very nice.
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most of the rulers I know in history of Islam fought mainly for worldly powers and control rather than to spread Islam. especially the ones in Indian sub-continent.
We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 24, 2001).]
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Hi Kumarakn!
Certainly agree with your comment that we should not base our understanding of a religion by what people may or may not practice that is why I solely rely on its scriptures to understand each religion. In this regards even commentaries made by peole are not included in my studies.
Earlier I refrained from posting the relevant texts as it could be misconstrued as an attack on Hinduism by our hindu brothers and sisters on this forum.
Since you have asked. I will reveal what I know concerning this matters and kindly verify the texts for its accuracy.
Firstly You must understand that scriptures when it is corrupted will have varying stories of the same event and have to be cross linked ( cross linking is a must for understanding scriptures since revelations are revealed on a need to know basis and Allah had revealed to mankind knowledge on a step by step basis as they comprehended it He revealed more concerning it)
So here are the many versions for the origin of shiva lingam worship in Hinduism.
ORIGIN OF HOLY SHIV LINGA
Lord Siva seduces the Pine Forest sages’ wives and is cursed for this immoral behavior. Origin of the holy Linga which is commonly worshipped in Hindu temples:
“When the sages saw Siva naked and excited they beat him and they said, ‘Tear out your linga.’ The great yogi said to them, ‘I will do it, if you hate my linga’, and he tore it out and vanished.” – Kurma Purana 2:38:39-41; cf. Haracaritacintamani 10:74; Yagisvaramahatmya 26a. 14.
In another version, the sages in the forest quote the legal texts regarding the penalty for seducing a guru’s wife when they punish Siva:
“You false ascetic, let your (Siva’s) linga fall to earth here. A shameless and evil man who has seduced another man’s wife should be castrated; there is no other punishment ever. A man who has seduced his guru’s wife should cut off the linga and testicles himself and hold them in his hands and walk until he dies.” – Siva Purana, Dharmasamhita 10:187-90; cf. B. K. Sarkar, pp.234-5.
MORE ON ORIGIN OF HOLY SHIV LINGA
Here is another origin of the holy Linga:
“… He (Siva) agreed to this and laughed, for he was secretly amused, and he said to Brahma, ‘There is no good use for this linga except for the creation of progeny.’ And as he said this he broke it off and threw it upon the surface of the earth. The linga broke through the earth down to the subterranean hell and went to the very sky. Visnu sought the end of it below, and Brahma flew upwards, but they did not find the end of it, for all their vital effort. Then a voice arose out of the sky as the two of them sat there, and it said, ‘If the linga of the god with braided hair is worshipped, it will certainly grant all desires that are longed for in the heart.’ When Brahma and Visnu heard this, they and all the divinities worshipped the linga with devotion, with their hearts set upon Rudra (Siva).” – Siva Purana, Dharmasamhita 49:23b-46, 74-86.
THE MAIN REASON WHY THE LINGA IS WORSHIPPED IS CONVEYED BY THIS VERSES:
Lord Brahma, Visnu & Siva rape Anasuya and are cursed. This is also an origin of the holy Shiv linga as Siva is cursed to be worshipped as the linga (phallus):
“One day the sage Atri was performing tapas with his wife Anasuya. Brahma, Visnu, and Siva came and offered him a boon, but Atri remained silent, meditating. Then the three gods went to Anasuya. Siva had his linga in his hand, Visnu was full of erotic feeling, and Brahma was beside himself with desire, saying to Anasuya, ‘Make love with me or I will die.’ When she heard this coarse speech, Anasuya made no reply, for, although she feared the anger of the gods, she was true to her husband. But they were overcome with delusion, and they raped her by force.** Then she became angry and she cursed Siva to be worshipped as a linga, Brahma to be worshipped in the form of a head, and Visnu to be worshipped as feet, in order to ridicule them all, and she cursed them all to be reborn as her sons. Because of this, Siva was reborn as Durvasas.”** – Bhavisya Purana 3:4:17:67-78.
References with publisher links or website please. And oh, not those Islamic hate web sites that explain how Hinduism came after Islam.
Kurma Purana 2:38:39-41; cf. Haracaritacintamani 10:74; Yagisvaramahatmya 26a. 14.
Siva Purana, Dharmasamhita 10:187-90; cf. B. K. Sarkar, pp.234-5.
Siva Purana, Dharmasamhita 49:23b-46, 74-86.
Bhavisya Purana 3:4:17:67-78.
Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all,
Thanks aishaA! Yes those are the exact scriptural references for those verses, kindly verify them by looking at its original in Sanskrit, translations mostly exclude this since they seem to provide a general overview avoiding the details. ( we should understand this since the nature of what is being revealed is not what has been preached by the swamis )
In my discussion with a hindu recently on this subject he quoted the following version as his rebuttal for the above version.
This version goes like this - Brahma, vishnu and siva went to test Anusuya’s devotion to her husband, so they went in her house as sages and asked her to serve food for them. She came along, ** but they said they have one condition before she serves food for them, and that she should serve naked. She was shocked, but then because of her devotion she could realize that it is the Gods who are playing with her and she accepted.** Then using her long and thick hair as her dress, she came and served the food, ** and the three sages made the wind slightly blow and give her more of a test.** This time she sprinkled water on them and changed them to children. Later in the day, Saraswati, Lakshmi and parvati came down searching for the Gods and they pleaded Anusuya to give them back and she agreed. And the Gods were given their true form back and they blessed Anusuya for her devotion to her husband and virtues.
This part that he conveyed only confirms that passage about the three being in the presence of this married woman ( which is forbidden in Hinduism) and requesting her to strip which morally guided people will not resort to ask and No woman with virtue will accept to do. IF common people will be ashamed of doing such things why would a god do it?
When I requested for exact verse numbers fro the above version, I get NO reply from this hindu.
Anyway what is important is that the other references confirms this when we read them in this order
That would be the order of its full version, that appears in bits and pieces in those sacred texts.
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited July 25, 2001).]
Publisher links, or ISBN number please…
Hindu scriptures are an ocean. And there are many many who have given many many intrepretations…
Please give me a publisher name. Or a valid web link -to see what kinda website(or webpage?) it is from.
Or if you are telling me you translated this with your immense knowledge of Holy Sanskrit, then it is acceptable as your personal intrepretation.
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: D
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 25, 2001).]
after all these are based on mythology.
in mythalogy anything goes depending upon
the writer and his state of mind on how much he drank soma.
I THINK WE ARE CERTAINLY GOING OUT OF THE TOPIC, KAHN_SAHIB WANTED TO KNOW THE LOGIC BEHIND "HINDUS WORSHIPPING SHIVA LINGA" , WHICH KUMARAKN EXPLAINED IT WITH THE BEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE.
I THINK THERE IS NO END TO THE CONTROVERSY OF ONES RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, AT THE END OF THE DAY THE SAME QUESTION AGAIN ARISES IS THERE A GOD? MAY BE NOT AS ACCORDING TO THE MATERIALISTIC WESTERN SOCIETY.
BUT IF THERE IS A GOD, THEN THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH, THERE CANNOT BE TWO TRUTHS REGARDING GOD BECAUSE EVERY RELGION HAS ITS OWN RELEGIOUS BELIEFS, AND IT IS UPTO AN INDIVIDUAL WHO ADOPTS THE CORRECT BELIEF.
I AM A MUSLIM AND I WOULD SAY ISLAM IS 100% TRUTH AND A RELGION OF AND FOR MANKIND.
MAY ALLAH PREVENTS US FROM HELL-FIRE AND MAY ALLAH RELIGHT THE MINDS OF THE
NON- BELEIVERS TO ACCEPT THE RIGHT PATH.AMIN.
[This message has been edited by faiz_warsi77 (edited July 25, 2001).]
khan for this physical world we live in
you know how important lingam is.that what
makes the world go around. imagine a world without it.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
Publisher links, or ISBN number please...
Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all
Hi kumarakn,
I see you posted again, I am based in the Philippines ( our timings may not be the same) so do be patient, I also have very difficult and expensive connections due to my location and my activity which involves monitoring various boards on the net. Participating in too many threads and forums means I cannot always be able to be respond immediately.
Anyway coming to your query.
Publishers in India will only publish what would be marketable within the hindu market ( hence such details will not be marketable and will be avoided at all costs) and not all publishers will have links on the web and ISBN numbers are not available for older publications.
But are you having a problem in getting a copy of Kurma Purana, Siva Purana, and Bhavisya Purana to verify them for yourself. These are sacred books and will be available to you in India very easily.
I can understand Bhavisya Purana ( since this is book of prophesies) might be difficult but I do believe libraries do carry them too.
Kumarakn: Hindu scriptures are an ocean. And there are many many who have given many many intrepretations....
Ibrahim says; yes scriptures can be interpreted according to the translator , But the main details will be hard to erase as the facts will be seen again and again in other verses.
That is why I have given you the same event appearing in different books and even a hindu Brahmin who tried to refute this recently, conveyed the finer details of how it all began.
Kumarakn: [li]Add to this, Islamic contribution introducing fictitious professors with names like upadhyays and sarkars?[/li]
Ibrahim says; this has always been the case everyone will point the finger at the other But I did give cleared details concerning this gentleman who published his findings ( BTW his name is spelt wrong) on my very post on this forum do you want them ? I will repost if you like.
Now you must understand it is easer to brush as side anything when that is the desire but when one is searching for the truth, one has to make an effort first not just try an make a common excuse that it is all false.
Kumarakn: Please give me a publisher name. Or a valid web link -to see what kinda website(or webpage?) it is from.
Ibrahim says; why not search on amazon for siva purana and kurma purana, you should get the info on who is publishing them. But just try and verify that you will be getting a word for word translation or at least with Sanskrit and English together before you buy them. After all I give you exact verse location, what else would a person who wants to find out would need??
What I have seen so far is that most Hindu scriptures are not inclusive of Sanskrit or they do not include the verse numbers or they are just a purport of the author/translator concerning that passage.
This I guess is the reason why the Brahmin who refuted that passage was unable to give the verse numbers for his claims.
Kumarakn: Or if you are telling me you translated this with your immense knowledge of Holy Sanskrit, then it is acceptable as your personal intrepretation.
Ibrahim says; No I do not venture into translating ANY scripture ( including the Qur’an) that I normally leave it with the experts in those fields but the information I gave you comes from hindu researchers who are researching their scriptures.
Basically this are researched info and are guaranteed to be accurate in the details.
So far I have not come across any who have discounted their translations as in error by presenting other authentic versions, I would be most pleased to study your presentations with this regards.
BTW I have held discussions on this and many other topics with well educated knowledgeable hindus ( I mean they know their stuff) for the past one and half years and have yet to meet one hindu that have shown evidence for its denial.
Second I don’t work on purports, commentaries or what anyone has believed it to be so. My point being all information MUST be authentic and must come from scriptures anything else is not acceptable to me. ( I believe you would have noted by now that all Muslims also follow this principal when it comes to Islam)
Maybe you would be the first, after all I should learn about Hinduism from the Hindus which is what I do.
Devoted to Truth
Ibrahim
If you don’t know where you are heading any road will take you there!
Nice! when you quote a post, it is your responsibility to build credibility. If you can't, then your quotes/comments don't have any credibility. You shouldn't expect the reader to find the sources on his/her own.
Have you ever published anything? Have you at least written a paper on anything? If you have, you will know what Ia m talking about.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
Nice! when you quote a post, it is your responsibility to build credibility. If you can't, then your quotes/comments don't have any credibility.
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
By the way I am not quoting a post! I have presented you evidence from your scared books as to the origin of the siva lingam. The moment I give you the reference numbers and the texts in English they become credible, If you chose to reject them, that is not my problem But do be sensible enough to reject them because you cannot accept it, not because they are not credible when you have yet to verify your books concerning them!
Are you claiming you have no idea what the Kurma Purana, Siva Purana, and Bhavisya Purana are or are you claiming that they are just novels, myths, literatures that are not scriptures?? Because this is what it sounds like.
I give you the origin for those texts as written in Hindu scared scriptures and you come back to ask me who published them?? I tell you were you can buy them and you come back and tell me I must give the details of all the publishers or else what I wrote has No credibility??
What am to say? Let me help you understand what are puranas
The puranas are considered smrti. There are 18 purana’s in all (the particular purana we are talking about in this thread are Siva Purana - 24,000 verses, Kurma Purana - 17,000 verses. Bhavisya Purana - 14,500 verses)
A Purana describes:
1) sarga (creation)
2) pratisarga (recreation)
3) vamsa (history of the sages)
4) manvantara (periods of Manu)
5) vamsanucarita (geneology of kings)
The Puranas are a valuable source from which to trace the development of Hinduism. They mark the next stage in beliefs after the Vedas Hinduism, as practiced today, is largely inspired by the Purana
They are all written largely in verse. These texts are said to have been composed much later than the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The oldest Purana is believed to date back to 300 AD, and the most recent ones to 1300 - 1400 AD.
Which any hindu should know, this is similar to telling a Muslim it is written in such and such verse in the Qur’an or hadith, If the Muslim comes back to know which particular translation, because my translation says such and such that is a different matter but the essence of the message will not vary much only the choice of words used might differ .
So is you current stand that it is not credible based on the facts that it does not exist because you have verified them or you cannot except it because you don’t like it or is not acceptable because I have not advised you all the publishers who might be publishing these puranas??
kumarakn You shouldn't expect the reader to find the sources on his/her own.
Ibrahim say: what is the matter with you?? The sources have been detailed out to you with exact verse numbers. Do you know what is a purana? Please read above again
If you presented a Muslim with some verses and its reference numbers from the Qur'an and the Muslim comes back to you and asked you who published the Qur’an what will you tell him?
Devoted to truth
Ibrahim
No matter how difficult the path, some forge ahead; no matter how easy the going, some lag behind!
u mean to say you learnt the puranas orally?
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Different authors give different intrepretations to the puranas. Particularly, Islamic intrepretations are very very funny.
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Which one did you follow? What is the credibility of your intrepretation?<-Is that too difficult to answer?
And why are ur posts alway too long, without directly answering my questions?
And Aishaa, if you are watching this conversation (that is going in cycles), will you please give your source?
Any present day book or web site please…I would like to know how credible is your intrepretation.
Or did you also learn it orally?
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The reason I am asking this because, a few days back, this guy Sholay talked exactly like this guy, but later I came to know all his intrepretations were from one single Islamic web page - that as expected, finished by explaining the supremacy of Islam.
I am getting suspicious if our Ibrahim’s is also one such site - particularly after his hesitancy in revealing it - (though it might not be).
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 26, 2001).]
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
u mean to say you learnt the puranas orally?
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Ibrahim says: hmm…..so you are unable to understand what I wrote earlier or is this the brilliant hindutva spin doctoring way of trying to brush aside what is written in your books??
Read what I wrote earlier
**Ibrahim says; No I do not venture into translating ANY scripture ( including the Qur’an) that I normally leave it with the experts in those fields but the information I gave you comes from hindu researchers who are researching their scriptures.
Basically this are researched info and are guaranteed to be accurate in the details. **
Do I have to repeat this? Researchers of sacred texts study scriptures and share information with each other on the basis of mutual trust. The info I am presenting you with are from hindu researchers . They do not go around authoring books and neither are they in the business to publicize what is common knowledge ( meaning the Lingam represents the phallus)
Now any rational person who has an ernest desire to learn would try and get hold of those texts to verify for themselves instead you are trying to deny them by just claiming it is doubtful because no one has published them! Or it MUST be from Islamic sources!
What sort of rational is this or what kind of an argument is this?
If you cannot accept the narrations, that is not a problem what makes you think it matters to me what you want to belief and what you want to reject?
Now either you dispute this by saying my translation says such and such hence we have to reject this or you produce your version of how the lingam came into worship!
Did I not tell you from the beginning we will have to learn Hinduism from hindus??
So what is your problem ??
kumarakn Different authors give different intrepretations to the puranas.
Ibrahim says; oh common on man! Translation will and must vary because it will be translated according to the translators knowledge BUT the essence will not run very far out……meaning the context will be similar but the choice of words will differ.
Did I not tell you to put forward your translation for those verses??
kumarakn Particularly, Islamic intrepretations are very very funny.
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Ibrahim says; man! you must be naïve…..Muslims do not translate hindu verses, in fact very few Muslims will even know what is a purana or have ventured into studying hindu texts.
My research is based on the fact that it has been currently identified that Brahma was actually Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) hence I have an urge to know more concerning the scrolls of prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) which will form part of the Vedas. ( the scrolls are mentioned in the Qur’an)
kumarakn Which one did you follow?
Ibrahim says: I follow what current hindu researchers who have been researching more on their scriptures have conveyed.
kumarakn : What is the credibility of your interpretation? Is that too difficult to answer?
Ibrahim says; I have personally verified those texts that are currently published and available in books and on web sites for many of the translations that have been given by the hindu researchers and found them accurate.
In addition I have had discussions with many hindus concerning this sort of texts ( they are numerous although we are only talking about the origin of siva lingam in this thread) on hindu public forums and knowledgeable hindus have NOT ONCE BEEN ABLE TO REFUTE THEM SO FAR .
This is like going to a Muslim forum and talking to them about the Qur’an, see what sort of response you will get.
So I am not some tom, dick and harry with evil intent to spread malicious fabricated teachings concerning other religions. Such things are forbidden in Islam…So please, you are entitled to your opinion and you can even laugh it off that is not my concern.
kumarakn And why are ur posts alway too long, without directly answering my questions?
Ibrahim says : what! I have NOT answered your question?? Which question was not answered? It is because I explain in detail my answers becomes long. I do not believe in serving a man with half a glass of water , IF he said he was thirsty.
Every thing is painstakingly explained so that one will comprehend the subject easily ……is that also a problem for you?
Devoted to truth
Ibrahim
Every day is election day! Allah votes for you, the devil votes against you and you will caste the deciding vote!
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited July 27, 2001).]
All right I give up.
This guy can't answer in short.
This guy can't give a present day source.
but will conveniently quote an unknon comment.
Sigh! ok you win!!
Aishaa..your source please?
KUMARAKN YOU HAVE BEEN BLASTED BY IBRAHIM
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After reading some of your previous replies i thought you are a sensible youth. But here the person(ibrahim) is giving you the exact verse numbers from your sacred scriptures, instead of verfiying it yourself, you need a third person to verify it for you???
pity on you.
Faiz_Wariz:
I beg you not to jump into conclusions.
Hindu scriptures are unfortunately not like Islamic ones. They are ancient, about 4000-6000 years old, sometimes in sanskrit, sometimes in brahm - an ancient language. Only a very few know how to translate them and it is interesting to see how different people translate different things in different ways.
In fact this adds beauty to my religion as all the intrepretations are NOT blasphemic and you can be as creative as possible.
Now, adding fuel to this confusion is mushrooming Islamic websites that cry about the supremacy of Islam and try and give newer meaning to Hindu scriptures.
So, all I am asking is, the source of intrepretation.
Ibrahim would not have been able read or understand that script. It is an intrepretation he is basing his comments. I am asking for the source of that intrepretation.
So, instead of the location of the script, more apt resource would the credibility of the intrepretation.
I request you to try and understand what I am asking for before jumping in air proclaiming victory for a person of your religion.
Anymore questions, doubts, feel free to shoot.
BTW, why is he hesitant to give the source anyway?