Do you believe that Gullaam Mirza was a prophet or a messenger?
both the terms ned to be defined before i reply.
Well... as for as Prophet Mohammad is concerned he is a prophet (in English one who knows the future "I am no weather-prophet.) as well as messenger (from God). Now there could be people who claim to be carrying message of God, like Lord Krishna in Geeta, and himself a God. (In Hindus, this is common. Rajaneesh claimed that he is God and that everyone is God and part of same energy or whatever muck. But did not claim to be messenger.) There could be people who claim to be prophet, i.e. could see future, lots of roadside pirs have some prophecies evry now and then, but not claim to have any message from God. The question is what did Mirza sahib claim?
Or to paraphrase it differently, (if English words are a problem since original writings of Mirza Sahib were probably in Urdu) can you tell us the phrase used about what he was. Did he say he was Nabi? I think he also said that he was Lord Krishna. Does it mean that he claimed he was the God. Or he claimed to be prophet or messenger who is not a prophet, i.e. with no extraordinary abilities, or could not see future or perform miracles or whatever but nonetheless carried message of God.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited January 20, 1999).]
Jewels of insignificance
If i define the 2, then you will give me your view on what he was. But rather, i would like to know, what he claimed to be, a messenger or a prophet? Rasool or nabee?
Assalam-O-Alaikum,
I am back on this religous discuusion after a month. I Found out that there are many new threads about ahmadi believes. I also found out that "Jewels of Insignificance" was the only person replying to these threads So i thought that I should try to share his load.
As far as this thread is concerned, brother Jewel was very right to say that these terms should be defined first. The reason is that most of the people don't know yhe meaning of these words.
According to best of my knowledge, Mirza Sahib claimed to be a "gher-Sharai-Nabi" that means a person who doesn't bring a new shariat but preaches the old one. (see his book: Aik Ghulti ka Izala). For example, Hazrat Musa (AS) brought a shariat. Then hundreds of prophets came who didn't bring a new shariat but try to spread and teach the same shariat. Similarly, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) brought the shariat and his shariat is the last shariat which cannot be changed but when people forget the teachings of Holy prophet (SAW), then another person is required to perform the same job as the prophets after Harat Musa (AS) did. Secondly, Mirza Sahib never claimed to change a single word of Quran or Quranic teachings. Similarly, he said that his duty is just to spread the teachings of Prophet Muhammad and not to change it.
Now I will try to explain his claim to be "Lord Krishna". These informations are often not delivered to you in a correct way. Mualvi people will just tell you that he claimed to be Krishna, Dawood etc. and they will never tell you that what he said after that or what explanation did he provide for his claim. The very simple answer to this question is that he himself didnt claim but this is according to the teachings of Quran and Hadith. One of the signs of Mahdi is that in a way he would be the person who is actually that old prophet. Now this seems very confusing!!!! But let me remind you that all the prophets of God promissed their people that they would reappear, including Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) (see sura Jumma). So when I said that he would be the same person as those old prophets, I didnt mean that he will have the same body and stuff, as you might think. Normally people believe that Krishan or Budha were not the prophets of God. But according to the Ahmadi believe Krishan and Budha were prophets of God and their teachings were changed by the people, just like the teachings of Jesus (AS) and MUSA (AS). So as Hazrat Krishana was a prophet of God so Mirza sahib claimed to be his representative. Let me tell you, MIRZA SAHIB NEVER CLAIMED TO BE GOD. In the end you said that he had no extra-ordinary abailities and he cannot see the future. This is wrong. He had many miracles and had extra-ordinary capabilities and he saw the future, his prophecies are becoming true which he made under the devine guidence.
KHUDA HAFIZ and EID MUBARIK
Dear PG,
My attention diverted from the topic to a little point that you addressed. Krishna, the prophet of god, sent to the part of the world where the hindus live, did not claim to be god. although geeta might be a proof over the false belief, it is obvious that geeta, like the the rest of the books, have been changed by people.
Christians believe that jesus, the prophet of god, claimed to be a god. we as muslims obviously believe that jesus did not claim to be god, and that this false beleif induced into christians later on. same is the case with krishna.
We as ahmadis believe that krishna was a rightful and pious prophet of allah, whose teachings have been changed later on, just as in the case of jesus, moses, abraham, jacob, jonah..and all others, who were sent by allah. it belongs to a muslim, to recognize all the prophets of allah.
as far as the claim of hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed sahab qadiani to be krishna is concerned.. it would be a prejudiced decision to believe in something until you have actually read it and are sure of what was meant from it.
"Allah, the god of the earth and sky, have not once, but repeatedly informed me that i am Krishna for hindus, and maseeh for christians and muslims."
( lecture of sialkot, page 32, first edition)
he has further explained in his other book, that allah have informed him that krishna, sent to the aryans, was a pious person, and a prophet of his times. In hindus, the word "awtaar" is the same as the word "nabi" as in urdu. The books of hindu religion informed of an awtaar, who will come in the last ages. most of the religions of the world believe in a saviour who will arrive in the last ages. Muslims believe that saviour will arrive in the last ages, and will revive the teachings of allah, the ways of prophet muhammad, and the spirit of koran. Hindu books say that this saviour will be like krishna. krishna has two characteristics, 'ruder', the killer of wild animals and swines, i.e. the one who fights of the evils through logic and godly signs. the second characteristic is 'gopal', the one who brings up cows, or in straight words, the one helpful to good. both these qualities are to be present in the the promised maseeh of islam too. Mirza ghulam ahmad sahab got informed by god that he is the promised maseeh, and possesses both the qualities. So one of the names allah has associated him with, is krishna.
Dear Qasim,
i appreciate your approach to the topic, and i think you have a resonably good point as to what you demanded in your previous post. here are some words of mirza sahab as to what he claims to be.
" God, the merciful, because of the love and submission to prophet muhammad, and because of my submission to, and the act of following, his book, has included me with the ones he talks to. He has provided me with the knowledge which can not be learned. He has informed me of many hidden secrets. He has filled my breast with many facts and arts, and have informed me repeatedly, that these gifts and givings, these mercies and kindnesses, these declarations and attentions, these presents and accordances, these conversations and adresses, are all due to submission and love of prophet muhammad, peace be pon him, who is the seal of prophets."
(baraheen-e-ahmadiya)
"This claim has not been made by anyone else in the nation of prophet muhammad, allah has given this name to me, and i deserve this name because allah said so.... from prophecy i do not mean that i, naoozobillah, stand in competition to prophet muhammad and claim to be a prophet. and i have not brought any new religion. i claim coversation with allah, and i name this conversation, as told by allah, as prophecy (nabuwat)."
(khutba-e-ilhaamya page 35)
"I am a rasool and a nabi, but without a new religion. i have not refused to claim to be a nabi and rasool in this meaning, and god has called me with the names of nabi and rasool.... one point that should be kept in mind is that even though i have been called by the names of nabi and rasool, i have been informed by god, that these gifts are not on me directly, but there is a presence, because of whom these gifts are directd to me ( or in other words.. these gifts are due to my submission to that presence).. and that is prophet muhammad, peace be upon him. keeping in mind this relation, and staying within this relation... i am a nabi as well as a rasool, i.e. i have been sent(rasool), and god have shown me the hidden (nabi).By this way, the seal of "khatamul anbiya" is not broken."
(aik ghalti ka azaala, page 908)
"this is a strange heartlessness which is not comprehendable, that when all the promised signs have been displayed with my claim, and the tries aganist me have failed, but still you wait for someone else? yes this is true that i have not physically descended from the sky, and i have not come in the world for war and bloodshed, i have come for peace and friendship, but i have been sent by god. i foretell, that after me, till the doomsday, there will be no such imam mehdi who causes restlessness thru war and bloodshed, and no such maseeh will come, who descends physically from the sky. stop waiting for the two, these are just wishes which all the people of this age will take with them to their graves. no maseeh will descend, no killer-mehdi will arrive, the maseeh, the mehdi that was to come, has arrived, and it is me, and allahs promise has been fulfilled. the person who does not accept me, is arguing with allah as to why allah did this."
(tableegh-e-risaalat book 10 pages 77-78)
I always considered Qadiani community to be illiterate and that they lack the islamic knowledge but i did not knew they are stupid and foolish also.
EVERY QADIANI HERE HAS BEEN SHOUTING THAT HAZRAT EISA ALAIHISSALAM IS DEAD THEN WHY mirza SAID THAT
""the maseeh, the mehdi that was to come, has arrived, and it is me""
Taken from insignificance's post
(tableegh-e-risaalat book 10 pages 77-78)
From the above statement one can clearly understand that mirza believed that Hazat Maseeh alaihissalam was to come and declared that he was the one, it means that he believed that Maseeh alaihissalam was not dead. SO WHY ARE YOU ALL SHOUTING AGAINST YOUR OWN mirza.
Secondly, according to mirza yasir
"According to best of my knowledge, Mirza Sahib claimed to be a "gher-Sharai-Nabi" that means a person who doesn't bring a new shariat but preaches the old one. (see his book: Aik Ghulti ka izala)"""
Subhan'Allah, Allah SWT has made him a liar in his own claim. Just see,
Gher = anti or non
Sharai = Shariat / deen / religion
Nabi = Prophet / messanger.
similar example is gher mohazzib insan which mean a man who is not mohazzib.
So the meaning of gher sharai nabi means a nabi which has nothing to do with shariat. Subhan'Allah.
Ok, lets forget this, my question is if gher sharae nabi means what you have mentioned above then it mean anybody of us who preaches the deen of Prophet SAW is a nabi, isn't it ??? b'cos we are not preaching a new religion but the same old shariat of Muhammad SAW.
Please can any ahmedi clarify this for me.
Well, 'gher' need not mean antagonistically. gher-hazir is absent but not necessarily against attendance. so gher-sharai may mean without shariat but not against shriat/religion or without religion.
Just wondering.
Dear Abdulla,
You have written in your post, "I always considered Qadiani community to be illiterate and that they lack the islamic knowledge but i did not knew they are stupid and foolish also"
You have proven that you are quite illiterate and don't even know Urdu Language. Please go and attend some grade 2 or 3 classes, so you can learn the meaning or word "gher" and how to use it. The term "Gher-Sharai-Nabi" is a very common term and is even used by your own Mualvis. Even Mr.PG who is not from our side has rejected your meaning of the word "Gher"
Your second Question was " my question is if gher sharae nabi means what you have mentioned above then it mean anybody of us who preaches the deen of Prophet SAW is a nabi, isn't it ??? b'cos we are not preaching a new religion but the same old shariat of Muhammad SAW." Now you know that Gher-Sharai-Nabi is not a new idea, I gave the answer of this question in my previous post when I said that, "Hazrat Musa (AS) brought a shariat. Then hundreds of prophets came who didn't bring a new shariat but tried to spread and teach the same shariat." Now, we all know that not everybody in Hazrat Musa's Ummah was a Nabi. Only few people achieved this point. The answer is that Nabuat is only achieved when a person trevels in the way of Allah and reaches a point very close to him. What I mean is that its a point which is only achieved by the exceptionaly good servants of Allah. It is just like army (not exactly but have some resemblence). A man starts from a very low rank and is promoted to higher ranks finally he reaches the rank of General and is appointed as the CHIEF OF THE ARMY STAFF. Not every army person is appointed as Chief of the army staff, Although they have the same duties. So even if you start preaching Islam, you cant just become a Nabi. This would be a very good thing to do and you will certainly be promoted by God, but doesn't mean that you will reach the rank of Nabuat. As in army not every body reaches that highest point. In Quran, God has told all the Muslims how to get to the Nabuat. In verse No. 70 or (69) of Sura-Nisa, God has told that if you follow God and Holy prophet (SAW), you will be included in Nabis, Sidiqs, Shuhada and salihins. So this is the only way to get the Nabuat and that's how Hazrat Mirza sahib got Nabuat.
You showed you illiterateness again when you said,
"""EVERY QADIANI HERE HAS BEEN SHOUTING THAT HAZRAT EISA ALAIHISSALAM IS DEAD THEN WHY mirza SAID THAT
"the maseeh, the mehdi that was to come, has arrived, and it is me""
Taken from insignificance's post (tableegh-e-risaalat book 10 pages 77-78)
From the above statement one can clearly understand that mirza believed that Hazat Maseeh alaihissalam was to come and declared that he was the one, it means that he believed that Maseeh alaihissalam was not dead. SO WHY ARE YOU ALL SHOUTING AGAINST YOUR OWN mirza."""" (Taken from Abdulla's post)
Probaly you have never read the history of Hazrat Issa (AS) and you don't know anything about the Ahmadi believes you are just here to give remarks like the one you have given above.
I wrote in my previous post, "Secondly, Mirza Sahib never claimed to change a single word of Quran or Quranic teachings. Similarly, he said that his duty is just to spread the teachings of Prophet Muhammad and not to change it." We all know that Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) prophecized that a Messiah will come in his Ummah. How can Mirza Sahib change that??? He firmly believed in the advent of Messiah other wise how can he claim to be Messiah?? This is a totally dumb question that you have asked. BUT THE REAL QUESTION IS THAT WHO WILL BE THAT MESSIAH??????? Of course Hazrat Issa cannot come because according to Ahmadia believes he is dead. and we also know that dead people cannot come back in this world. In verse 100 and 101 of Sura-i-Momin Allah has said that once somebody dies he cannot come to this world again. So obviously that person has to be SOMEBODYELSE.
I am not saying a very strange thing. This is proven by the history. LET ME GIVE YOU SOME EXAMPLES:
The looks of Hazrat. Issa described in the other Hadith is different from the looks of Messiah to come. Note ::: this is not the exact translation here please see the reference for exact translation) Prophet Mohammud (S.A.W) siad, "I saw both Musa and Issa (Mosses and Jesus) in a dream. Issa had red colour and curly hair and broad chest whereas Musa was.... now Hazoor (S.A.W) is describing the looks of Musa) (For reference: Bukhari Volume 2 book: Budul-Khalq or Kitab bad-ul-Khalq) in the other Hadith the prophet Mohammed is describing another dream, "I saw a dream and I saw that I am doing the TAWAF around the Kaba and suddenly a man came infront of me. his colour was brown (which we say Gundumi in urdu) his hair were staright and long and drops of water were falling of his head. I asked that who is he? I was told that he is the son of Mary (Ibne-Mariyam) and then I saw another person who........ after this the Dajal is described (For referenve See: Bukhari, Volume 2, Kitab-ul fitan, page 146) Now let's compare these two. Red colour and brown colour (Gundumi) Curly hair and Straight hair. Now how can you say that both of these are the same person. the second Hadith describes exactly fits the looks of Hazrat Mirza sahib (Gundumi colour, straight hair). So obviously we say that Ibne-Mariyam is not Hazrat Issa in this Hadith. Instead it is some other person who has the properties of Hazrat Issa. The last statement seems too vague unless I describe it in detail.
Before giving any specific example, let me explain this point to you by the examples of common language. If you say that somebody is Hatam Tai (who was a very generous man) obviously you doesn't mean that Hatam Tai has came out of his grave and is standing in front of you. You mean that the person whom you are calling Hatam is very generous and has the same properties as Hatam Tai had. If you say that somebody is Rustum (A very brave man of Persia). What do you mean??? Do you mean that he is the exact same person or he has the same properties as Rustum (bravery). Of course the properties are same but the persons are different. If you say that somebody is a Sher (lion) you again mean that he is very brave. It doesn't mean that he has a tail and he lives in Jungle. So, similarly the messaih will have the same properties and jobs as the Hazrat Issa had. Why we can't apply the rules of language to this Hadith. Hazoor (S.A.W) was speaking arabic and arabic language has these properties. Now I am giving you some specific examples where this type of change of names happened.There was a promise with Bani-Israiel that Hazrat Ilyas (A.S) will come before Jesus. Hazrat Ilyas passed about 850 years before Jesus but according to Jewish believes he is in the heavens and will come back before Jesus (Salatin Chapter 2 Ayat 11) From this prediction the Jews thought that Harat. Ilyas (also called Ailiya) will come back and when Jesus claimed to be the messiah as described in the books, the Jews asked him where is the Ilyas who was supposed to come before Jesus. Do you know what was the responce of Jesus? He said that the prediction of coming of Ilyas doesn't literaly means that he will come instead he said, Yahya (also called Yohana) is the Ilyas, the one who has open eyes see it(Mati, chapter 11 Ayat 14). Now, you have seen that the names of one person is used for other person. And this is the issue which all Suni and Shia Ulama agree.Similarly, it is written in Quran that Jesus prophecized the advent of a prophet named Ahmad (Saf: Ayat 7) all the muslims accept that this prophecy has been fulfilled by Prophet Mohammud (S.A.W). And we all know that his name was Muhammad not Ahamd (S.A.W) and Hazoor (S.A.W) claimed to be Ahmad after his claim of prophethood (Nabuat). None of the Hadith proves that he was ever called Ahmad before that or any of your elder had proposed that name. The only explanation of this is that he had the properties of Ahmadiat.In Quran, Hazrat. Mariyam (A.S) has been callled Bint-i-Imran. We all know that his father's name was not Imran. Instead, the name of Hazrat. Musa's father was Imran. How will you explain this?????????? The only way to explain this is to follow the rules of above examples.
There are also many similarities between the jobs of Hazrat Issa (AS) and the promised Messiah. Maybe in future I will explain those too.
Now this point is obvious that Mirza Sahib believed in the advent of Messiah and all the Ahmadi people also do. The Promised Messaih has to be a diiferent person but with the same properties and jobs as those of Hazrat Issa. Jews aquired the wrong path because they demanded original Ilyas. Please don't follow Jews because the new Messaih has to be a different person.
I didn't knew i have to do this also, anyways
Gher Hazir = who is not hazir
Gher Moazib = who is not moazib
Gher Islami = which is not islami
Gher Ikhlaqi = which is not Ikhlaqi
Gher Insani = which is not insani
Similarly
Gher Sharai = which is not sharai
Still any doubts??
Mr. mirza yasir
Everybody cannot be the CHIEF OF ARMY STAFF but there is always a replacement. Forget it, Everybody cannot reach the position of a Nabi, but if we work hard, any body can be a Nabi, isn't it.
La haola wala quwwata illlah billlah
Maseeh is used in Quran and ahadith only for Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam, If Prophet SAW said Maseeh will come, it means Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam will come.
Still if you have doubts then read the following ahadiths
Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.
Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
Sahih Muslim - Book 1, Number 0293:
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah.
Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 6924:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour will not come until the Romans land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people on Earth at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them).
When they arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans will say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from among us. Let us fight them. The Muslims will say: Nay, by Allah, we shall never turn aside from you and from our brethren so that you may fight them.
They will then fight and a third (part) of the army, whom Allah will never forgive, will run away. A third (part of the army), which will be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eyes, would be killed. The third who will never be put on trial will win and they will be the conquerors of Constantinople.
As they are busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, Satan will cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your families. They will then come out, but it will be of no avail. When they reach Syria, he will come out while they are still preparing themselves for battle, drawing up the ranks.
Certainly, the time of prayer will come and then Jesus (peace_be_upon_him), son of Mary, descend and will lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah see him, it will (disappear) just as salt dissolves in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely. Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).
Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 6931:
Narrated Hudhayfah ibn Usayd Ghifari:
Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion) He said: What do you discuss about? (the Companions) said: We are discussing about the Last Hour.
Thereupon he said: It will not come until you see ten signs before and (in this connection) he made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), The Gog and Magog, and landslides in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.
Sunan Abu Dawood
Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.
Now its clear to everybody from Quran and from ahadiths that Hazrat Eisa alaihissalam is not dead. And any discussion on this now is unnecessary. The truth has been conveyed to you, and now we are not responsible for any thing, do not blame us on the day of judgement. And its up to you know if you want to accept it or reject it.
Wa ma alaina illal balagh
mirza yasir
Please refrain from using the translation of the Holy Quran you are using right now.
The Ayat 69 of Surah Nisa is like this
004.069
YUSUFALI: All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!
PICKTHAL: Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!
SHAKIR: And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!
Now see your statement :
""""how to get to the Nabuat. In verse No. 70 or (69) of Sura-Nisa, God has told that if you follow God and Holy prophet (SAW), you will be included in Nabis, Sidiqs, Shuhada and salihins. So this is the only way to get the Nabuat and that's how Hazrat Mirza sahib got Nabuat. """"
Do not try to change the meanings of Quran and change the translation you are using.
Dear Abdulla,
I never knew that you will still stick to you claim about the meaning of Gher Sharai Nabi. Please go to Kinder Garten and start learning some urdu. It will help you in future.
Please also learn some Arabic. A common urdu speaking person who don't even know the translation of Quran will tell you that the meaning of the word "Ma'a" "within" or in urdu "mey sey". NOT "with" or "in the company of" (in this ayat, these tranlations are also used but doesn't fit here as I will explain).
Even if we forget the word Nabi for few moments and just look at the other three gifts of God i.e. Sidiq, shuhada, Saleh. You are saying that nobody can be a Nabi. O.K (for few moments) According to your believes they will be with the Nabis (or in company of). So Please Please Please tell me that if there will be any Sadiq, any Shahid, any Saleh in the Ummah of Our Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW)????? That's very confusing for me. If we accept your translation then that means there will be NO SIDIQ, NO SHAHID, NO SALEH in the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) all of the people will be only with or in company with the sidiq, shahid and saleh people of other Ummahs. I can't believe it!!!! Prophet Muhammad said that his Ummah is the best of all. What kind of Ummah is this who doesn't have any sadiq, shahid or saleh while the other Ummahs have Nabis, Sadiqs, Shahids, Salehs. Please Explain this point for me. The word "Ma'a" is only used once. That means that it is for all gifts i.e. for Nabuat, for sidiqiat, for shahadat, and for salehiat. We know that Muslims had many of Such people. Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) was called Sadiq. Is it against this ayat?? (Na-Aouzabillah) Please go and tell the people that Hazrat Abu-Bakar was not a Sadiq, he was just with or incompany with other sidiqs(Na-Aouzabillah), The Ummah of Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) never had any Shahid, all of them were with the Shuhada (Na-Aouzabillah), there were no salehin in the Ummah, all of them were with other Salehin (Na-Aouzabillah).
Mr. Abdulla, Aqal key Nakhon Lo. Don't do such translations which put yourself in trouble. You probaly know the Dua taught in Quran "wa-tawafana Ma'al Abrar" (sura Aal-i-Imran Verse No.194 or 193) Does this mean that give us death WITH the Nayk people. Personally you don't want to be Nayk, when you pray this.
Similarly, Nabuat can be given to anybody who fulfills its requirement. It is very unfair that a person strives very hard in the way of Allah and raches a very high point but the God doesn't give him Nabuat but gives Nabuat to other persons who strives in the same way. So please take some time and think about this ayat.
Secondly, you have given a lot of Ahadis and I have read all those many times but you didn't get my point which i have raised in the previous post. If Hazrat Mariyam (AS) can be said as Bint-i-Imran although she was not, why can't Ibne-Mariyam be used for another person. If the Ilyas that was supposed to come can be replaced by Yohana, why can't the Messiah be a different person. All the Hadith which you have written there talks about the comming of Ibne-Mariyam. and I have told you that he won't be that same person he will just have the same properties. then why are you insisting. What explanations can you give for the examples of name changing given above.
Please take some time to think and don't just post your replies. It will waste your time and those of others too
KHUDA HAFIZ
MIRZA YASIR
Mr. mirza yasir
The amount of urdu i know is alhamdolillah enough for me, whereas gher sharai nabi is concerned i have given many examples which you ignored, i don't know why and insisted that i should go to a Kindergarden. Anyways.
The place where i live, in the Arabic Kindergardens, there is a book. In the first chapter there is picture of a boy (Hamad) and a girl (Sahar) standing together and one sentence is written at the bottom, i.e. Hamad ma'a Sahar. Now according to your translation the meaning should be Hamad is within Sahar. OR Hamad Sahar mey sey hay. But they translate it as Hamad is with Sahar. This book is the first chapter of the book and is taught in all Arabic Schools.
Apni jahalat ka muzahira kerna band kero, If you do not know about a thing, do not talk about it and as i told you before change the translation which you are using.
Dear Abdulla,
It seems to me that you have some serious trouble with your eyes. Whenever you read my post, you read half of it. I said that these translations are also used in arabic and I know that the meaning of Ma'a is also "with" but I said that it DOESN'T FIT HERE. I have nothing to do with your Hamad and Sahar because I already know the meaning.
After that, I gave a long long explanation of why we can't use the meaning "with" here. Let me tell you again. If we believe that people will not become prophets, they will be only with the prophets Then we also have to say that there will be no sidiq, No shahid, and No saleh in the ummah of Hazorr (SAW) which is IMPOSSIBLE. Please read the preavious thread for more deatails.
Secondly, you can't use "with" in the translation of "Ma'a-al-Abrar". How will you explain that.
Please Mr. Abdulla!! stop behaving like this. Instead of replying to my real topics and proof, you alwys come up with some new and strange ideas. Why don't you give me an explanation that how can you use the word "with" in this verse.
Sorry, I am very Jahil. I don't know anything. Please give me an explanation of the above verse So that I can believe in your aqal. THANK YOU
KHUDA HAFIZ
The ayat under discussion says one who follows Allah SWT and HIS Messanger SAW will be with the Prophets, Shaheed, ....
There is no ayat which says that no one can be a Shaheed or a Siddique or a good Muslim (Saleheen) but there are many many ayats and hadiths which says that THERE IS NO NABI AFTER PROPHET SAW. IS THAT CLEAR.
Ma'al Ibrar means with the good peole (good people)
Innal Ibrara lafi naeem wa innal fujjar lafil jaheem.
Hope this is clear.
Brothers Qaasim and Abdulla please remember this from the Quran as I will para-phrase, Allah jis key Ankhoon par pardey dal deyta hey us ko koi nahin hata sakta. You'll can bring all the proofs to them from the Quran but they will never agree cause maybe Allah(SWT) has meant it that way.
Later on
Zman
Dear Abdulla
you have asked, "IS IT CLEAR" and my reply is that "NO IT IS NOT"
You are again running away from this ayat. I just want to know about this ayat. This is very strange that at one place Allah says you will be saleh and at other place He says you will be with salehs , YOU WON'T BE A SALEH. I don't get it. If you follow God and His Prophet (SAW), of course you are a saleh. There is no point to say that you will be with them. your translation of "Ma'al Abrar" means that you don't want to be an Abrar, you just want to be with them. And this is a fact that I have many translation from the non-ahmadi people who have written Ma'al abrar means to be an abrar not to be with abrars. I will look at some specific references and tell you about that.
right now, its the end of my semester and my exams are going on, thats why I don't have enough time these days.
KHUDA HAFIZ
Sorry I posted the previous post twice. So I have just edited it(erased everything). I don't know how to delete this.
Khuda Hazfiz
[This message has been edited by mirzayasir (edited January 26, 1999).]
Re: A question for the Qaadyaanis ...
Astagfirullah.. ** Qaadyaanis are KAFIR... **
You guys are foolish..
Re: A question for the Qaadyaanis ...
^^ And who may you be to judge who is foolish in the eyes of Allah ?