Re: Ability to forgive: Why Vietnam is better than Pakistan
our cultural, social and religious reasoning for disliking a particular political or military movement is not open to discussion.
if america wants love, they know how to get it from the muslim world. thats if they wanted it, of course
.... if america wants love, they know how to get it from the muslim world. thats if they wanted it, of course
I think Americans do get love from civilized Muslims and Muslim rulers.
The problem they have is with bunch of uncouth poverty stricken illiterate tribals.
Re: Ability to forgive: Why Vietnam is better than Pakistan
I answer burqaposhx about why Vietnam ...and why not Pakistan...
That is because Vietnam is a ntural state existing for the welfare and needs of its people...Pakistan on the other hand has been founded on the basis of religion and is assumed to attain some grand divine end...which is an irrational justification for the existance of a state...
by the way ability to forgive is a consequence not a cause...it is the vision that is primary and defines other things... ...Vietnam exists for a worldy vision and Pakistan for a divinely vision...so Pakistan doesn't forgive the infidel adversaries like India, US, etc. and considers it a religious responsibility to elarge the sphere of the divine rule e.g. in Kashmir, Bosnia, Chechniya, Afghanistan, Bangla Desh, etc.
Re: Ability to forgive: Why Vietnam is better than Pakistan
i think vietnam learnt lesson from the war and losses but pakistan is different case
because pakistan never learnt any lesson from anything even losing half of it.
bangla deshs economy is far better than pakistan
pakistan needs real revolution really democratically elected government with fully independent judiciar
it is really sad at the moment zardari president and bilawal will be prime minister
I answer burqaposhx about why Vietnam ...and why not Pakistan...
That is because Vietnam is a ntural state existing for the welfare and needs of its people...Pakistan on the other hand has been founded on the basis religion and is assumed to attain some divine goal...which is an irrational justification for the existance of a state...
vietnamese identity was actually forged on what can arguably be called a religious belief i.e. the early kings of the Nam Viet were descended from gods, who took a golden hue when the chinese gained ascendancy. there were obviously many cultural overlaps with neighbouring areas of china. what forged vietnam into a separate country and kept it from being subsumed by a larger country wasnt ethnicity, but a religious belief.
you can liken it to neighbouring provinces in the subcontinent having their respective myths about their rulers.
vietnamese identity was actually forged on what can arguably be called a religious basis i.e. the early kings ruling them were descended from gods. there were obviously many cultural overlaps with neighbouring areas of china. what forged vietnam into a separate country and kept it from being subsumed by a larger country wasnt ethnicity, but a religious belief.
yes that may be the mythical beginning of the ruling lineage and its divine right to rule, which doesn't mean gods wanted Vietnam to exists for some holy purpose..
...vietnamese identity is this worldly and natural and which provides a ground for a state...Besides Vietname is a distinct ethnicity, culture, and language which provides the actual basis for the state...reilgion is overlapping with the neighbouring states and unable to distinct Vietnamese id from others...
yes that may be the mythical beginning of the ruling lineage and its divine right to rule, which doesn't mean gods wanted Vietnam to exists for some holy purpose..
thats a red herring. we're not talking about the truth value of whatever beliefs they held about their rulers, but whether or not there was religious basis for their identity.
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...vietnamese identity is this worldly and natural and which provides a ground for a state...Besides Vietname is a distinct ethnicity, culture, and language which provides the actual basis for the state...reilgion is overlapping with the neighbouring states and unable to distinct Vietnamese id from others...
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only because over time the distinct identity evolved in a seperate direction. at the outset there was very little ethnic, cultural or language difference between Nam Viet kingdom and the neighbouring areas under chinese control.
no reason to say that today's Pakistan isnt comparable to the Nam Viet kingdom (which also had a religious/divine basis for existence, and also had a mix of ethnicities as in any south east asian region)
thats a red herring. we're not talking about the truth value of whatever beliefs they held about their rulers, but whether or not there was religious basis for their identity.
only because over time the distinct identity evolved in a seperate direction. at the outset there was very little ethnic, cultural or language difference between Nam Viet kingdom and the neighbouring areas under chinese control.
no reason to say that today's Pakistan isnt comparable to the Nam Viet kingdom (which also had a religious/divine basis for existence, and also had a mix of ethnicities as in any south east asian region)
ravage, almost all ancient countries have dynasties that ruled on the basis of divine right to rule...but that is something mythical different from "Historical"...almost every natural identity (e.g. ethnicities) has some kind of mythical notion about its beginning...(who was the first person that was Sindhi...no one can answer this question so the need for a myth...)...
Unfortunately Pakistani identity is historical (not evolved and not originated out of myth...) ....every body knows on Aug 14, 1947 people suddenly became Pakistanis...and that is the cause of its artificiality and short-livedness...just a surface change that everybody remembers. and knows..
Re: Ability to forgive: Why Vietnam is better than Pakistan
lets stick with the vietnamese shall we. its quite possible to answer who the first vietnamese were, i.e. beginning with the first king of nam viet. and those kings were ascribed divine lineage. as you note thats quite common in ancient cultures, but it nevertheless served to differentiate them from their neighbours when the neighbours, with areas containing a similar demographic of people, subsumed them.
as for everyone knowing when Pakistan began, Im sure thats just because we're closer to the starting date.
as for everyone knowing when Pakistan began, Im sure thats just because we're closer to the starting date.
that is the point...the emergence/development of a HISTORICAL identity can be chronologically re-contructed because it is in the known memory...any identity that isn't embodied in culture is only ephemeral...
...the development of MYTHICAL identity being evolved cannot be chronologically re-consructed to the first originator....the actual embodiment of identity in this case actually is in common culture, language, folklore, etc. (because myth is just a myth)...that is why imythical id is more profound and deeply seated in people syche, subconsciousness, intinctive responses, social protocols, ...and that is why it is more stable and lasting...
i've looked into vietnamese who are 85% ...that is why vietname is a stable geopolitical entity...a true nation-state...
that is the point...the emergence/development of a HISTORICAL identity can be chronologically re-contructed because it is in the known memory...any identity that isn't embodied in culture is only ephemeral...
...the development of MYTHICAL identity being evolved cannot be chronologically re-consructed to the first originator....the actual embodiment of identity in this case actually is in common culture, language, folklore, etc. (because myth is just a myth)...that is why imythical id is more profound and deeply seated in people syche, subconsciousness, intinctive responses, social protocols, ...and that is why it is more stable and lasting...
i've looked into vietnamese who are 85% ...that is why vietname is a stable geopolitical entity...a true nation-state...
we're not tlking bout the same vietnam. i speak of the original people, you speak of the country as it exists now. i speak of how the identity was forged (a sense of seperation based on the initial kingdom ascribed divine origin) and say its religious nature is comparable to the religious distinction of a multicultural pakistan against its diverse neighbour with a substantial overlap of culture.
give pakistan a few centuries, and you'll see a distinctly different culture emerge.
..... a HISTORICAL identity can be chronologically re-contructed because it is in the known memory........
Forgiveness has nothing to do with Historical identity. Forgiveness and tolerance comes from being civilized and being aware of your surroundings.
So let's not drag this thread into ethnic or religious crap.
Muslim Sufia karam and modern day Dali lama have one thing in common. They both emphasize on improving your self and your awareness.
No wonder Muslim Sufia Karam earned respect from all sorts of different religions.
Pakistanis need to find their true core values that were taught by the Sufia karam and thus learn to be humble, and tolerant. That's all.
If we do not change our ways, if we do not become humble and tolerant, we'll soon be a ditto copy of Afghanis and Islamic Emriate of Afghanistan regardless of Historical or non-Historical identity fraud.
p.s. funny that people who talk about ethnic or religious identities are living in the Western melting pots. They all know that in 3 or 4 generations they will be either mainstream citizens in the US or UK or living in asian or black ghettos.