Abrogation in the Quran

Face Down!

I try my hardest not to get too deep on this Forum, but for the likes of you I will make an exception.

Firstly, as you do not understand the Synopsis of Contents of tha Qur'aan and it's ayats, the Arabic language and plain English. I will take this opportunity to take you to school, once again!

The first ayat I quoted:

002.023 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

was revealed in Madinah to convince the Non-Believers and opponents of Islam that the Qur'aan is a revealed Book, inimitable and matchless in it's literary exellence and subject matter. A challenge is given to the whole of mankind to produce just ONE Surah like that of the Qur'aan. The challenge is also repeated in 4 seperate Chapters of the Qur'aan. Also, bear in mind that the shortest Surah is only 4 short lines and goes like this:

112.001 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

112.002 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

112.004 And there is none like unto Him.

The baffling aspect of your statements is the plain denial of the challenge:

Face states

"Produce a sura like thereunto".
I am sorry but does this verse say that a mortal cannot write verses or book like the quran:

Then what does it mean?

As a matter of fact you can take up the challenge and produce just 4 short sentences! Furthermore, why on earth has your eminent Scholars from both the Jewish and Christian Faiths been trying for 1400 years to beat this challenge! If you don't believe me, just check history and see how many feeble attempts have been made!! Surely, if as you state that this does not mean mortals cannot write a book like the Qur'aan, then the Scholars have been wrong for 1400 years trying and you are right for 2 days for not trying.

Nevertheless, the gauntlet has been laid and the ball is now in your court to prove that mortals CAN compile a book like that of the Qur'aan! so we expect to review your works very soon!!!!

The second ayat I quoted:

010.037 This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

was revealed in Mecca during the last stage of the Prophets PBUH stay there. The actual Surah deals with the Proofs of Doctrine of Tawheed, Truthfulness of the Qur'aan as the Final Book, Truthfulness of the Prophethood of Mohammed PBUH, Life after Death, Man and his temperamental characteristics and his reaction to Divine guidance and The righteous deeds of other Prophets.

In ayat 31-36, proofs are offered of the Unity of Allah as being the Lord, the Sustainer and as the Creator of the Universe. Then it is adduced that it is Allah alone who guides to the Truth.

In ayat 37-41, further proofs are offered of the truthfulness of the Qur'aan and that of the Prophethood of Mohammed PBUH. So please read and digest the Context of any statements b4 jumping to 'on the spot' conclusions.

I've given you a brief history concerning the ayats, which you might find difficult to comprehend. But being the kind person that I am, I will speak terminology that even you can understand:

Produce 4 Short Lines Like That of The Qur'aan!!!!!!!!

The easiest way to cop out, is to deny the facts!

Take your pick.

Sholay,

I stand by with my previous statements.

And, I do not expect you to do anything other than protect a book that belongs in the library archives section.

And, why must you post more verses which makes zero sense except for, maybe, ORNAMENTATION purpose.

[This message has been edited by faceup (edited April 20, 2002).]

Face Up (Down)

Such a shame that you have decided to opt out of the lessons I was about to teach you. Nevertheless, which one is it:

The Cop Out, or

The Masterpiece!

Like I said b4.

Take a pick!!

Not even a single word or even an alphabet of Quran is Abrogated.

Those who believe that some verses are, only do it to make their own version of interpretations seem the valid ones and the problem is with their understanding of the teaching, not with the verses of Quran. Allah disqualify their claim in the very beginning of the Quran.

[Al-Bakarah: Verse 2] This is a perfect Book; **there is no doubt in it*; it is a guidance for the righteous, *

Beautiful verse! So, those who think certain verses make *doubts *& should be abrogated need to better their own limited understanding of Islam & Quran.

[quote]
per ahnedjee:
[Al-Bakarah: Verse 2] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[/quote]

1) What does the perfect book say about:
women
non muslims ?

If what the book says about women & non muslims is 'perfect' then something is wrong with you.

2) Can you prove that Islam as it stands today is based on "no compulsion in religion"? Or, is it a lie?

It should say " Islam is all about compulsion."

Again, all you have to do is look around before you let your fingers do the talking.

Pls NOTE:
**I am not interested in long copy & paste or interested in your fanatical love for a dogma.

Make your points in a couple of paragraph -preferably written from own experience & in own words.**

Face Down

Maybe if you took up the challenge of the Qur'aan in your own words and experience. Some other Guppies may follow suit concerning cut'n'pastes!

In the meantime you can keep barking at the apple tree hoping for the apple to fall down, whilst the rest of us simply go down to the local supermarket and buy one!

See Ya, Cuz I Wouldn't Wanna Be Ya!!( most assuredly)

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** 1) What does the perfect book say about:
women
non muslims ?

If what the book says about women & non muslims is 'perfect' then something is wrong with you.

2) Can you prove that Islam as it stands today is based on "no compulsion in religion"? Or, is it a lie?

It should say " Islam is all about compulsion."

Again, all you have to do is look around before you let your fingers do the talking.

Pls NOTE:
**I am not interested in long copy & paste or interested in your fanatical love for a dogma.

Make your points in a couple of paragraph -preferably written from own experience & in own words.****
[/quote]

So faceup whats ur point? that Quran is a man made book??

Reza, actually Faceup is using current sad state of MUSLIMS to exploit his/her hate for Islam and followers of ISLAM.

It is not a question of islamphobia or anything.

For a dogma to have produced such people with so much hate & violence; so many conflicts with not just their own but with every tom, ram & chen that it should call it a day and go jump off a cliff.

If the previous question was a bit hard for you three; here's an easier one:

How does the 'perfect book' explain:
1)Earth
2)Sun
3)Sky
4)Stars
5)Mountains

You know your geography - don't you?
Let's see if the Creator of 'the Book' does?

OK u tell us what Allah says in a seperate new post about the above.

[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited April 20, 2002).]

faceup,

It actually does, at times in great details. But then you are not looking for details in the first place.

But if you are really interested, I suggest you read:

**Note from Moderator: Please do not use this site to advertise and sell literature.

Sentinel.**

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited April 21, 2002).]

We aim to please: http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004094.html

Dear ahmedjee:
I was looking for couple para in own words and own experience rather you forward me to links.

There are many links that speaks about a Tolerant Islam that doesn’t EXIST and cannot EXIST if you use the literal (word per word) interpetation of quran & sunnah.

Religion like anything else is moulded in our image. And, what an Image!

Can we please take the discussion about Quran being a perfect book to another thread!

Heres what a lady told me on the subject of abrogation:

*2:62 AND 5:69 mentioned in the Qur'aan should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbaas (Tafsir At-Tabari Vol. 1, Page 323) that the provision of this verse was abrograted by the verse 3:85
*

al-Baqarah 2:62.19] Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

[al-Ma'idah 5:69.13] Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

[Al-Imran 3:85] And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

[quote]
Originally posted by aishaA:
*Can we please take the discussion about Quran being a perfect book to another thread!
*

[/quote]

In the topic of Abrogation the issue of Perfection or Imperfection cannot be ignored.

[quote]

Heres what a lady told me on the subject of abrogation:

*2:62 AND 5:69 mentioned in the Qur'aan should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbaas (Tafsir At-Tabari Vol. 1, Page 323) that the provision of this verse was abrograted by the verse 3:85
*

[/quote]

Matters of controversy are open to may opinions and the Quran is a Controversial document.

[quote]
Originally posted by aishaA:
**Heres what a lady told me on the subject of abrogation:

*2:62 AND 5:69 mentioned in the Qur'aan should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbaas (Tafsir At-Tabari Vol. 1, Page 323) that the provision of this verse was abrograted by the verse 3:85
*

al-Baqarah 2:62.19] Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

[al-Ma'idah 5:69.13] Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

[Al-Imran 3:85] And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

**
[/quote]

[Al-Imran 3:85] that you have quote above should always be read in conjunction with [Al-Imran 3:84]:

Translation: Yusufali
[Al-Imran 3:84] Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Sura 3:85 alone is a recipe for abuse & misinformation.

Face Down

Cut the crap and get on with the Challenge!!

Face up if u think that muslims follow Quran blindly, then what do u say about, jinnat studyiing Quran from my Great Grand father. u might think that they dont exist thinking that Quran is false, my most of the family used to live with them. What do u say about jinns then? Are they false too?

Reza Khan,

All religious books incl quran is what people make it to be, regardless of it being Divine or Created.

The muslims have made quran into an instrument of oppression & terror and as such the 'book' has been discredited in the eyes of people who are not blind and can question.

Can u question about the jins which people from my family have lived with, talked with, and taught Quran. Atheists, Non believers in Quran dont believe in ghost/jinns as well or do they?? If they do then what do say about the jinns reciting Quran?? Plz answer my question.