A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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There have been many threads in the past regarding the Friday sermons in the mosques and guppies have time and again discussed and debated the importance or lets say relevance/irrelevance of some issues that ultimately find a place for one reason or another in the weekly sermons.
I was just contemplating over that issue and came across this interesting news item. I really appreciate the enthusiasm ( vociferous criticism) of our fire brand clerics (pseudo-politicians) when I see and hear them speak on various issues. I guess ( infact I am sure) they have a large fan following of people willing to say labaik on just one nod. They can agitate and protest and bring such issues to the fore as well as to the mosque with much ease, depending on whats at stake. Why can’t they take up social issues and discuss that in the friday sermons?? why is it that the crime against honors, cleanliness drive, population control ever find their way in such educational and thought provoking sessions that have an impact on many muslims across the country??

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-1-2005_pg1_8

MMA asks clerics to raise uniform issue during Friday sermons

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD: Leaders of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) have asked clerics to raise the issue of the president’s uniform during their Friday sermons, Liaqat Baloch, the MMA deputy secretary general, told Daily Times.

He said maulvis would highlight the fact that the president had promised the nation that he would leave the office of chief of army staff by December 31, 2004. He said the clerics would also condemn the pro-US and anti-Islam policies of General Musharraf.

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Re: A world beyong politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Minerva: Excellent post. My two cents behind the politcal fusion in sermons. We all know that initially sermons were used to talk social issues, etc. How ever it was the Turks that incorporated the politics. Here's waht happened, when Turks went on to increase their rling land mass. They realized that certain ethnic groups regions could not be governed by turks, so they hired local help. However due to paranoia that locals might turn against them they decided to use the sermons to send their message from Instanbul or Ankara ( the old ottomon empire capital). This way they could control the general populations thoughts and emotions. Well that fusion stayed with us.
Source: History of the World by JM roberts (excellent book)

On the same toke recently I have heard about having registered mullahs and centralizing sermons et all, this will be politicized by our MMA type dudes as no free speech". I hope General Sahib can put his foot on the ground and make that happen. I am a firm believer that if sermons can be centralized, within a few years Pakistanis will change their opinions and out look on others. Remember the buring of American embassy in Zia's times, it was invoked by the puplit.

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Re: A world beyong politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Instead of wishing for freeing the mosques and Mullahs from biases and political influences you want the govt to control Clerics and Sermons? That is absurd.

User sermons to bring about political awareness and awareness of issues and solutions not to promote anti-govt or pro-govt agendas... Educate people to make sound and educated decisions don't brain wash them on what decisions to make.

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Re: A world beyong politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

aside from what verizon has mentioned, one big issue is that how can you expect people to talk about something they hae no clue on, how can they give advise when they have no basis.

Here is a true story, In one of the mid sized cities in US, the imam was a saudi import and was your typical saudi import imam, the worshippers at the masjid were not happy with the one track mindset and decided to replace him, of course the supporters of this guy opposed and in the end in a democratic decision making the guy was sent packing.

Now they have a young imam, US born and raised, someone who went to university and got a masters, in addition to his formal religious education (btw most run of the mill mullahs dont really even have some sort of structured formal religious education) He is younger than most of the regulars but has changed the entire atmosphere..

The khutbas are on topics of interest to different age groups and covering issues they face in every day life. He has afternoon sessions with the teenage guys one the basketball court, where they talk and play, not a lecture mind you..a discussion as they shoot hoops.

These teenagers relate to him, because he speaks their language, knows what they face..has built a rapport, same goes for college students and professionals.

So, going back..how do you really expect some barely primary educated guy who has gone thru unregulated and thus nonstandardized religious education to do anything different than repeating the same thing that he knows.

and just because someone has studied something does not make them a good educator or guide, a counselor and advisor.

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Re: A world beyong politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Chachoo Ji:I am being realistic hence govt controlled. If you want my opinion promise me that you won’t get me banned and I’ll share my views. :smiley:
But let me see if I can put my view without getting into trouble. The problem is that you will never be able to free mosques from fiery brand mullahs till the government takes a firm hand approach. This is in part due to the ideology of Pakistan. As long as pakistan has Islamic republic associated with it the mullah issue will remain. The people of pakistan are partially to blame as well cause they stickup for these firery brands. By gov’t controlling it you can slowly and gradually start to penetrate the mullah circle and eventually over-ride their hate filled thought injections with milder injection that provoke thought on social and other issues demanding public awareness.

I wish you could but you CANNOT just wipe mullahs and mosques overnight (Kamal Ata turk model won’t work due to human rights and others touting democracy in the region). As long as we are thinking wishfully I wish that pakistan lift the alcohol ban (I really enjoy a Guiness Stout in a frozen glass with my dinner). It can be done but that will require listening to the whole world music after wiping mullahs off Pakistan. If Pakistan is ready I got a spot for them in a stadium in Kabul.
Mr Frauddia: If you ever get a chance rent this movie “Mass Appeal” starring Jack Lemmon. It will remind you of what happened in your mosque with the replacement mohlvi. Not trying to sell you my taste of movies but one of my all time favorites.

Edit: Added this as anafter thought:
Changes are coming in PK. In spet I was in Pakistan and my Bro-in-law told me that he stopped going to mosque A (he had been going their for good 20yrs) because the sermons were getting a bit too fiery for him and he didn’t want my nephews to listen to them. He in this case switched to a mosque with a milder sermon.

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Re: A world beyong politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

[quote]
Chachoo Ji:I am being realistic hence govt controlled. If you want my opinion promise me that you won't get me banned and I'll share my views.
[/quote]

You are free to share your views as long as you observe GS policies and keep the respect element in your posts for others, their beliefs, and views.

As far as “being realistic hence govt. controlled” is the mentality of defeated and brain washed subject of a nation where govt. controls how people should be think and act.

[quote]
But let me see if I can put my view without getting into trouble. The problem is that you will never be able to free mosques from fiery brand mullahs till the government takes a firm hand approach. This is in part due to the ideology of Pakistan. As long as pakistan has Islamic republic associated with it the mullah issue will remain. The people of pakistan are partially to blame as well cause they stickup for these firery brands. By gov't controlling it you can slowly and gradually start to penetrate the mullah circle and eventually over-ride their hate filled thought injections with milder injection that provoke thought on social and other issues demanding public awareness.
[/quote]

By all means bring about awareness to speak out on issues covering social, religious, cultural or what ever aspects and do that in fiery speeches. Nothing wrong with fiery speeches if you feel passionate about the subject that you are talking about. Govt. needs to stay out of this, it should be neutral.

Pakistan’s was based on an ideology and that ideology is very much part of this nation and nothing wrong with it. If people want Mullahs they shall get Mullahs who are you or anyone else to tell them that they can’t have Mullahs. Mullahs have been made the escape goat for every thing wrong with this country. Wake-up and look around and use your awareness and education to come-up with better root-causes of your social and cultural issues.

[quote]
I wish you could but you CANNOT just wipe mullahs and mosques overnight (Kamal Ata turk model won't work due to human rights and others touting democracy in the region). As long as we are thinking wishfully I wish that pakistan lift the alcohol ban (I really enjoy a Guiness Stout in a frozen glass with my dinner). It can be done but that will require listening to the whole world music after wiping mullahs off Pakistan. If Pakistan is ready I got a spot for them in a stadium in Kabul.
[/quote]

Pakistan is an Islamic sate, may be a weak one and misguided one, but InshaAllah it will remain one by grace of Allah (SWT) it will get better and alcohol will remain banned like many other things that should be banned and are not. If people choose to make an Islamic state and want to live by Islamic laws then more power to them.

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Re: A world beyong politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

As far as “being realistic hence govt. controlled” is the mentality of defeated and brain washed subject of a nation where govt. controls how people should be think and act.
Till Pakistan acheives a literacy rates comparable to other develponed nations people will need guidance. RIght now the guidance they get is from Mullahs that lead them blindly to the wonderful Jihad in afghanistan. Yeah I agree with you, people are free to choose but nothing wrong with guiding them and helping them in sincerity(neutral govt), vs taking advantage (Mullahs).
People want Mullahs they will get Mullahs
Sure last time I saw the elections in pakistan the so called Mullahs were extorting votes out of citizens, how: By telling the voters to vote for the Book (Quran as the symbol) and they will goto heavan on election day and that it is suVab to check the QUraan on election day. If People want Mullah I have no problem, lets learn from France where they've had socialist govt's but chosen democratically. So if Mullahs can learn to play nice why not. But Chacho Ji you know playing nice doesn't mean packing up a stadium like gladiators and shooting women in the back of the heads.
Pakistan’s was based on an ideology and that ideology is very much part of this nation and nothing wrong with it.
The ideology is weak and does not represent citizenry it represents Muslims. In this day and age and especially with globalizaton where the geographical borders are diminishing Pakistan....err.. excuse me..... Islamic Republic of Pakistan better be able to treat all peole fairly and without prejudice regardless of religion and currently the track record in this field is piss poor.
If people want Mullahs they shall get Mullahs who are you or anyone else to tell them that they can’t have Mullahs. Mullahs have been made the escape goat for every thing wrong with this country. Wake-up and look around and use your awareness and education to come-up with better root-causes of your social and cultural issues
Seems like someone got crashed and burnt. And NO I don't need to wake-up, I think you need to do an Istikhra and figure out what Allah (swt) really wants out of Pakistan. Last time I did I got the response of 'get rid of Mullahs'. Under the Islamic Ummah and Sharia, what I heard so far is not positive and primitive at best. Sharia and Ummah will lead the country backwards not forward. The moment "Islamic" is introduced into a state it implies discrimination against non-muslim constituents. Because if the intentions are pure then no need to signify. BTW Quiad-e-Azam didnt want an islamic state. I qouted one of his speeches in one of my previous posts (search for it)where he plainly states people from all religions are free to practice their own religion freely.
If people choose to make an Islamic state and want to live by Islamic laws then more power to them. Using the same standards if the people want a state (minus the islamic) then more power to them as well.
:)

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Do people go to mosque to offer prayers or listen to political bulshyt? What Mullahs are dreaming is to get into power by using Mosques, that in it’s own is the biggest disrespect to a place of worship. And those who think that it is OK to have politicized sermons to be given in Mosques are brainwashed dumb idiots. How would they feel if the opposing politicized views are discussed in sermons, e.g., a Mulla who favors a separation of governance from religion? Would that be OK?

:salam:

:jhanda:

:bism:

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

yup…that wud be okay…only he wudn’t say that cuz smartass that wud imply no more politcal sermons in future by him…:smack:

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Yeah its OK

And yes its happening too.

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Till Pakistan acheives a literacy rates comparable to other develponed nations people will need guidance. RIght now the guidance they get is from Mullahs that lead them blindly to the wonderful Jihad in afghanistan. Yeah I agree with you, people are free to choose but nothing wrong with guiding them and helping them in sincerity(neutral govt), vs taking advantage (Mullahs).

More than literacy they need awareness and I agree literacy can bring about awareness. Brainwashing by the government to stay in power is not exactly defined as “guidance” in my book. Neutral government, someone’s behind !!! You got to be kidding me.

*Sure last time I saw the elections in pakistan the so called Mullahs were extorting votes out of citizens, how: By telling the voters to vote for the Book (Quran as the symbol) and they will goto heavan on election day and that it is suVab to check the QUraan on election day. If People want Mullah I have no problem, lets learn from France where they've had socialist govt's but chosen democratically. So if Mullahs can learn to play nice why not. But Chacho Ji you know playing nice doesn't mean packing up a stadium like gladiators and shooting women in the back of the heads. *

Don’t take the western media approach and paint all Mullah’s and Muslim leaders with the same brush. How many Mullahs and Muslim leaders condoned the gladiator actions that you keep on bringing up? It is like taking Hitler’s example and painting the whole of west with the same brush.

*The ideology is weak and does not represent citizenry it represents Muslims. In this day and age and especially with globalizaton where the geographical borders are diminishing Pakistan....err.. excuse me..... Islamic Republic of Pakistan better be able to treat all peole fairly and without prejudice regardless of religion and currently the track record in this field is piss poor. *

Ideology is not weak the politicians, yes not just Mullahs, have used the religion card and are still using it to manipulate the majority, which happened to be Muslims. So instead of eliminating the trick that they use eliminate those corrupt users. You take one thing away from them they will find another one.

Seems like someone got crashed and burnt. And NO I don't need to wake-up, I think you need to do an Istikhra and figure out what Allah (swt) really wants out of Pakistan. Last time I did I got the response of 'get rid of Mullahs'. Under the Islamic Ummah and Sharia, what I heard so far is not positive and primitive at best. Sharia and Ummah will lead the country backwards not forward. The moment "Islamic" is introduced into a state it implies discrimination against non-muslim constituents. Because if the intentions are pure then no need to signify. BTW Quiad-e-Azam didnt want an islamic state. I qouted one of his speeches in one of my previous posts (search for it)where he plainly states people from all religions are free to practice their own religion freely.

So who is saying it is a state just for Muslims? What Qaid said stands and I hope gets implemented in its true sense. In the speech that you have quoted he does not say get rid of Mullahs and Islamic Ideology unless it in the invisible font that I can’t read. I am not proposing implementation of Sharia. No one knows or agrees upon what that is anymore so how can even one begin to implement it. Not everyone who opposes Mushy and the secular ideas is promoting Jihad, Gladiator glory, and implementation of half baked Sharia. Hence I asked you to wake-up and put your biases aside.

*Using the same standards if the people want a state (minus the islamic) then more power to them as well. *
Implement true democracy not military rule and let people decide.

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

The Mullahs that you talk about are no different from other politicians and military rulers, they are all “Iqtidar kay Bhokay” and for good reasons. Look at the “khush haali” it brings to them and the ones around them. Others make a mockery of the democratic system and political system along with public institutions and some Mullahs do that with mosques… the whole leadership is in the same boat. Avay ka ava hi bigra huwa hai.

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Chachoo If I read your post right, you sort of agree with me, you just have issues with how I come across. I was thrilled to find out that you don't propose implementing sharia. I have a question:
Not everyone who opposes Mushy and the secular ideas is promoting Jihad, Gladiator glory, and implementation of half baked Sharia. Hence I asked you to wake-up and put your biases aside.
What are you proposing?

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

Simple… true democratic system where leaders are picked by the people and they are held accountable by the very people who send them to these offices… on issues where there is a diff of opinion hold a referendum, let people decide what they want.

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Re: A world beyond politics__Friday sermons and our clerics

And isn't this what Mushie has offered? Except being the self proclaimed messiah (El-Presidente)

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Really, when? I must have missed the news bulletin .... what he has offered so far is lip service and promises that are yet to be realized... sad part is don't even see an effort being made on his part to head in that direction... that is why it is scary that he is strengthening his position at the cost of the nation's security..