THIS IS to all my american friends in this forum
look here gentleman the basic problem is that palestinians have been under occupation since 50 years all this talk of hamas etc is just a eye wash and jus another diversion to deny the palestinians their homeland and part of the zionist ambition.
hamas is a relatively new phenomenon . hamas has come into picture in last 10years what about the 40 years before that? who was stopping the jews from giving indepence to arabs before that?
and abnout sucide bombings first let me make it clear no sane person can condone the killings of innocents now coming to sucide bombers
israel has been using its superior technolgy to torture the arabs since 50 years the zionist have been using apache helicopters etc to target the muslims from air where they enjoyed the luxury of killing arabs from sky and getting away with it
hamas started the bombings to get back at people who thought they could kill arab children and get away with it.
killings have been going on from both sides but when a arab child dies does he get any compensation from the jews? is the family member of the soldier who kills that child harrased?
now to the american public opinion .its a open fact that the american public opinion has always been pro israel and thats largely due to the jewish domination of usa. arabs have always been a subject of ridicule in hollywood movies long before 9/11
the israelis with thier fair skin and thier better english are more affable to the american eyes on the other hand the palestianians with thier rugged looks and arabic accent are not very attractive to the materialistic american public. the americans are practicing a soft form of racism.
and lastly if national interest is what drives every policy in usa then the words concience, humanity,right ,wrong must be removed from dictionary.
Please read a non-revisionist and unbiased history of the middle east over the last 50 years and you will find it has not been soley "Zionist ambition" to blame for the violence. The Arabs had their independence, it wasn't for the Jews to give. But in ignorant and arrogant fashion, the Arabs have initiated wars and continued civilian attacks throughout the last 50 years in an attempt to push Israel into the sea.
American public opinion favoring Israel because of Jewish domination of the US is crap. Public opinion is more related to their culture and values being closer to US. They have been an historically oppressed people who finally got their homeland back and have been under attack ever since. Americans feel the Jews are entitled to this this tiny sliver of land that was theirs long before Muhammed roamed the deserts of Arabia.
Their occupation of the West Bank started as an attempt to stop the attacks that kept coming (way before Hamas). Granted, the occupation has become brutal and counterproductive to long term peace. But they are still seen as the victims by most Americans because they have been under constant attack and are trying to protect themselves.
There is lots of blame and culpability to go around on all sides. Just as you are perplexed by America's uwavering and seemingly unapologetic support of Israel, equally educated and sensitive Americans wonder the same thing about supporters of Palestinians. How can they not understand the consequences Palestinians have brought by their violent opposition to the state of Israel since 1948?
If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel. -Anonymous
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*Originally posted by underthedome: *
If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel. -Anonymous
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Ho wonder he wanted to remain anonymous after making such a silly remark.
Seminole your logic that Jews roamed the deserts of Arabia before Mohammed and therfore they are entitled to this land, should apply to America as well and you should return the country to the very same people who were roaming there well well before you or your ancestors even set foot there.
Chosen1 - It's you and your brothers who use that logic. It just a matter of How far back one is willing to go. Anyways there is a major flaw in your logic, which is unlike your ARAB brothers, Native Americans aren't blasting themselves in Public places, instead they have learnt to live peacefully. Sooner or later, Arabs have to learn to live with Israel as well.
kabir:
It is quite interesting to me that you don't differentiate between "Arabs" and "Palestinians" in making your argument.
Ironically, that is quite consistent with the stance of the Arab governments at the time of the Partition and for decades later. In their view, there was no such thing as Palestine and no such thing as Palestinians. The very concept of a Palestinian struggle is a relatively new phenomenon which was promoted by Arabs only after the Arab governments failed miserably in their own land grabs and occupations.
Arab governments did NOT oppose the Partition because it did not give enough land to Palestinians. They opposed it because the land was not given to them. Syria thought much of what is now Israel and the occupied territories was historically Syria. Jordan thought it was part of TransJordan. The occupier of the West Bank for the first 20 years after the Partition was Jordan. The people occupied were not called Palestinians: Instead, they were called Jordanians. No talk of a Palestinian homeland separate and apart from Jordan occured. There was nothing stopping Jordan from giving the West Bank to the Palestinians way back then. That is, nothing stopping them except the desire to do so.
The land given to form Israel in 1947 is not occupied land. It is Israel.
The Palestinians had a homeland given to them at the same time. Thanks to the selfishness of their Arab brothers, they did not take it. It was not Israel that killed that proposal. It was the Arab governments who chose to fight Israel for the next few decades.
Now you and others want to equate Palestinians with Arabs as if they are all brothers who have all fought for 50 years for the same dream of a Palestinian homeland. Now that is a crock of you-know-what.
The existence of Hamas more or less coincides with when the Arab/Israeli struggle ended and was replaced by the Palestinian/Israeli struggle. For all their tanks, air forces, artillery and troops, the Arabs failed miserably against Israel which just led to Israel confiscating more and more land. The Arabs gave up. The Palestinians having no tanks, air forces, artillery and troops gave birth to Hamas and the extremists.
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*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
Chosen1 - It's you and your brothers who use that logic. It just a matter of How far back one is willing to go. Anyways there is a major flaw in your logic, which is unlike your ARAB brothers, Native Americans aren't blasting themselves in Public places, instead they have learnt to live peacefully. Sooner or later, Arabs have to learn to live with Israel as well.
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Asif go and read Seminole's post. He said the following:
Americans feel the Jews are entitled to this this tiny sliver of land that was theirs long before Muhammed roamed the deserts of Arabia.
Got it.
Using his logic the Red Indians are entittled to the land called America as well. Or as usual you are going to use the famous American double standards here as well.
Kabir,
First, let's answer your questions about Americans' views of israel, and then let's ask a few questions.
Americans do not like Israeli's because of the way they look, sound, act or smell, nor do they dislike Arabs for those same reasons. What a pile of crap. They consider Israel to be an underdog, very similar to the way you now feel about the Palestinians. Much as the Israeli's have the Palestinians, surrounded and oppressed, the Israeli's have spent every moment of thier statehood surrounded. And for some reason, for centuries the Jews have been oppressed.
My daughter recently did a "field trip" to New York City to see the Holocaust museum. (costs of the buses was paid for...Hmmm). The Jews do a good job of educating Americans, and participating in the democracy. Muslim groops are not as well organized and integrated into the inner workings of the country. In almost every city or town, Jews vote, participate in politics, donate money and time to political causes, and take an active roll in the governance of the country. Muslims are way behind on these things, but there is no barrier to thier participation.
Now let me ask you a few things. First, Israel is "at peace" with Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan. Why are these Arab states not threatening Israel with tanks on the border if emotions are so high regarding the Palestinians?
Second, Israel and Egypt have been "at peace" for the better part of 30 years. Israel "gave back" the Sinai, and there has been no armed conflict with the Egyptians for 30 years or so. Why are the Egyptians able to negociate and hold a peace with Israel, but not the Palestinians?
Third, "President" Arafat was "elected" once. If any leader in a democracy had experienced 30 years of open war as a leader of his people, he would have been replaced long ago. Why is it that the Palestinians cling to someone who has not given them peace? Why is it that the Palestinians continue to support someone with such an abysmal record? What do they have to fear from a true change in leadership to try to find a just and fitting peace?
Fourth, and this is my personal favorite. I believe that most Americans would support Israel and Palestine equally, except for one thing, that is the tactics of the war that is currently being waged. When the Israeli's shoot a rocket at an Hamas leader, the INTENT is to kill an enemy, an important leader of an enemy movement that wishes the complete destruction of Israel. When a suicide bomber blows up a bus full of old people, working class people, children and students, what is the INTENT ? The INTENTIONAL targeting of civilians delegitimizes the Palestinian cause, and allows the Jewish lobbies to paint them as terrorists. You may not understand or agree with this, but the concept of INTENTIONALLY targeting innocent lives is visceral and repulsive to Americans. Americans who believe in the cause of the Palestinians are repulsed by the tactics, and must distance themselves from these acts. Myvoice and I have long argued that RESISTANCE could take many other forms, and particularly in an age that has the media broadcasting world-wide. A suicide bomber could douse himself in gasoline, set himself ablaze in a town square, and have it broadcast world-wide to show the desperation of the occupation. What the heck, he is going to die in the bombing anyway, Right? By killing innocents he alienates Americans.
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*Originally posted by chosen1: *
Using his logic the Red Indians are entittled to the land called America as well. Or as usual you are going to use the famous American double standards here as well.
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Chosen1 - the day you and your brothers in the Middle East recognize the state of Israel, Peace will return. Go and read the History of Arab-Israel and find out how the Arab world has been living in denial for last 50+years. They think that this land belongs to them only and Israel doesn't have a right to exist.
By bringing the RED-INDIAN theory again and again you prove nothing but the fact that you have lost the argument. Once again - Read my last post again. RED INDIANS are not flying planes into WTC, neither are they blasting themselves at public places, they are living peacefully in America accepting the fact that this land belongs to them as much it belongs to African Americans, Anglo Americans, Chinese, Indians or anyone else. They are pretty happy with it.
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*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
Chosen1 - the day you and your brothers in the Middle East recognize the state of Israel, Peace will return. Go and read the History of Arab-Israel and find out how the Arab world has been living in denial for last 50+years. They think that this land belongs to them only and Israel doesn't have a right to exist.
By bringing the RED-INDIAN theory again and again you prove nothing but the fact that you have lost the argument. Once again - Read my last post again. RED INDIANS are not flying planes into WTC, neither are they blasting themselves at public places, they are living peacefully in America accepting the fact that this land belongs to them as much it belongs to African Americans, Anglo Americans, Chinese, Indians or anyone else. They are pretty happy with it.
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You have obviously chosen to ignore the fact that the argument was not started by me.
Secondly while red indians are indeed not doing that, the Americans are not carrying out genocide either of them. Remember the Israeli genocides at Shabra, Shatila, Jenin. If such instances were taking place in America the same would happen there as well.
Chosen1 - If you read the 1st line of this thread you will know who started this. Israel has a right to exist and The Arabs have to recognize its existence.
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Secondly while red indians are indeed not doing that, the Americans are not carrying out genocide either of them. Remember the Israeli genocides at Shabra, Shatila, Jenin. If such instances were taking place in America the same would happen there as well.
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Atleast you accept that Red Indians are not doing what the ARABS are doing. Now apply that logic of yours in reverse, If Arabs stop their repeated attacks on Israel, may be there is a chance for PEACE in the GULF.
Arabs were the first one to Attack Israel in 1948,1967,1973 and again in 1982. Israel has a right to self defend.
Israel should give Palestinians their own homeland as per the road map. But Hamas is still a bunch of terrorists who deserve what is coming to them. End of story.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
Chosen1 - the day you and your brothers in the Middle East recognize the state of Israel, Peace will return. Go and read the History of Arab-Israel and find out how the Arab world has been living in denial for last 50+years. They think that this land belongs to them only and Israel doesn't have a right to exist.
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Do you even know who these Palestinians are? You are talking like you have been following the Palestinians/Israelis from they day they were born.
These Palestinians are the same jews who convereted to Islam unlike the jews living in Israel who were brought to Palestine by the Britishers after these jews got their asses kicked from every single part of the Europe.
any sane person who is in touch with world affairs will tell you that all this talk of fighting the terror first talk of israel is a eye wash. the last sincere effort made by israel towards peace was by late president who was assasinated.
mr sharon never wants to give away land and he delibrately chose to attack hamas when road map was on course
its clear hamas was created in 1987 how many years after occupation? nearly 40. and hamas was a reaction to the israeli strangulation of arabs
why was the peaceloving israel hanging on to occupied land before 1987? at that time plo was its target. the bottom line is the black coats dont want to give away land and greater israel is thier ultimate dream and americans are hand in glove with black coats for thier domestic reasons
IMHO, instead of blaming each other, which has been going on since God knows when, we should try to come up with the solutions of the whole Middle-East problem, so that we in the process dont become a problem. I'll start a new thread sometime very soon, where we all can come up with the ideas about how to solve the Middle-East problem, without hurting anybodys religious sentiment.