A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

So says Ameer Jamaat-e-Islami Munawwar Hussain, explaining the Islamist party’s reasons for opposing the women’s protection act. Prior to this bill, the Hudood ordinance meant that a woman who was raped, and could not produce four witnesses to prove the crime, would be imprisoned for Zina. More than 80% of women in Pakistan were imprisoned on this particular basis. Molvi sahab says that the law is designed to discourage public indecency. When pressed on what raped women should do if their rape wasnt in a public place (as most rapes arent) he says they should keep quiet, and to argue against that is to argue against the Quran and Sunnah.

So what do people who advocate Islamic law have to say on this particular point. Is molvi sahab correct on this?

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

this question does get banded about alot

afaik the zina conviction of a failed rape allegation is not procedure. it is when sex has taken place and it has transpired that the sex was concensual.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

From what I saw, the guy is a typical desi molvi who can't think for himself. Seems like he couldn't quite comprehend what the host was asking (or didn't want to) and kept regurgitating the same stuff about four witnesses. I'm pretty sure Islamic law allows for rape conviction with the presence of forensic evidence.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

So it needs to be proved that the sex was consensual? What about the other question, are you in favour of laws amending the hudood ordinance, as discussed in this clip.

Pretty sure on what basis? Hudood law has been defended as Islamic law, and a special bill, bashed as unislamic, had to be brought in order to address this particular problem.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

sorry but i couldnt bring myself to watch the clip, but i know the general perception

inshallah the following will provide you a better insight

THE REALITY OF WOMEN PROTECTION BILL 2006
by Justice (Retd) Muhammad Taqi Usmani

In the name of Allah the most merciful the most kind

The legal implications of the 'Protection of Women's
Rights Bill' which has recently been passed by the
National Assembly can only be known to the people who
are well versed with intricacies of the legal system.
But the picture being painted is that the bill is
going to provide a remedy to those women who faced
severe oppression due to the Hudood Ordinance and that
it is going to provide a great relief to countless
women. It is also being claimed that the bill does not
violate the injunctions of Quran and Sunnah. Let us
take a serious and realistic look at the basic points
mentioned in this bill. How much they are in line with
the claims being made. If we study the bill we would
arrive at the conclusion that the bill contains only
two substantive points: Firstly the punishment for
rape (zina bil jabar) as ordained by the Quran and
Sunnah which is called 'hadd' has been completely
abolished in this bill. As such a person who has
committed rape cannot be given the legal (sharai)
punishment and instead he will receive a ta'azeeri
punishment (anything below 'hadd'). Secondly the crime
which was declared a ta'azeeri punishment in the
Hudood Ordinance has been downgraded and declared
'lewdness', thereby reducing the severity of its
punishment. Moreover, proving it has been made all the
more difficult. To abolish the punishment of rape
(hadd) is a clear violation of the injunctions given
in the Quran and Sunnah. But it is being said that the
punishment ordained by the Quran and Sunnah is only
applicable when both man and woman commit adultery
with free will, and that in the case of rape Quran and
Sunnah have not prescribed any punishment.
Let us first test the correctness of this claim:

1) The Holy Quran prescribes the punishment of
adultery in Surah Noor as under
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one
of them (with) a hundred stripes. (24:2) In this
injunction the word zina is absolute and includes zina
birraza (adultery) as well as zina bil jabar (rape).
In fact it is common sense that rape is a more serious
offense than what is done with free will. Therefore,
when this punishment is prescribed for adultery with
free will, the punishment for rape should be even more
severe. Although in this injunction there is also
mention of the woman who commits adultery but in the
same surah (Noor) those woman are raped have been
exempted from any punishment. Therefore the Holy Quran
says:
'And if one force them (i.e. those women), then,
(unto them) after their compulsion, Allah is
Forgiving, Merciful.' (Surah Nur, Ayat 33)

From this becomes clear that if any woman is forced to
commit Zina, then she cannot be punished for this,
rather the one who transgressed will have to suffer
the prescribed punishment (Hadd) which has been
mentioned in Surah Nur, Ayat 2.

  1. The stated Hadd of 100 stripes is to be inflicted on an unmarried offender. From the Sunnah Mutawatar is further proven that a married person is to suffer Rajm i.e. lapidation in case he commits Zina. The Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam did, in this case not differentiate between Zina bil Jabr (rape) and Zina bir-Radha (adultery with mutual consent).

Sayyidina Wail bin Hajr radiallahu anhu narrated that
during the days of Allah's Messenger sallallahu alaihi
wa sallam a woman had gone out to offer the prayer. On
the way a man overcame and raped her. The woman cried
for help and the man ran away. Thereafter the man
admitted that he had raped her. The Messenger of Allah
sallallahu alaihi wa sallam then inflicted the Hadd on
the man only, and not on the woman.

Imam Tirmidhi related this Hadith in his Jami with two
different chains of transmission, and he declared the
second chain of transmission as reliable. (Jami
Tirmidhi, Kitabul Hadd, Bab 22, Hadith nr. 1453, 1454)

  1. In the Sahih Bukhari is a tradition according to which a slave had raped a slave-girl. Sayyidina Umar radiallahu anhu then imposed the Hadd on the slave, but not on the slave-girl. (Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Ikrah, Bab 6)

It is hence proven from the Holy Qur'an, the Sunnah of
Allah's Messenger sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, the
decisions of the rightly guided caliphs and the noble
companions radiallahu anhum that the same punishment
which is to be inflicted in case of Zina bir-Radha is
also to be inflicted in case of Zina bil Jabr. It is
by no means in order to say that the Hadd mentioned in
the Holy Qur'an and in the sacred Ahadith is to be
inflicted only in case of Zina bir-Radh; and that it
is not applicable in case of Zina bil Jabr.

Now arises the question why is there so much
insistence on abolishing the shara'i punishment for
Zina bil Jabr? The reason for this is an extremely
unjust propaganda which certain circles are busily
spreading ever since the Hudood ordinance has been
implemented. According to this propaganda, if any rape
victim intends to sue the offender under the Hudood
ordinance, she is asked to produce four witnesses to
support her claim. And if she fails to do so, she
herself is arrested rather than the offender. This
claim has been and is repeated incessantly, so far
that even educated people began to consider it as
true.
And exactly this point has been used as
justification by our president during his speech.

Now if as a result of such propaganda a certain matter
is publicized so much that even the children on the
streets talk about it, then people tend to view anyone
who talks against it as insane. But if anyone wishes
to analyze the matter in a just way, then I would like
to request him to leave all propaganda aside for a
while, and consider the following points: The fact of
the matter is that I myself have been directly hearing
cases registered under Hudood Ordinance, first as a
Judge of Federal Shariah Court and then for 17 years
as a member of Shariah Appellate Bench of the Supreme
Court. In this long tenure, not once did I come across
a case in which a rape victim was awarded punishment
because she was unable to present four witnesses. It
was actually not possible only because of Hudood
Ordinance because according to Hudood Ordinance the
condition of four witnesses was necessary only to
enforce the sharai punishment (had). But at the same
time clause 10(3) was included to award the taazeeri
punishment which did not have the condition of four
witnesses
. Instead the crime could be proven through
one witness, medical examination and chemical analysis
report. Consequently most of the rape criminals were
awarded punishment as per this clause.

What we need to think is that if a woman was unable to
present four witnesses and she was given punishment,
which clause of Hudood Ordinance was used to award her
the punishment? If anyone says that she was punished
because of Qazaf (false accusation of rape) then Qazaf
Ordinance, Clause no. 3, Exemption no. 2 clearly
states that if someone approaches the legal
authorities with a rape complaint, she cannot be
punished in case she is unable to present 4 witnesses.
No court of law can be in its right mind to award such
a punishment. The other possibility could be that the
woman is awarded punishment for committing adultery
with free will. And if the court of law takes such a
decision it may not be because the woman was unable to
present four witnesses but because the court arrived
at this decision after giving due consideration to all
the available evidence. Obviously if a woman accuses a
man of raping her but subsequent evidence proves that
she committed adultery with her free will and her
accusation proves to be false then punishing her will
not be against the spirit of justice. But since
usually there is lack of sufficient evidence to proof
that the woman is lying, even such cases are rare. In
99% of the cases it so happens that the court of law
is not convinced that the woman has been raped yet
since there is lack of sufficient evidence to prove
the willful involvement of the woman, she is given the
benefit of doubt and set free. This can be verified
very easily by doing an analyses of the cases executed
under Hudood Ordinance in the last 27 years. Other
judges who have been involved in the proceedings are
of the same opinion that even when a woman's character
is found doubtful she is not punished; only the man
gets punished.

Since from the very beginning voices are being raised
against Hudood Ordinance that innocent women are being
punished because of it, an American Scholar Charles
Kennedy got interested and visited Pakistan to conduct
a survey of the cases. He analysed all the data
related to Hudood Ordinance cases and presented the
results in the form of a report which has been
published. The results are very much in line with the
above mentioned facts. He writes in his report: Women
fearing conviction under Section 10(2) frequently
bring charges of rape under 10(3) against their
alleged partners. The FSC finding no circumstantial
evidence to support the latter charge, convict the
male accused under section 10(2)….the women is
exonerated of any wrongdoing due to reasonable doubt
rule. (Charles Kennedy: The Status of Women in
Pakistan in Islamization of Laws page 74)

This is what an unbiased non-Muslim scholar who has
got no sympathies toward the Hudood ordinance,
observed with regard to such women who had actually
consented to committing Zina, and then due to the
pressure from side of their families, tried to declare
their deed as Zina bil Jabr. They were not asked to
produce four witnesses, but to furnish circumstantial
evidence. On being unable to furnish circumstantial
evidence which would give weight to their claim of
having been raped, only the male parties were
punished, whereas the female parties went unpunished,
as no transgression could be proven on their part.
Hence there is no such clause in the Hudood ordinance
according to which, if a woman fails to produce four
witnesses to support her claim of having been raped,
she is to be punished rather than the offender.

It is however possible that during investigations
conducted by the police, and before the matter could
be brought to the court, some rape-victims were indeed
wrongly and without any justification arrested as
committers of Zina bir-Radha. However this is no flaw
in the Hudood ordinance. Unfortunately the police in
our country are quite prone to commit such acts of
injustice while enforcing the law. But this does not
mean that the law has to be changed. In our country,
keeping heroin is a crime. And it happens quite often
that the police themselves hide some heroin with
innocent citizens only to pressurize them afterwards.
Should we then -in order to resolve this situation-
abolish the law according to which keeping heroin is a
crime? Through its decisions, the Federal Shar'iah
Court had several times set an end to maltreatment
which rape-victims had to suffer at the hands of the
police. However, if one was to assume that this risk
has not yet been fully eliminated, then one could
draft a law according to which no woman claiming to
have been a victim of rape could be arrested under any
article of the Hudood ordinance, until the court has
delivered its final judgement. Besides, one could make
further laws stating the punishment for one who
wrongly arrests a rape-victim. But under no
circumstances is it permissible to abolish the
punishment which the Holy Shari'ah has laid down for
Zina bil Jabr.

Hence,
The way in which the bill under discussion abolishes
the punishment which the Holy Shari'ah has prescribed
for Zina bil Jabr is in utter contradiction with the
Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah, and it is in no way
related to the maltreatment of the concerned women.

Lewdness

The second significant feature of the said bill is
related to those articles which were added to this
bill under the heading of 'Lewdness'. The injunctions
in the Hudood ordinance were such that if -in
accordance with the principles stated by the Holy
Shari'ah- there are four witnesses to the act of Zina,
then the Hadd shall be inflicted on the offender, as
per the fifth article of the Hudood ordinance. And if
there are no four witnesses, but the crime is proven
beyond doubt, then the offenders are to be given a
ta'zeeri (i.e. discretionary) punishment. Now the Hadd
for Zina bir Radha, prescribed in the fifth article of
the Hudood ordinance, and for which four witnesses are
a prerequisite, has been retained in the said bill,
but in article 8 has been stated that this kind of
offence is no longer under police jurisdiction that
anyone should take four witnesses and lodge a
complaint in the court, and that one cannot register
an FIR with the police. Thus the procedure of proving
Zina as an act calling for Hadd has become even more
difficult. Besides that, the discretionary punishment
prescribed by the Hudood ordinance in case four
witnesses could not be procured has been altered as
follows:

  1. In the Hudood ordinance, Zina has been referred
    to as a crime calling for discretionary punishment.
    Now in the bill under review, this act is referred to
    as 'Lewdness'. This change is appropriate, as from the
    Qur'anic and Sunnah point of view, in the absence of
    four witnesses; it is rather difficult to prove this
    offence as Zina. Hence, under such circumstances, this
    act should indeed be referred to as anything less than
    Zina. This was indeed a weak point in the Hudood
    ordinance, and the removal of this weakness had been
    strongly recommended by the scholars. 2. According
    to the Hudood ordinance, this offence could be awarded
    a sentence of maximum ten years. Now the maximum is
    five years. Anyway, since it is a discretionary
    punishment only, this reduction is not in
    contradiction with the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

  2. According the Hudood ordinance, Zina was an
    offence that fell under the jurisdiction of the
    police, whereas according to the bill under review it
    does not fall under the jurisdiction of the police.
    Now one cannot go to the police station and file an
    FIR in case of such an offence, rather one will have
    to lodge a complaint in the court. At the time of
    lodging the complaint, one will have to produce two
    eye-witnesses, whose statement under oath shall be
    immediately recorded by the court. Thereafter, if the
    court deems to have sufficient reason to further
    pursue the matter, it will issue a subpoena to the
    accused. Then as far as further proceedings are
    concerned, the court will contend itself with
    demanding a personal bond from the accused to present
    him/herself at the court. And if the court deems not
    to have sufficient reason to further pursue the
    matter, the case shall be dismissed then and there.

Thus proving the offence of lewdness has been so very
difficult, that there is almost no way someone could
get punished for it.

First of all, according to the Islamic injunctions,
lewdness and Zina are crimes not just against an
individual, but against the whole society and the
state. Hence this crime ought to be under the
jurisdiction of the police. Well, now doubt, when
keeping this offence under the jurisdiction of the
police, one must keep in mind the occasionally
questionable performance of our police, and one must
ensure that innocent couples are not put to trouble.
The Federal Shari'at Court has given several
judgements after which this risk has been eliminated
to a great extent. Throughout those twenty-seven years
during which this offence had remained under the
jurisdiction of the police, there were hardly any
cases where innocent people had been put to trouble.
But in order to further eliminate this risk, there
should be a law according to which this kind of
investigation should be made by an officer whose rank
is not less than that of an SP. Besides, there should
be no arrest without prior order from the court. If
one would implement these steps, then this risk would
be fully eliminated.

Secondly, obliging the plaintiff to immediately
produce four witnesses in case of Hadd, and two eye
witnesses in case of lewdness, seems to be a quite
unique feature of our martial law. Nowhere in the
whole legal system pertaining to testimony -apart from
Hudood- has been made mention of a certain minimum
number of witnesses. At times decisions are made in
total absence of eye-witnesses, only on account of
circumstantial evidence. Hence in the said offence,
the reports of physical examinations and chemical
analysis are important pieces of evidence. From the
shariah perspective taazeeri punishment can be awarded
even with availability of one witness and also in
presence of circumstantial evidence. Therefore, in the
case of taazeer, presence of two witnesses at the time
pf complaint registration practically the same as
providing unnecessary protection to the criminals of
lewdness. As such, making it a condition that from
such a criminal the court of law will not be
authorized to demand any bail except a personal bond
is like impeding justice. Different cases come with
different situations, which is why as per the military
Act 496 the court is already authorized to free the
criminal on personal bond if the situation so warrants
and similarly it can ask for additional guarantees if
it deems necessary. This authority lies with the court
even in case of minor crimes but to invalidate it for
a crime like lewdness is not at all appropriate. It
is, but not clear why the clause is added that if the
court does not find sufficient substance in favor of
the case then it will dismiss the case since it is
already covered under Military Act clause 203.

  1. According to Hudood Ordinance if necessary
    evidence to enforce had is not found against someone
    but the crime is in any case proven then he may be
    awarded taazeeri punishment as per clause 10(3). But
    as per the bill under consideration , clause no. 203
    which has been added in the Military Act in its para 6
    states that if someone is acquitted in a case of had
    cannot be tried in a case of lewdness. It is now
    obvious that the extremely strict conditions laid down
    for enforcement of had are sometimes not fulfilled
    merely due to the technical reasons. In a situation
    when strong evidence is available to prove the crime
    the court dealing with the rape case cannot award any
    punishment. In fact it cannot even register a case of
    lewdness against the criminal. What we need to think
    is that disallowing the courts registering a case
    against such a person is nothing but providing
    protection to lewdness. Similarly in clause 12 A of
    the proposed bill it is stated that if someone is
    accused of rape his case cannot be converted into a
    case of lewdness at any point in time in future.
    Consequently if a woman registers a case of rape
    against someone but some doubt remains in proving that
    the act was committed by force, the criminal will be
    released and even a case of lewdness will not be made
    against him. At a time when zina bir raza (adultery)
    was not a crime, the rape criminals used to adopt this
    line that what they did was with the free will of the
    woman. Therefore if the court suspected woman's
    connivance it would dismiss the case and would free
    the accused. Hudood Ordinance did not allow this line
    of defence to the person accused of rape because
    adultery was declared a crime even if it was done with
    the woman's free will. And the court which was hearing
    the case of rape could also award him the tazeeri
    punishment. But this new amendment has created nearly
    the same situation that if someone says that he has
    committed adultery with the woman's free will and he
    succeeds in creating doubts then noone will be able to
    bring him to justice. The court hearing this case will
    not be able to take any action because due to the
    above clause it is no more authorized to convert a
    case of rape into a case of lewdness. And if suppose a
    case of lewdness is registered afresh then even if we
    ignore everything else, it will not be possible to do
    so for it is mandatory to bring two eye-witnesses
    along to the court for registering the complaint.
    While in this case two eye-witnesses are not
    available. As a result such a person will go scot-free
    and no court of law will be able to take any new
    action against him. Now arises the question, is the
    kind of lewdness which has been declared a criminal
    offence indeed a criminal offence? If yes, then why do
    such laws come into being which not only protect the
    offence but also save the offender from punishment?
    Some further amendments to the Hudood ordinance There
    were made some further amendments to the Hudood
    ordinance, e.g.

  2. According to one statement of the Noble Prophet
    sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, if a person has been
    awarded Hadd as a result of his offence, then no one
    has got the right to reduce or forgive the sentence.
    Thus according to article 20, point 5 of the Hudood
    ordinance, the authority of foregoing, altering or
    reducing a punishment which the martial law has given
    the provincial governments, shall not be applicable in
    case of Hudood. One significant change in the bill
    under review is that article 20, point five of the
    Hudood ordinance has been canceled. This means that if
    any court awards Hadd, then the government is
    authorized to alter or reduce this punishment. This
    amendment is clearly against the injunctions of the
    Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah. In the Holy Qur'an comes:

'And it becometh not a believing man or a believing
woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an
affair (for them), that they should claim any say in
their affair.' (Surah Ahzab, Ayat 36)

There is a well-known incident according to which a
high-ranking companion had interceded with the Noble
Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam for a woman who
had committed theft (as a result of which she deserved
Hadd). The Noble Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam
reprimanded the companion and said:

'Had Muhammad's (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam)
daughter committed theft, I would have cut her hand
off.' (Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Hudood, Bab 12, Hadith
nr. 6788)

  1. In article 3 of the Hudood ordinance has been
    stated that the regulations stated in this ordinance
    shall be given superiority over the other laws, that
    means if there be any contradiction between the
    regulations in this ordinance and the other laws, then
    the regulations of the Hudood ordinance shall be
    followed. This article which had actually resolved
    many legal perplexities, and because of which
    oppressed women had been considerably less vulnerable,
    has been cancelled in the said bill. So if, for
    example, a man has divorced his wife, then, according
    to the family law, this divorce will not take effect
    until the notice thereof has been sent to the union
    council, whereas, if seen from the shara'i point of
    view, the woman is free to remarry, once she has
    passed her iddat. The family law however does not take
    such a divorce into account unless the union council
    receives a notice in this regard. That means the woman
    will still be considered as her husband's legal wife.
    She cannot contract a new marriage anywhere else. Now
    there are many incidents where the husband did not
    send a notice to the union council, and the woman,
    considering herself as a divorcee, contracts a new
    marriage, after having passed her iddat. Now her
    malicious husband lodges a case of adultery against
    the women because as per the family law she was still
    his wife. When such cases were reported, the shariah
    bench of the Supreme Court used the Hudood Ordinance
    and its same clause no. 3 to order release of these
    women. It was stated that Hudood Ordinance has been
    formulated in accordance with the shariah and shariah
    allows this woman to perform second marriage,
    therefore, the family law will not be applicable in
    case of her marriage because Hudood Ordinance
    supersedes all other laws.
    After repealing this clause and especially after
    annulling the definition of nikah from the Hudood
    Ordinance through this bill, one more time there are
    possibilities that the women will suffer in the new
    situation. We raised this issue in the Ulema Committee
    and had finally agreed that it will be replaced by the
    following clause: In the interpretation and
    application of this Ordinance the injunctions of Islam
    as laid in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall have
    effect, notwithstanding anything contained in any
    other law for the time being in force. But this clause
    is missing from the bill which has now been passed by
    the National Assembly due to which many problems can
    be anticipated.

  2. In the clause 14 of Qazaf Ordinance the
    procedure of La'an as mentioned in Quran, is
    mentioned. According to this if a man accuses his wife
    of adultery and fails to produce 4 witnesses then on
    the woman's demand he will have to take oath in the
    process of La'an. After oaths from both sides have
    taken place the marriage will dissolve. The Qazf
    Ordinance states that if the man refuses to undergo
    La'an he will be kept under arrest until he agrees. In
    the new bill this clause has been removed which means
    that if the man does not agree undergoing the process
    of La'an the woman will be left helpless. She will
    neither be able to prove her innocence through La'an
    nor will she be able to dissolve her marriage.
    Moreover, the Qazaf Ordinance states that if during
    the process of La'an the woman admits committing
    adultery then she will be awarded the punishment of
    adultery. The new bill has also removed this part even
    though it does not make any sense not to punish a
    person after she has pleaded guilty - and while the
    process of La'an is initiated at the behest of the
    woman and no one forces her to confess. Therefore this
    part of the bill is also against the injunctions of
    the Holy Quran and Sunnah.

  3. In clause 20 of Hudood Ordinace it was stated
    that if through evidence it is proven that the offense
    committed is a crime punishable by a law other than
    the Hudood Ordinance then if the crime falls in the
    jurisdiction of this court it can award punishment to
    the accused. This clause was to simplify the complex
    legal procedures. But the bill under discussion has
    revoked this authority of the court.

The situation is such that all punishable crimes
similar to adultery/rape have been taken out of the
Hudood Ordinance and incorporated in the
Tazeerat-e-Pakistan. Hence, the result of this
amendment is that if any man has been accused of Zina
which calls for Hadd, but after hearing the witnesses
it turns out that the man had compelled the woman, or,
if Zina could not be proven, but it could be proven
that the man had abducted the woman, then the court
can neither award a punishment for rape, nor for
abduction, rather the court will let the culprit go,
knowing perfectly well that he had kidnapped the woman
and raped her. Thereafter the culprit will either go
free, or the complaint will have to be lodged another
time, so that the court takes up its proceedings
again.

Legislation is a very delicate process which requires
one to sit with a cool, unbiased mind and consider all
aspects and possible dilemmas. If one changes laws as
a consequence of propaganda, or because of being
overawed by catchy slogans, then this results in
something similar to the above. Then the courts will
get entangled with all sorts of legal intricacies and
take considerable time to construe and interpret the
new laws. Cases will be shuffled between the courts,
and it will become near impossible to redress the
grievances of the oppressed.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

The law could have all sorts of problems with it. All Im saying is it is right to amend hudood ordinances on this specific point, with which the Amir Jamaat-e-Islami explicitly disagrees: A raped woman should have more recourses that just 4 witnesses and a raped woman should NEVER be punished because she was raped and could not prove it. You've posted a lot of text, through which I dont know what addresses these two points. Please post the relevant bits.

edit: I see you've bolded sections of the text. So the judge sahab says that the conditions for proving rape include 1 witness and medical examination. So much the better. In that case Ameer Jamaat Islami is wrong on his claim that anyone going against the 4 witness rule is arguing against Quran and needs to say Kalima again. What happens if there are no witnesses to the rape btw.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

[QUOTE]
In that case Ameer Jamaat Islami is wrong on his claim that anyone going against the 4 witness rule is arguing against Quran and needs to say Kalima again.
[/quote]
at one point the article says something similar

[quote]

What happens if there are no witnesses to the rape btw

[/QUOTE]

"......At times decisions are made in
total absence of eye-witnesses, only on account of
circumstantial evidence. Hence in the said offence,
the reports of physical examinations and chemical
analysis are important pieces of evidence. From the
shariah perspective taazeeri punishment can be awarded
even with availability of one witness and also in
presence of circumstantial evidence....."

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

Im sure the article wont say that people advocating approaches other than 4 witnesses are apostates.

[quote]

"......At times decisions are made in
total absence of eye-witnesses, only on account of
circumstantial evidence. Hence in the said offence,
the reports of physical examinations and chemical
analysis are important pieces of evidence. From the
shariah perspective taazeeri punishment can be awarded
even with availability of one witness and also in
presence of circumstantial evidence....."
[/QUOTE]

Thats good. The more reliance on technology the better as far as Im concerned. Does seem like the Islamists misunderstood the law they were campaigning to protect, if this judge's opinion is more correct that the Amir Jamaat e Islami's.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

well the article deals with the misconceptions. i hope youve took the time to read it

the apostasy of someone who denies any ayat of the Quran is well known because the Quran is from Allah SWT (exception: does not apply to ignorant people of little knowledge afaik )

[quote]

Thats good. The more reliance on technology the better as far as Im concerned. Does seem like the Islamists misunderstood the law they were campaigning to protect, if this judge's opinion is more correct that the Amir Jamaat e Islami's.
[/QUOTE]

its not any ol' judge its Muhammad Taqi Usmani (scholar)

the islamists (muslims) should campaign for the four witness (for hadd) to stay as its from the Quran. and there is other aspects of this that you might want to consider. firstly the police are also arresting women contrary to the law for failure to produce witnesses! so emir might have been talking on a practical level, or average case scenario

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

Loved this part:

"*The fact of the matter is that I myself have been directly hearing cases registered under Hudood Ordinance, first as aJudge of Federal Shariah Court and then for 17 years as a member of Shariah Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court. In this long tenure, not once did I come across a case in which a rape victim was awarded punishment because she was unable to present four witnesses."
*

Hope ravage and drama queen person asking question to Munawar Hussain in video have the answer to at least one stupid claim.
He mentioned something about "National Commision Of Status Of Women". Who are they? ;)

P.S. Not a Jamaati. Thank God. :) Just a simple observer.
P.S.-2 Don't care what bill they approve. No laws encompass everything.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

If you have no idea about something then why bother to reply? Just a little info. .it’s an permanent constitutional body regarding all kind of women affairs - have powers to review the bills & laws, it was known as Ministry of Women Affairs in first Benazir government.

http://www.ncsw.gov.pk/

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

He signs of as Justice, therefore hes judge sahab. You are contradicting yourself, do you think four witnesses should be the standard for proving rape, or do you think medical and forensic evidence should be enough to convict a rapist? The latter is what was explicitly rejected by the Amir. Please watch the video before talking about what the amir might be talking about.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

You did not get the question.

OK. I’ll rephrase…Who are these dumb people named as…:slight_smile:

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

Thank you Firenze for the info on the National Commission. With respect to your quote, just because this didnt come across Usmani sahab’s experience, or he perhaps misremembers, doesnt mean that it doesnt happen. Two famous cases are those of Zafran and Safia bibi:

http://www.southasianmedia.net/Magazine/journal/islamisation_laws.htm

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

The problem with these kind of laws is that there is no real provision for the remedy to the person who gets wrongly accused.

The person quoted some organisation claiming something like 80% BS. The Justice denied and answered. And you came up with half baked, unproven, media based info to say something otherwise. :slight_smile:

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

You are merely regarding, without basis, the Justice's denial over the (government) statistics. On the face of it its a he-said, she-said case. The two cases I cite directly take the wind out of the Justice's claims, that he didnt come across a single case in his 17 year career. These are two cases that are both on the record, and well known where in both cases a woman was raped, could not prove her rape, but was awarded punishment for zina to be rescinded by higher courts after public outcry. Either he is unaware of common knowledge or he is conveniently misremembering. You dont need me to give you a link with reference to these cases, just google these two names and you'll come up with lots of information on them.

I agree with you that there should be provisions for women who are wrongly accused, and women who are imprisoned and spend time on death row because they were convicted after they couldnt prove their rape and only released on appeal later (Zafran bibi). Unfortunately the moment you do that, you will go through a rerun of 2006 where Islamists will run around with banners and people wishing to introduce such 'liberal' reforms like you and me will beat a retreat.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

The moment you present half baked, half credited sources, you are doomed.

The moment one write the hateful words like 'islamists', they are exposed. I know you love that word. Kehkashan did too. ;)
The article you qouted smells of hatred.

Its like someone saying words like 'gora', 'American', 'Western', 'Paki', 'nazi' etc.

One would take the words of someone who ACTUALLY sat on the bench and processed these cases than someone who reported alleged events.

Are you saying the justice sahab is wrong? If so then what else is new with your mullah bashing/hating views my dear?

The problem here is that you got a great answer above but just want to act like, "Main Nah Maanoon"....as usual.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

The problem is that as usual you are stuck on processing and reprocessing something I answered a while back. Whatever you think of my sources, you dont need to rely on them. Both of these cases are well known, and you can verify the facts in two minutes if you know how to type and are not developmentally challenged. My own political views, which cant be accused of being carefully hidden, dont need to influence what you know about the cases. And if you know anything about these cases, you’ll know that the Justice sahab is knowingly or unknowingly giving the wrong picture.

Btw, with regards to using the word Islamist… apparently Jamaat-e-Islami didnt get the memo :smiley:

http://jamaat.org/beta/site/page/3

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

first of all, this ludicrous rule of making it mandatory for a rape victim to produce four witnesses to prove her case is not Islamic at all . Anyone who thinks it is Islamic, I would request him to prove it. Molvi sahab is totally wrong on this. The problem with our intellectuals is that they lack knowledge of Quran and whenever a mullah projects certain idea to being Islamic and Quranic, they don't ask them to bring Quran and show it to them.

Anyways, let us focus on Quran as what do we find there in this context:

[QUOTE]

24:5) And those who calumniate chaste women but bring not four witnesses — flog them with eighty stripes, and never admit

their evidence thereafter, and it is they that are the transgressors

[/QUOTE]

and about those accused hazrat ayesha (ra)

[QUOTE]

24:14)
Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? Since they have not brought the required witnesses, they are indeed liars in the sight of Allah!

[/QUOTE]

These verses basically discuss allegations of adultery especially on women. It is not a trivial thing to accuse someone (especially women) of immodesty. You cannot throw filth on their character without consequences. You need to bring four witnesses for your claim on their character and if you don't do so. you will get penalised for that.
Now our pseudo mullahs have extrapolated it to rape as well that is not right. We must understand that accusing someone being a third person is totally different from accusing someone being a victim of such henious act. I haven't found any prescribed procedure for rape cases in Quran and thus of the view that all the available sources including forensics should be utilized to get to the fact.

Compulsion of four witnesses will only serve to encourage perpetrators and will make them untouchables. Four witnesses was a deterance to throwing filth on someone's character especially chaste women.

Re: A raped woman who cannot produced four witnesses should keep quiet about it

ravage sahab!

Did yo even read the full answer posted above by shardmanny?

Just checking. :slight_smile:

Bhai mere, there is no substantial reason to bash at least the part where zina is considered a crime by islam (as some people do) and that is also a part of other religions. (Punishment and process may vary in different religions).

Secondly, you have put all the weight on these two cases…but have failed to read that in both cases by the apeal of Federal Shariat court the punishment were not given. Missed those parts? :wink:

Third, Justice sahab is still more credible after reading that Federal shariat court actually helped these women.

Fourth, you have not said anything on the part where Justice sahab did say the injustice might have occurred but that is because of lack underdtanding the law and lack of correct implementations, not becasue there is somethng wrog with the law itself.

Fifth, you missed Charles kennedy admittance of no big problem quoted by the Justice sahab.

Sixth, you have not commented on the drama queen who interviwed Munawwar Hussain…
It is hilarious to see him saying and defendiing he is a good muslim for no reason. He was NOT accused of being Kafir and no fatwa was sanctioned, he himself interpreted that by cutting Munawwar Hussain off.
(These interviewers ARE trained to cut off others, if you observe them closely)

7th, I agree that women should be able to speak out without fear if rape is committed aganst them and beyond four witnesses **other means **have to be used, same thing Justice sahab mentioned and stated that it is provided to those who cannot bring four witnesses and yes majority will not be able to.

8th, Even in those societies where freedom is available to speak out, a lot of cases may not be reported because of the nature of the accusation and shame attached to it …as well as the justice system is complex everywhere…no matter how simple that can be made.
Wrong accusations are made and true crimes go unnoticed.

Nine, **Why not ALSO talk about the accountability for those women who wrongly accuse men for any secondary gain?
What is/should be the process for that?

Another question I posed above was what if there is NO EVIDENCE at all, not even scientific?
**
10- There is no reason to make Rai Ka Pahaar (Making a big deal out of nothing).

It is the implementation of law that has to be addressed, not changing the law altogether.

(Read that long post again by Shardmanny. :))

Addendum: There are blacks who use N word themselves, does not change the fact that this word is and can be used as a hateful word. It also depends on who says in what context and same word can be taken as a hateful word. So one needs to be a bit careful.