Achtung's Inquiry In To Ahmedi Perspectives

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Since Our Utopian Prince was too lazy or preocupied with the daily chores of rationalization to start another thread, I have done so with his questions:

1)Do the Ahmadi believe that the Sunni Quran is incomplete (missing some Ayat)?

  1. Do the Ahmadi believe that they have a completed version of the Quran?

  2. What verses complete the Quran, could you display them?

  3. When were the verses revealed and how did the Ahmadi come upon them (discover them)?

  4. What does this say about the Ahmadi belief in other versions of Islam - do they believe others (sunni, shia, etc) are unbelievers (since they do not have a completed version of the revelation)?

Kindly provide answers to these questions with the absence of opinion.

Stud

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Bismihi Ta'la
Assalam o alaikum

Allow me to add a few more this,

  1. what other revelations seperate from the Quran, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed had claimed to have received, form an important constituent of Ahmadi belief?

As to the question of the Sunni Quran being complete, I am somewhat surprised at the term "Sunni". One can state that the Quran of Uthmanic rescension, but not necessarily the "Sunni" Quran.

There was one booklet, I read of Mirza Saheb, titled "Testimony of the Holy Quran", and the jist of the argument was, that even though revelation has ceased to exist, it does not imply that divine guidance ceases to exist (even though we have a book), and hence then revelation and prophethood has to continue. I just find this reflective of the deficency of the Sunni concept of leadership, where now we have the "Caliphs" that are successors to Mirza Saheb. Since the Sunni concept of a leader seperates the political and spiritual affairs, Mirza saheb wished to bring them together, and to bring it together he had to claim nubuwwa.

Of course, we can always exchange our views on the issue. Read the account of the Ahmadies in the Modern Oxford Islamic Encyclopedia, edited by John Esposito.

Lastly, when the Ahmadies respond could you site the references you are using, whatever commentary etc.

Have a good day.

-- Ali Abbas

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited April 13, 1999).]

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well i don't have a vast knowledge on Islam and in particular to my religious sect #(Sunni)

but i have been having quite a deep and lengthy dialogue with a Ahmedi, and i see that they have a vast amount of knowledge on what they believe
the points that have been discussed between us are

  1. The return of Jesus
  2. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)climbing the skies
  3. and the coming of the 12th and last messiah Imam Mehdi

these where the main points of our discussions
oh and the blasting of movlvi's and the like of Moododi saab etc

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saaallaammm

Stud are u looking for answers from each persons point of view??????I think they should be from quran or hadith...if its in opinion form anybody could say anything!

Jaawan

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As for the answer to your questions:

"we, with a strong belief, have faith in the fact, that koran is the last of the books from heaven, and not even the smallest part can be added or subtracted to it. now, there can not be any such "wahi" or "ilhaam" from allah, which could change, cancel, add to, or negate any single teaching of koran. If someone thinks otherwise, he, in our opinion, is an unbeliever."
( mirza ghulam ahmad of qadian,
azaalah-e-awhaam page 69-70 )

it was rather funny to see some of us using the term "sunni koran" keeping in mind that when we ahmadis discuss issues with them thru koran, they run away to talk about hadith! they would rather put hadith over koran, and yet an ahmedi could be jailed for three years and heavily fined for reciting the verses of holy koran.

will some of the sunnis try to throw light on the status of the promised imam mehdi? was he not called "nabiullah" four times in a saying of prophet mohammad? will he not receieve divine guidance?

all 72 sects, themselves have to give the same status to an imam mehdi they are waiting for, yet for the only one which says he has arrived, giving the same status to their promised messiah, is supposed to be a disgrace to prophet mohammad! Ahmedis are sentenced to death for doing that.

then they make up a "honour of prophethood comittee"! which virtually undresses and murders a father, does exactly the same with the son, throw their naked dead bodies in he street where they lay naked for 8 hours. the life in the streets go on, people pass by and look at the naked dead bodies and no one has the courage to pick them up!

yeh honour of prophethood ki hifazat ho rahee hai!!!!

So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)

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I think we have the answer to the first question.
I think Jewls has pointed out that the Ahmedis do not beleive in an incomplete Quran.
If this is true, lets confirm it and then move to the second question.I would want to confirm this so we can avoid going in to circles. The last thing we need is another Sunni Scholar telling us that the Ahmedis think that some Surahs are missing from the Quran. So when we have confirmed this we will move to the second question :

  1. Do Ahmedis consider other muslims who reject Mirza as Kafir?

It is my intention to get a basic understanding of the Ahmedi Faith. I am not trying to judge them I am simply interested why so much violence has been inflicted on a people.

Stud

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Jewels stated "when we ahmadis discuss issues with them thru koran, they run away to talk about hadith! they would rather put hadith over koran". To me this is a blatant exaggeration of the fact that sunnis have utmost respect for the words of prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). Bear in mind, whatever Mohammad (peace be upon him) said does not contradict the teachings of Quran in any way but rather simplifies the understanding of it by providing contextual information on certain ayaats. That is why the tafaseer of Quran always mention a hadith in support of most of the ayaats.

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mirza yasir wrote :
""Its a fact that sunni ulema canceled some ayaat of Quran or I should say some aehkamat of Quran. I can provide you the exact references"" in the thread case against Ahmedis ….
While jewels says that Ahmedis believe that the Quran is not changed and cannot be changed.

Now there is a clash between statements of mirza yasir and jewels, so which ahmedi is right ???

The problem with Ahmedis is that they try to understand Quran, the way they like. They translate the ayahs of Quran according to their thinking, knowledge and benefit. Normally, if a Muslim discuss some issue with an Ahmedi, the Ahmedis will reject the translation first of all. If the Muslims then try to give them evidences from the sunnah of Prophet SAW, they reject them also, saying it is against the (ahmedi translation of) Quran.

For example the case of Hazrat Eisa Alaissalam, you give them Quranic verses, you give them ahadith, they will not believe, only Allah SWT knows the reason why.

Quran does have preference over hadith, but one can never understand Quran without sunnah /hadith. Quran has to be understood the way the Companions RAA of Prophet SAW learned/understood from him.

One more thing, there is only one Quran sent to us by Allah SWT, no other sunni Quran or shia Quran is there.

Wallaho Alam wassalatu wassalamo ala nabiyyana Mohammed.

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If my knowledge is correct, the Quran Sharif was compiled after the death of our prophet(pbuh); as such, it is possible that sections were ommitted or revised.
The point to consider here is -- the Ahmadias considered changes or deviations as the Ummah's intrepretation of the Quran and Shari'a was not in keeping with the times. Moreover, the Ahmedias have been more successful in increasing their numbers thru conversions than any other muslim groups - so apparently, their teachings has appeal to the converts.

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Here are my detailed responses to the five questions posed by Stud on Achtung's behalf. Please note that my answers are a result of a very thorough and in-depth analysis of years of research and study into Religions and Logic (two extremes of a same concept). Below are my answers:

  1. What difference does it make?

  2. Should that make a difference?

  3. Why would that make a difference?

  4. It doesn't make any difference.

  5. Same difference.

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So we are still stuck on the same point. I want this particular issue to be resolved.

DO Ahmedis Beleive that certain Ayats are missing or deleted from the QUran?

Lets Have A yes or no with specific reference. Yasir tell us what you know.

Stud

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Reply to Stud posted April 14, 1999 10:42 AM

Stud, I think Jewels has given you the best possible answer for that, in the original words of Promised Messiah.
What exactly you want to know more about the Quran and its purity?

As far as the fundamental beliefs or act of worship is concerned, Ahmadi-Muslims have neither taken anything out nor added any thing new to the religion of Islam. The Ahmadi-Muslims make their declaration of faith by reciting the same Kalima which was recited by the Prophet Mohammed(SA) himself; they say their Prayers and **Fast *in the same manner as the Holy Prophet(SA) did; and their *Qibla -the Ka’ba; ** their **Azan *and their *Quran *all exactly the same as that of the other Muslims. **Clear???*

It is certainly a false concept in other Muslims that Ahamdis has abrogated/altered the Holy Quran (nauzobillah).

ANSWER to STUD’s NEXT REPLY posted April 13, 1999 09:13 PM
REF: “Do Ahmedis consider other muslims who reject Mirza as Kafir?”

The simple answer is ... We as Ahmadis claim that we are the true followers of Rasool Allah(sa) and anyone who bestow upon this Reverend Personality(sa) with Drood, and recite Kalima is a certainly a Muslim. Moreover we have no right to judge the faith of an individual’s beliefs. ... dillon ka haal to sirf khuda he jaanta hai...

Let me narrate an incidence, so that all the readers can understand the concept of being called a Muslim.

It was during the course of a war, a party of Muslims came upon a non-Muslim who used to lie in wait in lonely places and whenever he found a solitary Muslim he would attack and kill him. On this occasion Usama bin Zaid pursued him and, having overtaken and caught him, drew his sword to kill him. When the man found that no way of escape was left open to him, he repeated the first portion of the Muslim confession of faith, viz., "There is no being worthy of worship save Allah," thereby indicating that he had accepted Islam. Usama paid no heed to this and killed him.

When this, among the other incidents of the campaign, was related to the Holy Prophet he sent for Usama and questioned him. On his confirming the account of the incident the Prophet(sa) said : "How will it be with you on the Day of Judgement when his confession of faith will bear witness in his favour ?" Usama replied, "0 Messenger of Allah ! that man was a murderer of Muslims and his declaring himself to be a Muslim was merely a excuse to escape just retribution." But the Prophet went on repeating:"Usama, how will it be with you when the man's confession of faith will bear witness against you on the Day of Judgement ?". Usama protested that the man's reciting of confession of faith was due to his fear of death and was not an indication of repentance. Thereupon the Holy Prophet said :"Did you peep into his heart to see whether he was telling the truth or not ?" and went on repeating : "How will you answer on the Day of Judgement when his confession of faith will be cited in evidence against you ?"

Usama says : "On hearing the Prophet repeat this so often I wished that I had become a convert to Islam only that moment and had not been guilty of what was charged against me". *(Muslim, Kitab al-lman).*

Now look at the Moral of that Elegant personality(sa) and look at the fatwas of today’s ulamas... who do think is correct????

Reply to Abdullah posted April 14, 1999 02:10 AM

Dear Abdullah, we will discuss this topic on another thread, so that we can have an open discussion on controversial verses, one by one.. is that ok??

Indeed there is one and only Quran, which is still as pure as it was reveled on the Holy Prophet(sa) and can neither be amended nor abrogated by any means. It is a very wrong concept among certain Muslims that some verses has been revoke/replaced, nauzobillah. (as ** adbulmalick ** above and deepblue in another thread has mentioned).

I also have read the same concept in the preface of Maulana Thanwi’s translation too. The Holy Quran contradicts this false belief. I will write on this issue later with references...

wa’salam

benevolently yours,

Zalim

[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 14, 1999).]

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Reply to Zalim

Two things the Readers should keep in mind when discussing the completeness of the Quran:
(1) Quran was compiled after the death of our Prophet(pbuh) and,
(2) it was compiled by the Sunnis after the major schism in Islam, i.e. the splitting of the Shittes from Sunni.
One other thing to note is the prodigious use of the word "Naujibillah" - mostly in vain; We pretend to be so self-righteous--it's nauseating!

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Adbulmalick please prove your statement with authentic references..

The only and only revision done after the demise of Holy Prophet(sa) is the addition of “Aeraabs”, which was done during the tenure of Hadhrat Usman(ra) in order to preserve the pronunciation along with the text. Its sequencing is done by Holy Prophet(sa) by himself.

Lets open another thread on this interesting topic and leave this session for Stud’s query.. ok??

thankyou

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 14, 1999).]

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I don't think zalim understood what I wrote about naskh-mansookh because if he had, he'd see that what I said and what AbdulMalick said have nothing in common. None at all. This was exactly the misconception I tried removing in that other post.

And for what it's worth, 'airaabs' were added much later than the time of Hazrat Usman (RAA). What he did, was to publish a sequenced copy of Quran and select one of the arabic dialects as default. Remember, that there were close to seven dialects which could have been used for qiraat, and Hazrat Usman (RAA) chose to make one as the standard (and it still didn't invalidate the others)

Allah knows best.

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I think this thread was supposed to inquire ahmedis about their beliefs, rather than the sunni scholars to dictate the beliefs to ahmedis!

whether koran was compiled after or before the death of the prophet is a discussion which belongs to a seperate thread. however, to end this discussion:

"No indeed, its a reminder
-and whoso wills, shall take it-
upon pages respected, high honoured, and purified,
by the hands of scribes, noble, pious."
( chaper 80, he frowned, verses 11, 12)

"nay, but it is a glorious koran,
in a tablet, guarded!"
( chapter 85, constellations, verses 21, 22)

"No! i swear by the falling of the stars,
- and that is indeed a mighty oath, did you know about it-
It is surely a noble koran, in a safe book,
which none but purified shal touch."
(chapter 56, the terror, verses 77, 78, 79 )

"A messenger from god,
reciting pages purified,
there in true books!"
(chapter 98, the clear sign, verses 2, 3)

this has negated any chance of koran being written or compiled AFTER prophet mohammad.
if a seperate thread is started, i would also give supportive evidences from hadith. ( for those who prefer to believe more in hadith and less in koran)

secondly, after what i have posted, there was NO doubt whatsoever, that ahmedis believe in the completeion and purity of koran. and any such sunni "scholar" who continues to argue, must be kicked out of the thread.

i hope that the discussion would be kept rotating around the real subject from now on, and i would definitely like the moderator, if he feels it necessary, to start new threads himself, and shift the unwantd discussions to them.

as for stud's second question:

" every single person, whom my preaching have reached, even if he is a muslim, but does not accept me as his hakam, and does not accept me as the promised messiah, is answerable in heavens, because he rejected what he had to believe in his times."
( the gift of nadwah, page 4)

enough cries were raised upon hearing this. please ask the sunni scholars, as to what is the status of those who do not believe in THIER messiah?

there messiah is to brutally murder anyone who is not a believer!
wow!
what a religion!

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jewels said,

enough cries were raised upon hearing this. please ask the sunni scholars, as to what is the status of those who do not believe in THIER messiah?

there messiah is to brutally murder anyone who is not a believer!
wow!
what a religion! <

Well if you are talking about Mehdi/Jesus (AS), then according to the hadiths, they'll come near a time of great war between two sides. Unless it's a movie, people do get killed in a war.

If you are talking about apostacy, that's a different (and I must say, a widely misunderstood) issue and it's another debate.

Regards.

[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 14, 1999).]

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Stud asked for yes, no answer of Q #1

The answer is no

I have replied to the issue of Nasikh and Mansookh in the thread by deepblue and I don’t feel it necessary to discuss it here.

MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]

Homepages
mirzayasir.paklinks.com
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This is a message board which I created. Here you can post your diseases along with your symptoms and get a homeopathic prescription in 2-3 days. Its Free! Its amazing! Try it.
http://mirzahomeomain.paklinks.com

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So Now we are making some progress.
The Ahmedis do not Beleive that some Ayats are missing from the Quran.
As they have testified here with references they do beleive that the Quran is complete.

POINT #1 IS RESOLVED.

Stud

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The Ahmadi position can be addressed very easily by looking at their beliefs and quoting directly from their books. Unfortunately the last time I did that, I was banned from another Forum despite no bad language and providing references for my quotes. Needless to say, people with opposing opinion were allowed to continue with teir own diatribes against orthodox Muslims, and this included abusive language (Ulema are Donkeys). What is the situation on this Forum? Can we speak freely or is there likely to be censorship? If there is then I won't waste my time or yours and let's leave the topic.