Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
ravage..would you respect the person who slammed the door on Prophet Mohummads (pbuh&up) daughter Bibi Fatima (a.s.) and She had a miscarriage because of it and also died...she was not even 20 years of age
its just a simple question...thats where i will start this
p.s. this is in sunni books and they all believe it as well
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
That is the key to your post.
Thank You, Come Again.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
'bark like you always do'? whats going on here?
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
what? kafi was written by someone at the same status as the Ayatullah, not more. IMO a lot of kafi is crap, and has been rejected by later ulema.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
Ravage- Sheraz-CT does that a lot as you can see from hii lattest reply.
Sheraz-CT - The topic is clear, you need to learn how to read. You made a point which was false, and I corrected you. Now if you don't have any proper answer to that. Don't start the jaahil crap again. And my boy, it is quite clear who derails threads to save his ass. Now come up with proper replies, or keep your mouth shut.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
My point exactly :).
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
Mirza, I've pretty much addressed all the points that you've raised. shias do not have any problem with the idea of any given hadees being false. the guarantee of unchangeability is only given to the Quran, no other book, and any hadith must be taken as true only if it doesnt contradict the Quran.
and posting snippets of my sentences is a very low, intellectually dishonest harkat. kindly desist, and quote the whole sentence if you want.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
ravage - Most shias still do believe this stuff (Sheraz-CT being an example), but never mind that. Tell me how cussing the sahabas can be justified from the Quran? Please and Thank You.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
i agree sheraz. its a pity he scoured the internet for so many references only to get this one line in response.
no mirza, most shias believe what I believe. and 60 percent of shias havent ever opened or seen kafi, while pretty much every shia reads the Quran.
now, this is my personal belief. i dont think we should give galiyan to anyone, including sahaba regardless of their aamaal. nevertheless, believing that certain people were evil because of their actions, why is that bad, even if those people were sahaba?
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
Sheraz, if there was such an injustice by a person, then why didn’t Hazarat Ali react to it. I believe that he was one of the most learned and just people around after the Holy Prophet.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
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ravage - It is sad that the shais claiming what they did, can not come up witha better answer than to just ignore the books. Subhanallah
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nobody is ignoring the books. ahadith are a valuable source for explaining the text of the Quran. if an explanation contradicts that text then its discarded.
[quote]
Sheraz, if there was such an injustice by a person, then why didn’t Hazarat Ali react to it. I believe that he was one of the most learned and just people around after the Holy Prophet.
[/quote]
have you read Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung. by all accounts, shia and sunni, there was quite a protracted dispute after the prophet's death.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
ravage - You beleive it is okay to insult the Prophet's companions?
The Prophet (PBUH) said "Whoever abuses my Companions, upon them is the curse of Allah, the Angles and all the people" (Saheeh, At-Tabaranee)
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
Just like this reply of yours contradicts your previous one, and so it should be discarded.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
Sheraz-CT - You still haven't given any authentic proof for this. It is just all coming out of your ass right now.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
ravage..read the book peshawar nights..i just ordered it online and its pretty interesting..here is something from the book:
Ibn Hajar writes in his Fathu'l-Bari, v.X, p.30, that Abu Talha Zaid Bin Sahl arranged a wine party at his house and invited ten people. All of them drank wine and Abu Bakr recited some couplets commemorating some infidels who were killed in the battle of Badr.
Nawab: Have the names of the guests also been mentioned? If so, please let us know.
Well-Wisher: (1) Abu Bakr Bin Abi Qahafa, (2) Umar Ibn Khattab, (3) Abu Ubaida Garra, (4) Ubai Bin Ka'b, (5) Sahl Bin Baiza, (6) Abu Ayyub Ansari, (7) Abu Talha (the host), (8) Abu Dajjana Samak Bin Kharsa, (9) Abu Bakr Bin Shaghuls, (10) Anas Bin Malik, who was 18 years old at that time and who served the wine. Baihaqi in his Sunan, v. VIII, p.29, has also narrated from Anas him self that he said that he was the youngest of them at that time and was serving the wine. (At this there was great commotion in the meeting.)
Sheikh: I swear by Allah that this story has been concocted by the enemy!
Well-Wisher: You are too much agitated and you have made a profane oath! But you are not totally at fault. Your studies are limited. If you had read more widely, you would know that your own ulema have written all this. Now you should seek Allah's pardon.
I am now constrained to explain facts according to the statements of your own ulema. Muhammad Bin Isma'il Bukhari in Sahih (commenting on Ayat-e-Khamr, "verse concerning wine", in the chapter Ma'ida of the Qur'an); Muslim Ibn Hajar in his Sahih (Kitab-e-Ashraba Bab-e-Tahrimu'l-Khamr); Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal in his Musnad, v.XXX, p.181 and 227; Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir, v.XI, p.93; Jalalu'd-din Suyuti in his Durru'l-Mansur, v.II, p.321; Tabari in his Tafsir, v.VII, p.24; Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his Isaba, v.IV, p.22 and Fathu'l-Bari, v.X,p.30; Badru'd-din Hanafi in his Umdatu'l-Qari, V.X, p.84; Baihaqi in his Sunan, pp.286 and 290; and others have recorded these facts with detailed explanations.
Sheikh: Perhaps these things took place before wine was made unlawful.
Well-Wisher: What we gather from the commentary and history shows that even after the prohibitory verses some Muslims and companions continued taking forbidden wine.
Muhammad Bin Jarir Tabari reports in Tafsir-e-Kabir, v.II, p.203, on the authority of Abil Qamus Zaid Bin Ali, who said that Allah had revealed three times the verses prohibiting the use of wine. In the first verse He says, "They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit." (2:219)
But the Muslims did not immediately give up wine. When two men, being intoxicated, offered their prayers and talked nonsense, another verse was revealed, saying: "O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated until you know (well) what you say." (4:43)
Even after this, the drinking of wine continued, but people did not offer prayers while intoxicated. One day a man took wine (according to the report of Bazar, Ibn Hajar, and Ibn Mardawiyya the man was Abu Bakr) and composed an elegy for the pagans who were killed in the battle of Badr. When the Holy Prophet heard of this, he became angry. He went to the party and wanted to beat him. The man said, "I seek Allah's shelter from Allah's and His Prophet's wrath. Allah be my witness, I will not take wine again." Then the following verse was revealed: "O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (divination by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful." (5:90)
Among the companions of the Holy Prophet there were good and bad men just as there are among other believers and Muslims. Those of them who tried to obey Allah and His Prophet reached an exalted rank. Those who followed their worldly aspirations were looked down upon by others. So those who fault the worldly companions do so with some reason. The wicked actions of some of the sahaba which are recorded in the authentic books of your own ulema are also condemnable according to the evidence of the Holy Qur'an. The Shias condemn them on that basis. If there is a logical reply to this argument, we are ready to accept it.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
ofcourse this is a sunni hadith, and one from the lesser books (not bukhari/muslim). i think i can safely reject it.
particularly since Muawiyeh abused hazrat ali and i can cite references from Bukhari so its actually the sunnah of the companions.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
i try to be careful with what I say. please tell me where the contradiction lies, or edit your post like a good boy.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
ravage - Just like we can refuse to believe any shia reference on the incident Sheraz-CT is talking about. Which is clearly not backed by anything real.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
thats the thing mirza. when we talk we give references from sunni books. even this post that sheraz makes from the shia book is citing sunni references.
Re: A thread about Shias: as requested by Sheraz-CT
Sheraz, there is no way to prove/disprove this story and there is no way for us to asceratin for whom the verse was sent. That is why I say, my friend, let Allah be the judge, Why take risk of insulting Prophet:saw: companions when we cannot be certain of their intentions (remember only Allah knows intentions) and actions.