Iqadeer, please wait for one or two days I will provide you with whole long essay about the Jinns.
MIRZA YASIR
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Salam,
Here is an alternate argument, using the Qur'an, feel free to criticize:
"When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! ** I am about to create man ** out of clay,
And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate,
The angels fell down prostrate, every one,
Saving Iblis; he was scornful and became one of the disbelievers." (38:71-74)
It would seem from these verses that God, in a dialogue with the angels, proclaims that He is ** "about to create man" *. In other words, man did not exist prior to this event - God was * "about to create man" ** - the key word being ** "about" **. God than creates man. And than asks the angels to prostrate to His new creation (the first man who He just created). They do with the exception of Iblis.
"And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! ** I am creating man ** out of potter's clay of black mud altered,
So, ** when I have made him ** and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him.
So the angels fell prostrate, all of them together
Save Iblis. He refused to be among the prostrate." (15:26-31)
Here is another set of verses confirming the above. That God in a dialogue with the angels informs them that ** "I [God] am creating man" *, illustrating that man did not exist prior to this event. He goes on to inform the angels that * "when I [God] have made him [man]," *, signifying that man was not * "made" ** prior to this event, they should fall down and prostrate. They do with the exception of Iblis. The question than becomes who was this man - the following verse answers that question:
"And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! ** I am about to place a viceroy in the earth ** , they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not...
And when We said unto the angels: ** Prostrate yourselves before Adam ** , they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever." (2:30 & 34)
The man was Adam. God continues in his dialogue with the angels, ** "I am about to place a viceroy in the earth" *, this illustrates that no viceroy existed on earth prior to this event. Humans, in Islam have the duty of being viceroy's on earth - this individual was to be the first viceroy on earth. Later in the verses, Allah mentions the name of this individual, when He proclaims to the angels * "prostate yourselves before Adam" **.
Adam therefore seems to be the first ** "viceroy in the earth" *, he also seems to be the first man; whereas God proclaims * "I am about to create man" *, when * "[God] has created [man]" **, a being we know as Adam, the angels prostrate to him, with the exception of Iblis. If man existed prior to this event, it would seem to me that God would not address the angels in this manner. Rather He would inform them that He was about to place an existing creation (man) on earth. He opted to inform them that He was about to embark on a new creation, that new creation being man, and that they would have to bow down to this new creation.
Although not directly stated, the Qur'an definitely does seem to imply that Adam was the first man (note: the Qur'an does not state that Adam was not the first man either).
With respect to the verses 4:1 (Nafs-i-Wahida), three other verses have similar discussions - 7:189, 31:28 and 6:98 - all four seem to discuss the presence of a "single soul" out of which God created both man and woman. This soul seems to have been created prior to the creation of man or woman. Therefore it would seem that this "single soul" was neither male nor female. Once separated into two by God it took the form of male and female. But this soul was neither man or woman or human. Since these verses are discussing a creation which "evolved" into human, but wasn't human itself (rather a "single soul")it would seem as though Adam, according to the Qur'an was the first man. Weather he was the first human-being (ie did a female come prior to his creation), I am not sure.
Feel free to rip my argument apart...still struggling...
Achtung ;)
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited April 06, 1999).]
Jewels of Insignificance
No offence intended, but it seems to me that its highly inappropriate and unbecoming to use the word "Molvi" in such a derogatory manner. If we have a valid and legitimate argument, we must, to all extents, try to refrain from name-calling. After all what does it really acheive?. Also, if we think for a second, all the denominations in Islam have an equivalent of the term "Molvi" and usually they are referred to as "Ulema". Granted, we all have differences of opinion, which are largely shaped by our experiences and culture, we must try to stay within the bounds of civilized norms and extend due respect to people wherever necessary.
achtung,
i'll be trying to be very short and to the point in this essay! please do not take it as it was harsh. there's a smile on my face, its just that i wanted to keep it short so its firm and to the point :)
=========== verse 1:
"When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create man out of clay,
And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate,
The angels fell down prostrate, every one,
Saving Iblis; he was scornful and became one of the disbelievers." (38:71-74)"
He is "about to create man" . In other words, man did not exist prior to this event
please change your words, man did not exist prior to this "dialogue"!
if you think the event of iblees took place at the same time as the dialogue, then you are wrong, because at the time of the dialogue, adam was NOT created yet! adam was created at a later stage.
so it concludes that the event of iblees took place on a LATER stage, i.e. after
*******1) creating humans ( not adam, but HUMANS) ,
****2) fashioning human beings through an evolution (evolution, because if god was making him by hand, he shouldve said "be" and man wouldve been! why would he need to shape him then? so it is clear that fashioning man is thru evolution)
*******3) giving them his spirit!( thru adam)
so this verse too, like all others, goes diretly in favour of evolution, and my essay.
========== verse 2:
"And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating man out of potter's clay of black mud altered,
So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him.
So the angels fell prostrate, all of them together
Save Iblis. He refused to be among the prostrate." (15:26-31)
this verse too, is a strong point in the favour of evolution.
see, look at the steps
********1) creation through clay ( see the erabic dictionary to find out "khuleqa-min-fulanin" means to put the thing in their nature)
*****2) completion thru evolution ( you wrote "when i made him" the koranic verse is "when i complete him". if it is not evolution, then man shouldve been there in no time! god shouldve said "be" and he shouldve been! why is this completion taking time? surely its because its an evolution )
********3) and after reaching the best shape, giving him gods spirit ( thru adam)
this verse has therefore shown the same three steps as the first one. and these are in exact acordance with my first essay! and this verse also talks about HUMANS and not adam!
=========== verse 3:
"And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth , they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not...
And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam , they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever." (2:30 & 34)
this verse clearly states that adam was not the first human being, but the first prophet!
according to koran, a viceroy is a prophet and not the first human being
koran says in chapter 38:
" o david, i have made you a viceroy in the earth."
how will you translate it? will you conclude that there were no human beings before prophet david? no ofcourse you wont! here you translate viceroy as a "prophet!" then why has the word changes the meaning for adam?
a meter rod should measure equal, no matter the cloth is cotton or silk!
so the conclusion is:
if viceroy is a prophet,
then adam is the first PROPHET and not the human being. and david is a prophet too!
if the viceroy is the "first human being"
then adam and david both are equally suitable for this rank!!
Jewels, my argument was not concerning evolution. It was rather concerning weather or not Adam was the first man. It would seem to me that you are arguing that God created man through a series of steps, than after a period of time, once God had completed His creation, He ordered the angels to fall prostrate in front of man. I think most Muslims would agree with you. The issues of contention here are as follows:
1) What were the steps in the creation of man
2) Was there a time lapse between the creation of man and God's Order for the angels to prostrate
3) Was Adam the first man created
4) What is a viceroy
For the first issue I would argue that man was created in steps. This is clearly indicated in the Qur'an on various occasions:
"Thinketh man that he is to be left aimless ?
Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth ?
Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned
And made of him a pair, the male and female." (75:36-39)
Many argue that these steps are in fact elusive to embryology and the miracle of birth. The steps taken from a simple organism, a sperm penetrating an egg, becoming a clot, a fetus, taking shape and being fashioned, into its final form of human.
Another school of thought goes a step further and argues that evolution is discussed in the pages of the Qur'an. They utilize verses of the Qur'an to support their argument. Verses which discuss the creation of man in stages. Stages, which they argue, allude to the steps in the evolutionary chain. Verses which are ambiguous.
I personally would feel a little wary in adopting the western scientific notion of evolution without subjecting it to further scientific tests. It is debated and yet not a confirmed theory. To elevate it to the status of divine revelation is in my opinion very dangerous (as I've discussed in another post.)
On the second issue I believe there could have been a time lapse as Jewels has mentioned. However, at the same time I find it strange that God would address the angels far prior to the creation of man and ask them to bow down to man, once he is created. It would seem more logical for God to address the angels once man was created, and than order them to bow down to the new creation. Rather than ask them to wait until God had finished His creation, which would take quite some time, in light of changes which take place on an evolutionary scale (which often take hundreds to thousands of years). The notion that there was a time lapse (between creation of man and the Order given to angels to prostrate to man) seems to be based on conjecture rather than Qur'anic evidence.
Further, on the third issue, I think it is clear from the Qur'an, that Adam was the first man created. Even if a time lapse did exist, God asked the angels to prostrate to His new creation once He had finished. That creation, once complete, regardless of weather the creation was evolutionary or not, was Adam. You argue that in the first two verses I quoted, God was addressing "humans and not Adam." However, the first two verses I quoted discuss the creation of man, along with an order for the angels to prostrate down to this man - that man was Adam (not any human). In the Qur'an, on countless occasions when God mentions the creation of man, he does so paralleling the story of Iblis. Iblis is to bow to the first man created (not a descendent of other men, not the second or third man). The man in these stories, is undeniably Adam. If God did indeed create a creation prior to Adam, from whom he fashioned man, this creation were not men, and furthermore not human. On the contrary, Adam was the first man, perhaps the first human (according to the Qur'an).
On the fourth issue, regarding the term "viceroy", for which the Arabic equivalent is "Khilafah" (it is also alternated in English for the translation "inheritor"). Adam, as a representative of humanity, is given the label of viceroy by God. The implication is that all humans are to act as viceroy's. This notion is further supplanted in the following verses; verses which discuss all of humanity as God's viceroys:
6:165 - "He it is Who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others..."
7:69 - "Remember how He made you viceroys after Noah's folk, and gave you growth of stature..."
7:74 - "And remember how He made you viceroys after A'ad and gave you station in the earth..."
7:129 - "It may be that your Lord is going to destroy your adversary and make you viceroys in the earth, that He may see how ye behave."
10:14 - "Then We appointed you viceroys in the earth after them, that We might see how ye behave."
10:73 - "We saved him and those with him in the ship, and made them viceroys (in the earth), while We drowned those who denied Our revelations."
27:62 - "Is not He (best) Who answereth the wronged one when he crieth unto Him and removeth the evil, and hath made you viceroys of the earth ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Little do they reflect!"
43:60 - "And had We willed We could have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth."
The Prophets like other men are also viceroys, they are also "exalted in rank" as 6:165 indicates (above). The following two verses, are the only two I can find in the Qur'an which are specific to Prophets as viceroys:
2:30 - "I am about to place a viceroy in the earth..." (Specific to Adam)
38:26 - "O David! Lo! We have set thee as a viceroy in the earth..."
Prophets are men. As men they too are viceroys. But that does not negate our responsibility as viceroy's as well. The very purpose for the creation of humanity was so that God could have a viceroy on earth. We are those viceroy's. As viceroy's we have a responsibility to take care of the earth. This concept is similar to the Christian concept of "Stewardship". Something many of them have abandoned. Adam was the first viceroy. All men and women that followed him were also viceroys - but he was the first - by that same token:
1) Adam was the first viceroy on earth (2:30). No viceroy's existed on earth prior to him,
2) Since all men are viceroys. No men existed on earth prior to him.
3) Therefore Adam was also the first man on earth.
Achtung ;)
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited April 06, 1999).]
dear achtung,
my theory:
the thory which i prove from the koran, is unique, and completely new in the world of islam. basically, it has been impressed by the views of mirza bashiruddin mahmood of qadian. the little essays you see here are breif sketches out of which i am planning to make a detailed essay. thus i have really appreciated, and have been greatly benefitted by your argument against it, because this will help me come to a more sensible essay than couldve been otherwise. i hope you will not take this little exchange of different ideas as a personal argument against you. my intention is neat one, and i am willing to take out as much as i can from the essays you post hereby. i am grateful for your co operation.
however, you seem to be a bit confused about what i am trying to say.
my theory suggests three steps:
1) creation:
man was created thru step by step development of simple orgnisms into complex ones, thry step by step development.
2) shaping, or fashioning, thru evolution:
this process takes place in long stages, and finally the human race, with developed minds is formed. after this:
3) sending prophet adam:
once the human civilization was mentally capable of living in a civilized way, god sent adam as a viceroy, who taught them new things, which they had not knows before.
this evolutuion is a continuos process, and as humans develop, new prophets come to cater the needs of more developed minds. they teach new things and repeat the story of adam.
the three steps that i wrote above are evidently been told by the koran in the verses that you yourself posted.
the verses i posted were treated by this sentence:
Verses which are ambiguous
however, in the very beginning of koran, allah says, "laraib a feeh", thus leaving behind no ambiguity for those who belive. however, your sentence was meant in general, for the verses presented by supporters of evolution. if any of the verses posted in my essays is ambiguious, please point it out so we can discuss it in a seperate thread and come to an acceptable meaning.
******* TIME LAPSE:
It would seem more logical for God to address the angels
once man was created, and than order them to bow down to
the new creation. Rather than ask them to wait until God
had finished His creation, which would take quite some
time, in light of changes which take place on an
evolutionary scale (which often take hundreds to thousands
of years).
1) The time, as we human beings sense, is not the same sensation for god and angels. as a proof:
-chapter 32, verse 5: "a day which, which is more than a thousand years to your counting."
-chapter 70, verse 4: "a day, which counts to about 50 000 years."
i think this will make it clear that angels did not have to wait for hundrds or thousands of years, and it was perfectly logical of god to tell them that they he was about to create man.
2) if we dont take this time lapse, then there will be two confusions,
a-) god told the angels that he is "about to" make man. this "about to" will not be comprehendable if there is no time lapse. the term "about to" clearly suggests a time lapse. so the angels had no choice but to wait, even if for a thousand years (which is not the case) , because allah just told them he was "about to" make man.
b-) the mentioning of "fashioning" or "shaping" man also clearly and strongly suggests a time lapse. otherwise, if there were no time lapse, mere "creating" would have been enough to represent the whole story. god couldve created in the best of shapes, if man were to be created at once!
therefore on the above evidences i strongly suggest that the idea of time lapse in the story is based on strong and clear koranic evidence than on conjeture.
******* WHETHER ADAM IS THE FIRST HUMAN BEING:
Even if a time lapse did exist, God asked the angels to
prostrate to His new creation once He had finished. That
creation, once complete, regardless of weather the
creation was evolutionary or not, was Adam.
a) From the koranic verses studied thru this thread it is evident that god asked the angels to prostrate ( which in arabic, also means, submittance, keeping in mind koran also says there is none worthy of prostration other than allah himself) only after creating man, shaping him, and then giving thru adam, his words into them. only on the creation of adam, was the human race civlized enough to be submitted to, by the angels. thus adam is the first civilized human being, rather than the first human being.
b) although allah tells them to bow to adam, allah does not say, " bow to adam, the first human being" but says, " bow to adam, the human being which has finally been fashioned into the best of shapes, and given the words of allah." thus allah told them to boe to he first civilized human being.
c) with what you are trying to say, god wouldve first created, then made the angels prostrate, and THEN shape and fashion thru evolution. if that had been the case, surely adam wouldve been the first human being. however, the case is, first there is creation of man, then shaping of man, and after reaching the best shape, telling them his words, or giving them his spirit. it is AFTER reaching this level of civilization, in the shape of prophet adam, that allah told the angels to prostrate.
d) you said, "iblees is bow to the first man created" . this is not in accordance with the koranic verses. koran tells us, that first mankind was created, then underwent an evolution, then was taught the words of allah, and THEN iblees is to bow to the first man who appeared as an eventual result. the creation of mankind had a long time ago, been started, shaping thru evolution has reached a suitable extent, and now allah is about to teach them his words. adam was the man whom allah taught his words, thus appearing as the first civilized man.
e) you said, " If God did indeed create a creation prior to Adam, from whom he fashioned man, this creation were not men, and furthermore not human." dear friend, as adam was from within the creatures who got evolved into the best shape, then if adam is a man, all those other creatures must be men too. however, you forgot that this creation, which undrewent an evolution, has been regarded as "bashr" which has only one meaning, i.e. "man".
f) please accept the fact that there is NO direct or indirect verse in the koran which clearly says "adam was the first human being".
************** Viceroy
here is a reply to all your verses:
a) "khilafaa mim ba'de" as used for NATIONS ( not single person ) means "successors to"
7:69,7:74,10:14,
in these verses the phrase "khilafaa mim ba'ade"is used, which is not comparable to "khaleefatun fil arz" as used for adam and david!
note that "khilafaa mim ba'ade" according to arabic dictionary means "SUCCESSORS TO" rather than "VICEROYS AFTER". all these verses talk about nations who are successors to certain other nations.
b) " khlaaifa fil arz" or "khilaaiful arz" as used for NATIONS means "successors"
6:165 7:129 10:73 27:62
all of them use the phrase told above, for NATIONS, and not to single people
c) "khaleefatun fil arz" as used for SINGLE is only used TWICE!
these two verses use the phrase :khaleefatun fil arz" for single people:
2:30 - "I am about to place a viceroy in the earth..." (Specific to Adam)
38:26 - "O David! Lo! We have set thee as a viceroy in the earth..."( specific to david)
thus the conclusion is, meter rod should measure the same for cotton and silk! this phrase is only used TWICE once for adam, and once for david, in exactly the same way! so if "viceroy" means first human being, then adam and david both qualify for this rank!
the only way to resolve this conflict is, to believe that khaleefatun fil arz, is a prophet to earth, and adam was the first prophet!
So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)
Salam,
Alright Jewels, lets just stick to the question of weather or not "Adam was the first human being?" We can deal with the others later if need be. The posts are getting to long and we are debating too many issues at once.
If you could clarify for me what your definition is of a "civilized man". And what would you call the men prior to Adam - "uncivilized men". Doesn't science make a distinction in the modern present man and previous species. Aren't they differentiated by species? I recall there existing differences (i.e. the modern human species evolved from Australopethicus and continuing with homo habilis, homo erectus and than to modern homo sapiens).
Is that the evolution you are talking about? Are you saying that Adam was the first "homo sapien". And those prior to him were in the station of evolution. If that is the case than our confusion is based on languange, semantics. What your calling "civilized man", others would call "homo sapien". Those prior to homo sapiens, are not of the same species. They evolved into homo sapiens. You could say they were not "men" as in how we define men today - homo sapiens.
Hence Adam was the first homo sapien - to be specific. Is this what your saying?
Secondly, what happened to the other pre-homo sapiens (or pre-civilized men to use your language. Did they too evolve? Was Adam the first to evolve into "homo-sapien"? If they too evolved, why is so much emphasis placed on Adam's children, and not the children of the other humans (who eventually would have evolved along side him)? Why don't we here about their stories. Or was Adam the only one to have evolved into this state, along with Eve?
Achtung ;)
sallaamm
the person who posted this topic may i ask if ur muslim or not plzz tell>?
dear achtung,
The fossil evidence for human evolution begins with Australopithecus. the genus seems to have become extinct about 1.5 million years ago. All the australopithecines were efficiently bipedal and therefore indisputable hominines. By about 2.6 million years ago, the fossil evidence reveals the presence of at least two separate species of hominines. An evolutionary split seems to have occurred, with one segment evolving toward the genus Homo, and finally to modern humans, and the others developing into the robust australopithecines, which became extinct about 1.5 million years ago.
A large-brained, small-toothed hominine, now known as Homo erectus, emerged in Africa at least 1.7 million years ago. Between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago, H. erectus evolved into H. sapiens. This is what we can possibly call the orthodox scientfic view.
As i explained earlier, my basic source of knowledge is koran, and therefore i have trouble how i can relate to modern scientific concepts. Thus although i can present the koranic concept of evolution from one stage to another, how each stage of human development is termed according to palaentologists, is something i am often confused about. lets see if you can be of help in sorting this out. i am already much grateful for the effort you have put to perform a possible evaluation of this theory, and point out those concepts which could possibly arise in the minds of a common reader, thus helping me find out where i stand as regards a common-man rationality.
What i have been talking about in my essays is, that first there was creation of human beings being termed as "bashr" by the koran.
however, this theory could be much more understandable if we could mae the process of creation much less abrupt. thus we should rather say this creation is very much a result of evolution. this concept at once finds support from the koran. so in chapter 71, Noah, allah says, "wakad khalakakum atwara" i.e. we ceated you through stages of evolution.
you have rightly pointed out as to what are "civilized" human beings, i.e. what species do they belong to.
by the koran, we get to know that human beings continued to develop, and once they were developed enough to understand their origin and the words of allah, to start living in a civilized manner taught to them by allah, adam was sent by allah as the first teacher on earth.
thus no matter what species those "civlized" human beings belong to, adam was the first PROPHET who was either from within the species he came from or was the first person from his species.
considering that this species is homosapien, and adam is the first homosapien, making him the first "man" i.e. "bashr" , we would have to face contradiction from the koranic theory that those "bashr" have been created before adam. so we have to believe that adam was from within those whom he came for.
as for your second question, there is a difference between a real father and a spirtual father, thus the point of view you are posting has long ago been negated by me and abdullah failed to answer me.
the wives of prophet muhammad are called "umhaatul momineen" and muhammad ali jinah is called "baba-ekom" the father of the nation. does this mean mohammad ali jinah is our biological father? or can we say the wivers of prophet mohammad are our biological ancestors?
it is an normality that when the word mother or father is used for someone regarding a whole nation, it always means spiritual mother or father and not biological one.
however, i would like to repost a sentence, from which we can possibly try to find out the origin of adam, and possibly an answer to the question as to what happened to those who refused to accept his modern ways of living:
"By about 2.6 million years ago, the fossil evidence reveals the presence of at least two separate species of hominines. An evolutionary split seems to have occurred, with one segment evolving toward the genus Homo, and finally to modern humans, and the others developing into the robust australopithecines, which became extinct about 1.5 million years ago."
may allah guide us to the right knowledge. though it is much difficult without divine help to find out the real origin and time of adam, one thing which is 100% known thru koran is, adam was NOT the first human being.
adam was a teacher to the first species who was mentally developed enough to deserve one. which species it was, is an interesting question which i would love to investigate and find an answer to.
i would be grateful for your help.
So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)
Jewels,
In terms of your argument regarding the word "father" used as symbol for mankind/humanity, rather than an individual statement regarding Adam's biological children that maybe true (in some instances). However, the children of Adam, specifically the children of Adam and Eve are given special status in the Quran and mentioned specifically.
"Recite to them the truth of the story of the ** two ** sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah): It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "Allah doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous." (Quran 5:27)
The verses go on to relate the story of Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam and Eve. This story is also related in the Bible:
"Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man." Later she gave birth to his brother Abel." (Genesis 4:1-2)
The Bible goes on to relate other children - in a genealogy, which traces individuals, up to Isaac and Ismail. Why are the other "civilized" humans, who would have evolved prior (or with) Adam not mentioned in any of the religious texts? Adam being a Prophet, should have had the duty to preach to them as well as his own children. But we only hear about his relationship with his own children and wife.
Achtung ;)
I don't think that it is important, why do you guys think it is important!???
Hamid