A question ... especially for ....

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Flame of Life: Brother, I believe that you were attending some of Supreme Court hearings in CJ case, so what happened? You have not told us guppies yet that what Supreme Court has said regarding allegations against CJ? Can you please find out?

Did CJ used influence of his office to get his son admitted in medical college or not?
Did CJ use the office to get him government job or not?
Did CJ use to use his office to get facilities more than his entitlement or now?
Did CJ use to take bribe so that his son can use BMW?

Though there are many more questions, can you please find the answers to at least these few allegations (without taking help of acrobatically twisting answers of avoidance)?

Please, I missed the Supreme Court judgment. It’s really very important because what I came to know is that Supreme Court has said that to use influence by individuals in government office to benefit legally or illegally is everyone’s right and that corruption, nepotism, dishonesty and misuse of power in Pakistan is Pakistani heritage. Further, Supreme Court advised hard working Pakistanis that have no connections, that if they want to go anywhere in life, they should F*O from Pakistan to other decent countries where all citizen are equal in the eyes of Law, so that they can progress in life on their hard work.

If Supreme Court judgement is that than I would always call this Chaudhari Iftikhar a corrupt monkey, Supreme Court as Court of Supreme Corrupts and their decision as concession from government, but if Supreme Court has made judgment that there is no truth on allegations against Chief Justice, and that Government accepted that, then I would consider that CJ was innocent and Supreme Court is respectable, and government reference was due to malafied reasons.

It is very important, because if Supreme Court has given ruling that corruption, nepotism, dishonesty and misuse of power is heritage of Pakistan than it will make me understand a lot about Pakistani Psyche, that why dishonest people involved in corruption, nepotism and misuse of Power becomes hero for many Pakistanis and honest person becomes villain to them.

Please help, please do not brush my question aside, as that is very important that we know psyche of Pakistan and thus each other, where Pakistani society stands when it comes to dishonesty, nepotism, corruption and misuse of Power. Because, these are major elements of human character, that moulds future of a Nation, that what they value. Supreme Court represents people’s values. As a Nation, are we honest or dishonest?

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Re: A question ... especially for ....

remember how paul wolfowitz had to resign because he was deemed to have influenced the pay raise of his gf? what the cj was actually worse. cj, who is the head of highest judicial body of pak, had his son appointed to fia which is the highest law enforcement body in pak. essentially there was a huge conflict of issue related to the son being in law enforcement and i figure cj had ulterior motives for placing his son there. no moderately civilised country would permit this.

also i believe the real reason for govt's action was different. cj had serious conflicts with some senior judges of high court and this information provides an insight into cj's personality. personally i would give credence to the statement of the head of intelligence agency which indicated that cj was conniving against govt personalities. i think govt dropped this angle in order to avoid opening pandora's box. i do think govt will find a way to deal with cj in due time when political noise is much lower.

!! Mera Jee Chahta Hai !!
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Good point. However CJ supporters and all these fasadi (anarchist) lawyers won't listen.

Happy birthday to naina
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Brother; does that matter if they listen or not? If government would decide that they are not bother about CJ, they would ask him to leave, that’s all. No need to send reference to SJC as that is done by decent governments. If CJ is not decent, and does not want enquiries done on him, than government can show him the way without enquiry

What you think? Do you think courts have any means to do anything? They are just referring body that oversees conflicting interest of two parties and decide who is right within law that executives (parliament) have enacted. That is all. Once judges gave that judgment, it becomes duty of executive that they implement or enforce that judgment. If executives do not value judge decisions then what is the value of judges?

Chief Justice cannot even determine his own or other judges salary or entitlements. CJ cannot even decide what power they have. Well, probably right word is not even power as it can be mistake. Reality is that, judges have no inherent power. Judges only have directions (given certain laws, enacted by parliament, to follow) that they follow and decide what falls under those directions.

Judiciary is not like armed forces, intelligence agencies, or police forces that have teeth and can do what they like using that teeth, and that is the duty of executives to control those teeth.

Its like, executives are riders, armed forces, intelligence agencies, polices are wild animals they are riding and doing their day to day traveling fulfilling their job, whereas judiciary is small stick in the hand of the riders. As long as wild animals are tamed and listen to executives, stick can be used to control them, but if wild animals are gone out of control (due to wrong behaviour of riders … that is executives), stick is useless. Nevertheless, stick itself has no power of its own as they are dead piece of wood :)

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Re: A question ... especially for ....

Well in a country like Pakistan , where either you have to bribe or got to have source for even getting low paid clerical jobs , does a man on such a significant fix stays away for corruption and nepotism? No way mates , U need some graft to stay in power .

We used to have honest people like Fakhuruddin G Ibrahim but now they don’t produce such commodities any more !

the happy people thread
the happy people thread
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You mean deadwood! ;)

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hmmm... true :)

!! Mera Jee Chahta Hai !!
!! Mera Jee Chahta Hai !!
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Re: A question … especially for …

I was thinking about psyche of Pakistanis as Nation. I was just wondering about those khotas (donkeys) that are khotas (have no resources, money or connections) and come in support of those who due to their dishonesty, nepotism, corruption and misuse of power, keep them khotas where they are … be khotas … and do not let them khotas advance to become ghoras.:blush:

I asked, because until these khotas would love to stay khotays, Pakistan would always stay Nation of khotays, where only dishonest people would have any right to live decently. :smiley:

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Re: A question … especially for …

Saleem sahib,

I understand the frustration in some nationalist Pakistanis. However please do not go overboard in condemning this beautiful country.

Pakistan has survived even when odds are stacked against it.

here is a simple comparison to show where Pakistan stands

  1. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=5162275&postcount=2
  2. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=5162275&postcount=6

And here is the statistical analysis.
3. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=5162275&postcount=10

So yes we need to work hard, we need to get our act together, but a positive attitude is a must. Thanks!

!! Mera Jee Chahta Hai !!
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Brother, I am not disappointed of Pakistan or its future … I am just trying to put what I understand and what I think is best for a country, that is to say what is really wrong and expect that once it comes in discussion, something would be done.

Actually believe me, personally I am not too much disappointed with CJ decision. Not because I like or hate CJ or President Musharraf.

What I feel is that the decision has given a big stick to President (if he realises and decides to use it for betterment of Pakistan). Just imagine, because of that decision. …

Today President (at least legally) could not drop cases of BB and other corrupts in any negotiations (excuse: free judiciary).

Today opposition could not stop Presidential election in between 15th Sept – 15th October. (excuse: free judiciary)

Today, President could not make excuse to dissolve parliament earlier then due time. [Judiciary would not let it happen … hopefully ;)]

Today religious and political parties cannot break laws and expect concessions. [Judiciary is free and they would give verdict against that, means, executives have to follow laws]

Today, government can easily demolish all illegally constructed buildings (like so-called illegally constructed madrassas and mosques, or any illegally constructed buildings used for whatever purposes). [These are against the law. Judiciary is free and they can direct what government should follow]

Today, in the name of law, government can implement many things if they want to. [When there is will to do good, judiciary would be helpful, Judiciary has to follow laws and on paper, all laws that parliamentarian enact are normally good]

Today, no judge or lawyers could expect extra from government than what law allows. [Perceptions of conflicts between judiciary and executives’ means, judiciary should not expect sweeteners]

And so on: … As far as power to break the law, they are always there in the hand of those that have that power, but then that would be going against the law, as it was yesterday unlawful as today. Judiciary is not law enforcement body nor do they have that sort of resources (or power) to implement or enforce laws (even their own verdicts). They can only follow whatever laws are there and ask executives to implement or enforce that laws what they judiciary considers as law (from what is there in constitution).

Sometime thinking the good that can come from this decision make me feel bad when bringing all those allegations that was there against CJ that is now under the carpet. But then, I still believe that mentioning that would bring some awareness and if discussed a lot, in future, people (in power and positions) would not get involved in such devilish deeds.

I am hopeful for the country because as in any country Pakistan has good as well as bad. But from very poor, underdeveloped, divided, tribal and illiterate society that Pakistan was in 1947, only united in the name of Islam, Pakistan has come a long way and there are many good and committed people in Pakistan that to their best capacity, are always trying to stand against corrupt devils and trying to take masks from their faces.

~**~ Tussi Baray ----- Ho ~~~~ ~**~
~**~ Tussi Baray ----- Ho ~~~~ ~**~
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Re: A question ... especially for ....

And yea ... until we would not bring all the evils in Pakistan and mention that crudely and openly, try to brush evils under the carpet ... those evils would never show up and ego of some Pakistanis might get satisfied, they might start believing that problem is not even there. Many might not even admit that those evil exists, and that may be fine for some people (egoists) but that is not fine for Pakistan. Because for good of Pakistan, those evils should come up on surface and show up so that it can be tackled, sorted out and eliminated.

For truth and for progress, personalities, institutions, or posts, nothing is important. If anyone does anything wrong that effect country, than one have to give them stick. We have to realise that important is Pakistan, people of Pakistan (especially those that are poor and unprivileged), and future of Pakistan, not any person or institutions.

To me, if a dictator, a terrorist, an invader, a foreign power, a king, a tyrant or anyone )that came to power through whatever means) can bring progress to the country and make life of the people better, than that would be better than anyone that came through votes or whatever. Obviously, I would love to see a political party come to power (as it is expected that political parties, being representative of people, would work for the people), but if they are corrupt, it is best that they should be sent to dungeon (I won't shed any tears for them or for such democracy).

Though no doubt that democracy is better not because of anything but because IF the person in power is corrupt, it is easier to get that person out (if people are educated and realise that). But then, on itself democracy or whatever, that is immaterial. Important is the person that is in power and that the person in power is committed to the country or not, and that his rule is bringing good for the country or not.

Advantage of democracy is only that corrupt person can be thrown out of power (but than that does not always happen, and in Pakistan case it does not happen). Nevertheless, idea is to get into power a person that is good for the country and people of the country, regardless of the method that person came to power. [Method of getting to power is mean, not the end. Person in power is the end and what type that person is, is the real objective].

____---------Happy Birthday To ME----------_____
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^^ Good. So we are on the same page. I just disagreed with the tone of your earlier post in this thread where you said something like "Hum sab Khotay hain". Believe we have many people and even some Mullahs who are "not at all" a "khota".

Anyways keep up the good work!

Thanks.

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Well ... woh loog khota tou hain jo un loogon ka liya awaaz uthatay hain jo unhay khota hee dekhna chahtay hain :)

Just imagine that many came out to welcome CJ, even when the reference was on CJ doing nepotism. These people (I mean ordinary citizen that have no source, connection or money) never even thought that if CJ can deprive someone from getting medical education so that his son can do medicine, than obviously CJ could not have deprived that person (student that was suppose to get admission in place of CJ son) who was connected but it must be a child of ordinary khota citizen, right? Still this khota came out on roads for that CJ and wanted that CJ should not be punished on doing that. :)

What is the mentality here?

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And yea, I never wrote: ‘ham saab khotay hain' :) That would make all those khota who are damn clever (not even ghora, they are beasts of the jungle, like lions, tigers, wolves, hyenas, etc. and are keeping majority of Pakistani poor and deprived as khotas ... You should read my post with care :)

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When the Supreme Court releases the detailed judgment, it will be for the whole world to see. Public document. No acrobatics. How’s that? :slight_smile:

Edit: I just read past what I have quoted from ur text in my post…do I feel sorry or what. abhi say zehen bana liya aap nay? Abhi toh judgment ayee bhi nahi. Ho sakta hai, it says the President was morally corrupt for acting in mala fide against the CJP..phir kya ho ga aapka meri jaan? Isi liye kehta hoon, wait for the detailed judgment, lest u have to eat ur own words.

C ya :wave:

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Excellent question.

Is the CJ not accountable for his actions - is he above the law? That is what a lot of people are now asking, and which the detailed judgement will have to answer.

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Moderatlet civilized countries only permit holding constitution in abeyance, and COAS striking deals in secret at UAE palace to save the "khaal"

You want to be remembered in history
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and in case of Pakistan the army becomes the executing teeth.

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What I don't understand is that why didn't any government official file a case against him based on the all corruption evidence that they had prior to blatantly firing him out of nowhere? I mean did the government not have enough foresight to see how the opposition parties will have a field day on it and turn this issue into their own political gain? I am usually 100% behind the current government but sometimes it does extremely boneheaded stuff that makes it harder for me to defend it. Someone has to know the answer to this.

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Who judges the judges?

A question the Supreme Court is taking a long time to answer, as more and more people start asking this pertinent question.