A question to my Shia brethren

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I fully understand the Shia perspective and the dogma. All I wish to know is if it is not within the honorary capacity of our Shia brethren to exercise their belief by just underscoring the achievements and greatness of Hazrat Ali (RA), Hazrat Hasan (RA), Hazrat Hussain (RA) and the other respectable personalities, and NOT deriding the personalities who are respectable to your Sunni brethren ?
If I am right the avoidable friction that manifests between the two communities more than emanates due to this very reason, and not in principal for the very practise of the faith.

Thanks

Suhaib

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Suby thank you for understanding. :)

Since you understand the Shia dogma you will also know that deriding prominent personalities of Islam is not part of our belief or ritualistic practise.

What we believe is allowed though is to question the ACTIONS of certain prominent individual and Sahabas that may seem to be in a contradiction with the Quran and the Prophet’s Sunnah. It is within our rights as Muslims to question and to point out these errors. Unless of course you believe that these people and especially the leaders of the Ummah were totally free from misjudgement or from committing any wrong because then naturally no one would have any right question such prominent people, but we know this is not the case.

Speaking from a personal point of view, what I have come across is many Sunni’s will take the questioning of the questionable actions of Sahaba as a personal affront (when it isn’t meant to be anything like that but rather is a discussion of early Islamic History which as we all know wasn’t as hunky-dory as it is made out to be). That’s when the trouble starts. If you are not prepared to listen, to discuss and are inclined to believe ludicrous rumours instead then there isn’t much that can be done to reduce the friction is there?

However I totally agree with you we should not resort to name-calling and cursing (yes, this happens often in Indo-Pak), IMO the only thing that proves is desperation and the bottomless pit of one’s own ignorance – Sunni or Shia regardless. Shia’s (‘mawla-i’ ones) would do well to remember Imam Ali (as) himself (or any of Imams) never resorted to slander. :)

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Salams Rhia

Thank you for the right interpretation of my question, and the for the eloquent and a 'tolerant' reply for the same :)
Well, it must be a known fact to you too that a Sunni is brought up being asked to respect all of our prophet's closest companions (i.e., including Hazrat Ali (RA), and all of his family members), as he is to show respect to all the prophets of Islam besides Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
No child is ever inspired to hatch any kind of disrespect for any of the Sahabas or the learned of the time.
SO, in this regard expecting one to extend a patient ear to listen/discuss to/with the member of the other party about the deeds/misdeeds of the personalities bygone is certainly be seen as asking for too much.
BECAUSE, we know that discussions/arguments wont help anybody prove anything. This is not a game where at the end emerges a winner and a loser. What we are trying to do is battling our respectable personalities of our glorious past, and here certainly there will be no winners !! Only the blood and venom of the ummah will be wasted, that too against eachother !!
Let us all find ways to merge and not to split.
AND hence, I suggest that the Ummah now Unite. With Unity comes Love, and with Love comes Strength.
LET THE SHIA AND THE SUNNI BRETHREN RELISH WHAT IS COMMON BETWEEN THEM, INSTEAD OF BRANDISHING THEIR DIFFERENCES AT EACHOTHER.

LONG LIVE ISLAM - LET THE SHIA SUNNI BLEND AS FLOWER AND FRAGRANCE.

Suhaib

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assalamoalikum :jhanda:

i don’t understand or know the shia beliefs or why they are different to sunnis’. can u explain? and secondly i have heard that shia muslims have their own kalima and they don’t read the kalima we do (la ila ha illal la ho mohammed-der-rasoolulahoo) i watched a shia imam give a speech/sermon once and he read a different kalima with the 1st part like ours (sunni’s) but the mohammed bit was altered? why don’t u believe in prophet mohammed (s.a.w)

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Wasalam Suby

Welcome :) It wasn’t a ‘tolerant’ reply it is what I truly believe in.

You are right to say it’s the common ground and not the differences we should work on and I appreciate your spirit of collective unity but I think you will agree until the fundamental differences are ‘sorted’ or understood at least, the unity will be on a superficial basis (not long lasting) and plus the mistrust and hatred caused by decades of filthy propaganda and false lies is not going to disappear overnight. So work with us on that one.

Respect should not mean total mental blackout. If the respect comes at the cost of putting blocks on critical thinking is it worth it? For example your patriotism or love for Pakistan doesn’t automatically exclude your ability to be critical about it does it? On one level your criticism may even be more deserving simply because of your respect and love for it.

On to your question about what is the point of these discussions of the ‘wrongdoings’ of personalities that are held in great esteem? This isn’t a win-lose game but in order to ‘get back together’ the basic differences first have to be understood and then put aside and they need to be understood because these differences continue to haunt the ‘Ummah’ to this day, if they didn’t there wouldn’t be much of an issue to discuss now would there? Incidentally how can u put the differences aside if you don’t know or don’t WANT to know what they are??

To do this first you have to understand the decisive split that came in the Ummah after the Blessed Prophet’s death. The divide in the Ummah occurred not after the death of the Beloved Prophet but at the time he was breathing his last. Shia faith was NOT invented out of the blue and it was NOT invented by a ‘Jew’(if that’s what u were told).

The ‘Shias’ i.e. the followers of Ali came about on the basis of these questions: Why could the Prophet not leave a will to appoint his successor? Why did Ibn Abbas grieve for the rest of his life about the ‘Calamity of Thursday’? Who or which prominent personality insinuated the Prophet was ‘majnoon’ (nauzobillah) when the Prophet asked for pen and paper to write a will when the Quran testifies the Prophet is not majnoon? Why did prominent personalities disobey the explicit order of the Prophet while on his deathbed to ‘go out of Madina with the army of Osama’ and for the people in the army to NOT return to Medina? Why did then such esteemed personalities return to Medina? What really happened at Saqifah? Why were respected personalities at Saqifah WHILE the Prophet’s funeral arrangements were being made and the fact they happened to miss the Prophet’s funeral prayers? Why were there NO other prominent Sahabas at Saqifah? Why did Imam Ali refuse to give allegiance to those elected as the Khalifahtul Muslimeen? Why did other prominent Sahabas like Salman Farsi, Ammar Yasir, Abu Dhar and others not recognise or give allegiance to the respected personalities in question so much so that Abu Dhar a person about whom the Prophet said Abu Dhar always speaks the truth was sent into exile? Who banished him into exile in the desert? And most importantly ‘IF’ the Prophet had left a successor who and on what criteria is the most eligible ‘candidate’ for that position?

These questions are as relevant today as they were 1400 years ago. They are the basis of difference. Nothing matters as much as these questions. Closing your ears and minds is not the solution to bridging the differences. Learning from your own sources is a good start.

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insolent mod, what did they replace ‘muhammed’ (saw) with in the kalima?

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Salaam Rhia

Thanks for a detailed and patient reply :)
What do you suggest the sorting mechaism to be then ? If turning a blind eye to the differences is outrageous to the 'spirit' of the humankind, then what is the way out for the two to survive amicably ? Indulge is exchange of abuses and 'propoganda' and survive with hatred hatched in our hearts ? Isn't there an end to this ? Do you wish to live with hatred, closing upon yourself all the doors of a possibility for peaceful living ?

If it comes to help eradicate the 'filthy propoganda', I am sure that me and the likes of me would be more than glad to help.
'Wrongdoing of the Sahaba' may surely form the very kernal of your belief system, but the most important question that needs to be answered by my Shia brethren is

1) Do you wish to go on and on with the list of wrongs committed and entice the flames of hatred till the doomsday ? Or
2) Work with the Sunnie brethren and help build a strong and united Ummah ?

Does, coming closer to a Sunni brother with an open heart manifest to you as a disrespect to Hazrat Ali (RA) and his family ? If so, my dear friend, I am sorry to say, you are entering into a loop where only disharmony would prevail.

Remember one thing, no matter how hard you try or how loud you cry, never will you be able to win over (or convince) a Sunni about the 'wrongs' (No, I am not trying to take side with a Sunni, this is just a matter of pure human tendency). So, what do you see as a way out ? Or, is there any at all ?

Yes, you have very meticulously asked about a dozen questions, which probably are once again the cornerstone for all the disagreement. BUT, will you get any answers for those ? You never will. So .. ?

While in college I knew one Abbas Hussain, a staunch Shia, but never did the Shia-Sunni thing emerge between us. He used to accompany me to a Sunni mosque (mind you, out of his own interest). And this friend's father, always suggested him to have me and only me as his friend because atleast I took him to a mosque, and his father had given him strict instructions to keep away from his cousins who were mostly found loitering. You find this too good to be true ? But believe me, IT IS A FACT. If me and Abbas Hussain could be this friendly, why not the rest of the Ummah ? That alone is my point.

Suhaib

P.S. I am an Indian, not a Pakistani, and celebrate the fact that I am a muslim

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by suby: *
If turning a blind eye to the differences is outrageous to the 'spirit' of the humankind, then what is the way out for the two to survive amicably ? Indulge is exchange of abuses and 'propoganda' and survive with hatred hatched in our hearts ? Isn't there an end to this ? Do you wish to live with hatred, closing upon yourself all the doors of a possibility for peaceful living ?
[/QUOTE]

I wrote in my previous reply this is exactly what we don’t want. Can I suggest you go back to read it please?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by suby: *
1) Do you wish to go on and on with the list of wrongs committed and entice the flames of hatred till the doomsday ? Or
2) Work with the Sunnie brethren and help build a strong and united Ummah ?

Does, coming closer to a Sunni brother with an open heart manifest to you as a disrespect to Hazrat Ali (RA) and his family ? If so, my dear friend, I am sorry to say, you are entering into a loop where only disharmony would prevail.

Remember one thing, no matter how hard you try or how loud you cry, never will you be able to win over (or convince) a Sunni about the 'wrongs' (No, I am not trying to take side with a Sunni, this is just a matter of pure human tendency). So, what do you see as a way out ? Or, is there any at all ?

Yes, you have very meticulously asked about a dozen questions, which probably are once again the cornerstone for all the disagreement. BUT, will you get any answers for those ? You never will. So .. ?
[/QUOTE]

What I did outline was the EXACT reasons for the differences. If someone wants to find out the actual reasons for the differences before ‘uniting’, I’ve listed them and I hope they can find out the answers for themselves. Education and learning about why others believe what they do is one very important way in which these differences can be reduced. If you understand EXACTLY where I am coming from and why I do what I do, the chances of misunderstanding and bias will be that much less. Don’t u think? You can’t build a Muslim Ummah if you don’t understand our point of view and our reasoning. You don’t have to be ‘convinced’ or accept it, all we ask for is for you to Understand. Those questions are the starting point of understanding. Otherwise anyone could say if the Sahabas were fighting among themselves and killing each other how can we except to be united?! And furthermore why do you blame Shias as being the cause and of ‘fanning the flames of hatred’?

Coming closer to Sunnis IS our motive and that is something we do not shy away from and it is NOT disrespect to Imam Ali (infact it would be upholding his teachings). But does it get any easier when on top of the centuries old false propaganda against Shias you have ‘learned’ Sunni’s declaring Shia as worse than Mushriq, or when you are told not to eat at Shias house because they put ‘blood’ and spit in their food or when ppl r told they will go to jannah if they kill shias or when a sunni ‘faqih’ says nikah to ahl kitaab is jaiz but to a shia is not?!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by suby: *
Thanks for a detailed and patient reply :)
What do you suggest the sorting mechaism to be then ?
If it comes to help eradicate the 'filthy propoganda', I am sure that me and the likes of me would be more than glad to help.

[/QUOTE]

How? Please give practical advise. Here’s mine:
*Sunnis should make an effort to attend Shia Mosques and centres.
*They should make more of an effort to generally get to know and discuss Shia beliefs.
*The Ulema of all fiqhs should hold a platform to discuss and talk about their beliefs [This has just started to happen in the area where I live and EVERYONE appreciates it – its like the public asks questions/personal problems to the panel who give answers based upon their fiqh, so basically you get the answers from the p.o.v of the different sects].
*If you know that something being said about Shias is NOT true, you should speak up and refute it. And Vice-versa.
*Everyone should read up on Early Islamic History from neutral sources for objectivity.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by suby: *
While in college I knew one Abbas Hussain, a staunch Shia, but never did the Shia-Sunni thing emerge between us. He used to accompany me to a Sunni mosque (mind you, out of his own interest). And this friend's father, always suggested him to have me and only me as his friend because atleast I took him to a mosque, and his father had given him strict instructions to keep away from his cousins who were mostly found loitering. You find this too good to be true ? But believe me, IT IS A FACT. If me and Abbas Hussain could be this friendly, why not the rest of the Ummah ? That alone is my point.

Suhaib

P.S. I am an Indian, not a Pakistani, and celebrate the fact that I am a muslim
[/QUOTE]

Indian, Pakistani or Chinese it makes no difference to me (except that the 2nd largest majority of Shias in the world is in India). :)

Abbas Hussain was lucky to find a friend like yourself. :)
From personal experience in most cases, friendships or people you know, the Shia-Sunni aspect doesn’t occur and even if it does, it isn’t a problem at all. For (sunni) ppl who don’t know the most they will say when they get to know I’m Shia is “Really? But you can’t be a Shia…they’re totally different…” and there’s me thinking do shias go around with horns on their heads?! :D Its pretty amusing to see the different reactions(from loss of words to outright denial) and believe me that’s a common occurrence. And THAT reaction is the expression of the mental block I was talking about previously. I also know that Shias go into Sunni masajids and pray while at a ‘mixed’ Janaza Shias r told to form ‘their own separate’ Jamaat by the ‘senior’ Sunni Imam??! What gives? As it happens the Shias present there stood in line and formed a separate Jamaat with the Sunnis present (who were also outraged by the Sunni Imam’s ignorant comments) led by the Shia Imam. So yes I’m not and never have suggested any of this was impossible. I think it’s a fact if you put a Shia and Sunni in a room they are more likely to become close together than to pick up on their differences. My earlier post was only to show where those differences arose from and not that unity cannot or should not be achieved. I hope u understand that. :)

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hmmmmmmmmmm interesting :)

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Salams Rhia :)

That was the most fortunate piece of information about the Shia - Sunni togetherness I had read so far :)

The need of the hour is NOT to expect them 'to find out the answers for themselves', for the questions posed by you. How more clear could you get with the questions ? They are clear to me, they are clear to all. BUT the 'FACTORS' are not the ones that anybody would want to discuss, leave alone accept them. Corrections to one's opinions can be made of events and personalities that are existing, but not the ones that which we have not witnessed. Go as far as you can, you will never be able to prove me wrong on this one. Pick up any religion or cult on the face of this earth, and try convincing him/her about your opinion on it - you will FAIL, whilst argue about a personality living, you still stand a chance to win !! I do not know if I have made myself very clear here, but I very stongly believe in this.
NOW that a certain aspect of act of the past cannot be discussed between the warring factions, and now that they both genuinely wish they live happily everafter, the only way out is to keep aside the differences - do not discuss them (would be suicidal for both) - adopt eachother - engage in eachother's activities - BUILD A BOND. This I say not just to my Shia brethren, but to the Sunnis as well. Like you reiterated, calling Shia by names, and engaging in any sort of blasphemy against them is an abhorable act in the eyes of Allah. They are as qualified a muslim as any sunni is.
I was shocked to learn about the names Shia are called by some of the Sunni brethren - believe me nothing of that is true. I have dined at a Shia's place, and so has a Shia in mine. There absolutely was no difference, just that the atmosphere was more friendlier - belive me !!
And the thing about different Jamaat - Na-oozubillah !! What more could you do to refute the Iqwaan (brotherhood) element of our relgion ?
Your advises are excellent, and I believe both Sunnis and Shias genuinely interested in making a difference need follow them respectively.
It's very nice to know that Shias and Sunnis are coming together in your place - I wish this could be exercised elsewhere too. Unfortunately no such thing exists in my part of the world - but they aren't fighting either :)
But YES, one such thing definitely happens atleast once in a year during Ramadhan in my city. Jamia Masjid, the city's largest mosque arranges for some Qiraat sessions, and we normally have people attending from various parts of the world - AND most importantly there always are present Qaaris from Iran too (Shias ofcourse). The most memorable one was sometime in 1999 when a 8 year old Iranian boy appeared on the dias, he not only was a Qaari with a beautiful voice, but a Haafiz too (Mashallah). He invited people to ask him queries about just anything, to help them find answers in the perspective of the Holy Quran - and the attendees were dumbfolded by his feat !! Isn't that so welcoming a sign for the both sides ? AND in the assembly of thousands, someone got up with a dumb question (you know what), and believe me, the crowd present there snubbed him so badly, he never opened his mouth again. And I personally have many a times countered people who say things like 'they are not muslims', 'they are half-muslims' and stuff like that. I have been able to convince them, and so can all the other unity-loving, sensible, educated Sunnis.

So, Rhia, do you think the learned can make a difference after all ? :)

Suhaib

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by suby: *
The need of the hour is NOT to expect them 'to find out the answers for themselves', for the questions posed by you. How more clear could you get with the questions ? They are clear to me, they are clear to all. BUT the 'FACTORS' are not the ones that anybody would want to discuss, leave alone accept them. Corrections to one's opinions can be made of events and personalities that are existing, but not the ones that which we have not witnessed. Go as far as you can, you will never be able to prove me wrong on this one. Pick up any religion or cult on the face of this earth, and try convincing him/her about your opinion on it - you will FAIL, whilst argue about a personality living, you still stand a chance to win !! I do not know if I have made myself very clear here, but I very stongly believe in this.
So, Rhia, do you think the learned can make a difference after all ? :)
[/QUOTE]

I agree answering questions isn’t the need of the hour, as u put it. My questions and specific pointing out of the differences was in response to your very first post. If you had worded your post differently and had stated ONLY about unity, I don’t think I would have needed to refer to the differences. Since you yourself mentioned them first, I merely extrapolated upon it. :)

I still maintain scholarly constructive discussions are a much better solution than to keep one’s senses and mind closed. ‘Convincing’ is not what needs to be done. All I ask is for ppl to read up on our (Muslim) collective past. Again these are not opinions but facts. Historical facts. I think the learned can and should make a difference. If not, we common ppl should take it upon ourselves to make a difference for the better and leave the so-called learned to their learning’s if all they propose is fitnah and disunity.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by suby: *
But YES, one such thing definitely happens atleast once in a year during Ramadhan in my city. Jamia Masjid, the city's largest mosque arranges for some Qiraat sessions, and we normally have people attending from various parts of the world - AND most importantly there always are present Qaaris from Iran too (Shias ofcourse). The most memorable one was sometime in 1999 when a 8 year old Iranian boy appeared on the dias, he not only was a Qaari with a beautiful voice, but a Haafiz too (Mashallah). He invited people to ask him queries about just anything, to help them find answers in the perspective of the Holy Quran - and the attendees were dumbfolded by his feat !! Isn't that so welcoming a sign for the both sides ? AND in the assembly of thousands, someone got up with a dumb question (you know what), and believe me, the crowd present there snubbed him so badly, he never opened his mouth again. And I personally have many a times countered people who say things like 'they are not muslims', 'they are half-muslims' and stuff like that. I have been able to convince them, and so can all the other unity-loving, sensible, educated Sunnis.
[/QUOTE]

Yes that was Syed Muhammad Hussain Tabatabai from Qom. I had the fortune of listening to him in 1997 – he was 6 then. Such a beautiful sight it was. I couldn’t believe it, not only did he sit absolutely still (you can never get a six year old to do that! :D) for a few hours infront of hundreds of ppl both sunni and shia but he was answering their questions with verses of the Quran. Now anyone can learn the Quran by rote but to answer questions with verses of the Quran requires understanding. It was phenomenal to see (another accusation that shias have no qari’s and hafiz of Quran has again been disproven!). There is hope yet. :)