator of the universe, that is, the Creator of the creatures, the One Who brings things into existence from non-existence. He does not need them and is not attributed with their attributes, as Imam Abu Hanifah, may Allah have mercy on him, mentioned: "The Creator does not resemble His creation." This is why it is not permissible to attribute to Him the occupation of a place or all places, or the designation of time or all times. He is clear of the meanings and attributes of the creatures.
==================================

His Managing one matter does not distract Him from another.

Explanation: Allah, ta^ala, brings things into existence from non-existence by His eternal Will and Power and by His eternal Creating without a need for a limb or using an instrument. Simply by His Will and Power, that are related to the happenings, the things occur at the time and place He willed for them to exist. Nothing delays or stops them. As Allah said in Surat Yasin, 82

Delusions do not apply to Him, and He is not encompassed by the mind. He is not conceivable in the mind. He is not imagined in the self nor pictured in delusions. He is not grasped with delusions or thoughts.

Explanation: This is summarized by the saying of Dhunun al-Misriyy Ibrahim Ibn Tawbah, may Allah have mercy on him as related by al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad: "Whatever you imagine in your mind, Allah is different from it." This is so because whatever you imagine is a creation, and the Creator does not resemble the creation.

*Imam ash-Shafi^iyy said: "Whoever seeks to know his Creator, and concludes that his Creator is something that exists which his mind can imagine, then he is a person who likens Allah to the creation. If he settles on pure non-existence, then he is an atheist. If he concludes that He exists, and admits that his mind cannot conceive Him, then he is practicing tawhid." Since no one knows the Reality of Allah except Allah, the Salaf prohibited thinking about the Self of Allah in an attempt to seek the Reality of Allah. *

Our knowledge of Allah is by knowing what is obligatory to be of His attributes, what is impossible to be of His attributes, and what is permissible to be of His attributes. As related by al-Bayhaqiyy, Ibn ^Abbas said: "Think of the creation of Allah and do not think of the Self of Allah."

He who thinks about the Self of Allah and imagines a picture or has a delusion and believes that this is Allah, is not a Muslim practicing tawhid. There is no difference between him and the idol worshipper. The idol worshipper worships a picture that he sculptured, and this one worships a picture that he imagined. The true believer worships the One to Whom there is none similar. As Imam ar-Rifa^iyy, may Allah have mercy on him, said: "The ultimate knowledge about Allah is to be certain that He exists without a how and without a place." All of that is taken from the saying of Allah, ta^ala, in Surat ash-Shura, 11: which means: which means: [Nothing is like Him and He is attributed with Hearing and Sight.]

Explanation: Allah mentioned the part of clearing Himself of resembling the creation before the part on the attributes of Hearing and Sight so that it would be known that His Hearing and Sight are not like the hearing and sight of others. Allah's hearing is not with an ear or any other instrument and His Sight is not with a pupil or any other instrument, because He, subhanah, is unlike anything.

"nothing is like him and he is ATTRIBUTED with sight and hearing"

?????????So at one hand you deny that he does not have any ATTRIBUTES and at one hand you say he is attributed with sight and hearing?????????

My concern is NOT what allah looks like, my concern is that he has attributes. READ THE TOPIC!!!


*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----


And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished:for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
(Quran, Al-Isra, 17:81)

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited February 10, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Eastern Analog:
**>>

Remember Hazrat Umar RA, when he saw a man performing ablution the wrong way, and despite being ameer-ul-momineen, he did not interject the man. He simply sat next to him, and started performing ablution himself. The man caught on his mistake after watching Hazrat Umar Farooq RA, and corrected himself.
Without interference, without insult, and without embarassment, Hazrat Umar RA got the message through. Thats the key.

Practice the truth, and people will come to you. Preach it, and noone will listen. **
[/quote]

Amazing how you have attributed this noble deed to Umar. This incident relates to the two holy imams, Imam Hasan and Hussain (as) when they saw an old man performing wudu the wrong way. They were young boys at the time and in order not to offend the old man, they went next to him and performed wudu the way that it was divinely intended. The old man, on seeing the holy imams (as), recognized his mistake and corrected his ablution method.

This is the holy personality of the holy apostle (pbuh) and his ahl bait whose level of righteousness cannot be reached by anyone.

Your Umar bin Khattab was the one who was ready to put a pregnant woman to death because she had committed fornication. Had it not been for Imam Ali's (as) intervention, Umar would have committed murder against the unborn child. It is at this time that Umar himself acknowledging his ignorance stated "If it had not been for Ali, Umar would have surely perished".

This Umar, who threw the burning door on the Lady of Light, Fatima Zahra, killing her unborn son, is whom you now praise ?

The reason why we have sects is because the majority of the Ummah strayed away from the holy apostle's (pbuh) order to hold tightly to both the Qur'an and his ahl bait. The holy imams (as), who were the true bearers of knowledge were isolated in preference to the likes of Muwayah, Yazid, the Umayad thieves, and the Abasid kings.

Relaters of ayats and hadiths are many but those who truly understand them are few.

Allah's (swt) blessings be upon his most beloved holy messenger (pbuh) and his sinless purified progeny.

aisa likhnay say koi faeda a1shah?
you know it, i know it and every1else knows it. Phir bilawaja kyoun aap likhtay hein aisee controversial cheezein???

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

I dont know what is the point of posting LOOONNGGGUS posts from inneumerable self serving web sites,No body is going to read themb/c its just weords written & atleast all guppos are literatye to write there opinion & it would be just as credible as any here ,for crying out loud.For the poster it may mean a lot but out here it depends upon the audience .
I have another credibility problem,after seeing posts of Watcher supporting Sheaz01 & him having watche as well as Sheraz,rhubab ,& god knows how many other ,makes it impossible to make oncself to read or discuss anything serious.
My suggestion is discuss controversy less & common grounds more like Pakistan,Islam,Have fun,anything but divisive discussion.Really it is useless to read many of the materials from an age when religion was evry thing,i mean 1200 yrs agi before arabs learnt astronony,medicine, mathematics,science etc,thee was only one subject hence it was so pevasive that every moment of there study & writing &* reading was religion.How can you fit that kind of concentration when we have atleast 100 other subjects since then tio discuss,Good thing can happen if we exoand our intellect to include MORE than religion,Im not saying PRACTICE less,practice even more than before ,but read other literatures also


"The greatest trick that the devil played was to convince that he doesn't exist"movie-Usual Suspect

a1shah....good going.

Back to your original colors. Your insertion of personal hatred into a simple issue makes everything seem useless. If you have a different version of events, present them and be done with it. You do not have the right or the status to sit here and insult Hazrat Umar farooq RA, or any other sahabi for that matter. Enough is enough.

None of it is relative to this thread anyway.

For the one who does not understand, ayah 11 of surat Ash-Shurah which means: [Nothing is like him and he is attributed with hearing and sight] does not deny the attributes of Allah. Allah has the attributes of perfection and those attributes do not resemble our attributes or any of the creations, that is what the verse means.

Allah hears and sees everything, but his hearing and sight is NOT LIKE THE CREATIONS. Allah does not have a hand or a face meaning the jariha, as the creation has. Allah does not resemble his creations.

Imam bukhary made ta'weel for the word: [wajhuh] in Qur'an to hid dominion, and not face.

.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited February 11, 2001).]

Ahmad G,
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/002239.html

Forgetting so soon?

.

Thank you Girl From Quraysh.

[This message has been edited by Ahmad G (edited February 12, 2001).]

When did SOMEONE said Allah resembles his creation? MY TOPIC was ATTRIBUTES OF ALLAH, he has ATTRIBUTES, I never said he has attributes like us or his creation. What are you debating on? Didn’t you read the intial post? Did you read the posts in between?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Did You read this: - “nothing is like him and he is ATTRIBUTED with sight and hearing”
???So at one hand you deny that he does not have any ATTRIBUTES and at one hand you say he is attributed with sight and hearing???

My concern is NOT what allah looks like, my concern is that he has attributes. READ THE TOPIC!!!"



V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----


**“Nay! We hurl truth against falsehood, so it destroys it: and behold, falsehood is vanquished…”**Quran, al-Furqaan 25:33 ]

Dear brothers and sisters,

Asalam-alaikum,

This is my first posting. I felt compelled to join this discussion. It's a very difficult subject and one that becomes clouded by our collective limited knowledge. But here goes...

The concept of Allah is beyond our comprehension. It is futile to argue someone into a method of visualising a physical, material being. The talk displayed so far digresses at points and does just that. Allah is assigned the 99 beautiful names. His names are derived into attributes. As muslims we must adopt and learn from these attributes.

Islam, (whichever sect), is made simple: follow the five basic principles. The closer we follow these the more veils that are removed from our hearts, and clearer the path becomes.

Shaytan has promised to mislead us, and he will mislead us in the simple things, injecting deviances into our minds. Restrict yourselfs into acknowledging the 5 fundamentals and you will never stray. Innovation leads to sectoral divergance. Becareful before you speak inorder never to lead another muslim astray. We cannot and should not tak about the face of Allah to whatever extent, even if our intent is good for this very reason. Sometimes our discussions can be backed up by proofs or quotations. The real meanings of the Quran and Sunnah are with the highly learned, and much knowledge has died with the passing of time and the death of learned men.

It says in the Quran that Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein. Our jugular vein is inside us. Is Allah within us? Or does this mean that Allah is so close to us that He knows our thoughts, our motives our souls?

This is going beyond the realm of the physical. Please take a moment to reflect. The Quran asks us on many occasions to do so, for it is the book of which there is no doubt. It is our only guide. Let it guide us.

At the beginning I started with the words Asalam-alaikum. this is the standard universal greeting of every muslim. It means 'peace be upon you.' How serious are we with this greeting? It seems every topic nowadays strays into questioning whether sunnis/shias/wahabis ..etc.. are true followers. We need to redress this with 'Am I on the right path?' That is the greatest jihad.

Salam.
MT

'There is no God but He: That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge...' (Quran, 3:18)

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[This message has been edited by Admin (edited February 15, 2001).]