A question about Hz. Ali :razi:...

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

^ It is deemed to be authentic for you and you will not deny it when I bring as proof of what I am saying. - That simple.

[Code_Red]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

Dr. Sufi- Welcome to Gupshup nice analysis :k:

[Dr_Sufi]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

Respectable Code_Red

Thanks for the compliments.

Regards

[Das_Reich]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

@Ibn Sadique

^ It is deemed to be authentic for you and you will not deny it when I bring as proof of what I am saying. - That simple.

And i am not denying it…there is condemnation of those who refused to fight and praise for those who fought well…
but what u are saying is that those parts that are critical of syrians are not authentic but those that admonishes the kufans are…I dont see the logic

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

^ Sorry brother, I think that you got me wrong. I am not picking and choosing parts which are favourable to my stance.

Brother Lajawab had posed a question and I gave narrations of Hz. Ali (ra) condemning and rebuking his followers for his ‘apparent failures’.

And if you were to read the quotations of Hz. Ali (ra) with unbiased heart you will agree that Hz. Ali (ra) was let down by those who claimed to be his followers. Whether they were cowards or prone to corruption, it is initially their fault in the first place and it shows how fickle was their loyalty in the first place.

So my stance is that Hz. Ali (ra) was more damaged by his own camp than by his opponents. And the proof is in the narrations of Hz. Ali (ra) himself.

I am in now way absolving the Syrians of their misdeeds.

Since I was quoting everything from Nahjul Balagha [reason being that if the narrations and quotations were from Sunnis sources you would have jumped up and said that these hold no ‘Hujjah’ [proof] for you as the narrations are biased], I just wanted you to know stance of **eminent Sunni scholars **towards authenticity of Nahjul Balagha – And they have censured some of the narrations attributed to Hz. Ali (ra) and not the whole of the book. I have copy of Nahjul Balagha with me and there are really wonderful sayings [Pearls of Wisdom] of Hz. Ali (ra) in it.

I was not giving my personal opinion. I am not a scholar but just an ordinary bloke. Just see what I had said in my post.

…You can read the the link to the following post about stance of Sunni Scholars to the autheticity of Nahjul Balagha…

[Das_Reich]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

Brother Lajawab had posed a question and I gave narrations of Hz. Ali (ra) condemning and rebuking his followers for his ‘apparent failures’.

true that is why I merely said that the followers cannot be be held solely responsible i am not saying that they were not responsible at all

.

Whether they were cowards or prone to corruption, it is initially their fault in the first place and it shows how fickle was their loyalty in the first place.

I think many of them were both corrupt and cowards there is no denying that but the roots of the problem were deeper.than that …the source of all the conflict was the revolts that took place before …furthermore lets not forget those who served Ali loyally and the martyrs of these battles

So my stance is that Hz. Ali (ra) was more damaged by his own camp than by his opponents. And the proof is in the narrations of Hz. Ali (ra) himself.

My opinion is that the blame lies more on those who started the revolts in the first place…(also based on some of the letters/sermons addressed to the syrians

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

@Das Reich

…furthermore lets not forget those who served Ali loyally and the martyrs of these battles

thanks brother das reich..you have said this many times but some people like to ignore this I salute these warriors and companions of Maula Ali :as:

[little_human]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali :razi:…

@Dr Sufi

Respected Lajawab

Assalam-o-Alaikum

I sincerely hope and pray that you and your family are all fine by the grace of Allah Almighty.

Regarding your question, I can smell the sincere love for the Sahaba (RA) and a great respect for Ahl-e-Bait (RA). No doubt it is a very important question. Brother Anwar is also quit right. But let me share my humble views as well.

Before that, let me confess that I have a deep respect and love for Ahl-e-Bait (RA) and Sahaba (RA). Moreover, I respect the views of every sect and faction of our Religion. It is not my intention to start a controversy or to hurt anybody’s feelings. If God forbade, anything of this sort happens, I hereby offer my appologies in advance. Here are my humble deliberations.

First of all, worldly achievments and conquests are not absolute measures of one’s greatness. Had it been so, then Chengiz Khan, Hulago, Atilla the Hun etc would have been greater than so many. They could have been great for their own people, but infact, most of the historians have labelled them as destroyers and ruthless, reckelss and heedless wariors.

Secondly, there is no guarantee that a good reformer can be successful. Had it been so, then Muhammad Tughlaq would have been probably the most successful ruler of India. He introduced reforms, which were way ahead of his time, but none worked for him and eventually he was labelled as an unfortunate failed ruler. Most of his reforms were adopted by later rulers and even British, but they were lucky to get away with the label of being unfortunate.

Thirdly, if the appearance of civil wars in a regime is considered to be a sign of one’s wekness, then proabably Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb was the weakest, who spent all his life as a ruler, fighting these civil wars and mutinies throughout India. On the contrary he is considered as role model among Indian rulers.

Fourthly, if number of dead is directly proportional to ones in-effectiveness, then probably, Sir Lord Winston Spencer Churchill was the most ineffective leader in the history of Britain who made millions of Bitish soldiers die for the Crown.

Fifthly, if the appearance of a famine is considered to be a sign of a soft leader without any grasp on state affairs, then probably Hazrat Umar (RA) was also a soft leader without any grasp on the Khilafat (Maáz Allah).

And Sixthly, if the absence of any conquest is betoken as a sign of ineptness on part of a ruler, then my brother, what would we consider of the life of our Holiest of all the Prophets, Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh), before the conquest of Makkah? (Maáz Allah).

Sir, let me share another thing with you. Similar questions were also put to Hazrat Ali (RA). He was asked to respond on these differences and difficulties which were not faced by his equally great predecessors. He was asked to come up with any plausible explanation for this. His reply is one of the most important in order to understand the appearance of these difficulties. His reply to the question askers was, “My predecessors were lucky and successful, becuase they had advisers like me, I am unlucky to have advisors like you”.

My brother, at many times, Hazrat Umar (RA) one of the most successful Khalifa-e-Rashid, asked for the advice of Hazrat Ali (RA) and each time confessed, “Had Ali (RA) not been there, behold, Umar (RA) would have perished”. One of the occasion was at the time of war with the Romans, when Hazrat Umar (RA) wanted to go along with the army but was advised to stay back in Madina-e-Munawara by Hazrat Ali (RA). Another was at the time of famine in Madina-e-Munawara, when a person hungary for several days, accused of stealing wheat was sentenced for the amputation of his hand. When being asked from Hazrat Ali (RA) about the legitimacy of the verdict, he annulled it saying thereby that there is no Hadd on a hungary person during a famine on stealing wheat. Subhan Allah. So my friend, how come a man, who helped a great Sahabi like Hazrat Umar (RA) not to perish, and led to the strengthening of the Muslim Khilafat, be labelled as an in-effective ruler.

Sir, let me be very frank and open. If you study Islamic History, the conclusions reacehed in a book will depend upon the author and the school of thought behind the book, which ofcourse is quite natural. This includes all the historians, whether Muslim or not. There are books by non Shias labelling Hazrat Ali (RA) as a great leader and there are books by non Shias labelling Hazrat Usman (RA) as an ineffective ruler. In my opinion, none was in-effective. By the way Sir, I am not a Shia. I am just a plain, humble servant of the Holiest of all the Prophets Hazrat Muhammad, (pbuh), who respects both his Ahl-e-Bait (RA) and his companions (RA).

Now Sir, lets consider everything from an altogether different angle.

Lets assume, that the division in Islamic Khilafat, created by Hazrat Muawiah (RA), happened in the time of Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA).

Lets assume that the vice of Kharijites, who claimed to be Muslims appeared and made an army in the time of Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA).

What could have been his response? He waged a war on the infidels siding along the imposter prophet Musailama Kazab. Similarly he waged a war on those muslims who refused to pay Zakat. At the first instance, he was forbade by the Sahaba, not to send troops against Musailama Kazab. But he did, saying it to be manace for the Khilafat and a dis-respect for the Prophethood of Hazart Muhammad (pbuh). Second time again, he was advised not to send an army, still he sent it against the wrong interpretters of Shariah in the case of Zakat, saying that he would make sure that if anybody used to give even a tiny rope as Zakat, he would do the same again. Now please for one moment, juxtapose the great personality of Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) in the proposed assumptions. My friend, I am sure that Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) would have also done the same. Consider the time of choosing a Khalifa at Saqifa-e-Banu Saéda, when Ansars proposed to have two Khulafa, one from Muhajareen and one from Ansar. This proposal was strongly rejected by Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA), Hazrat Umar (RA) and Hazrat Abdul Rehman bin Auf (RA), the three representatives of Muhajareen. Similarly, anybody, trying to form an Emirate of his own in the Khiafat of Muslims, would have been fought with, by Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) in the same way like, to avoid division in the Khilafat, whether it was Hazrat Muawiah (RA) or any body else. Similarly he would have fought against the Kharijite in the same way he did against the refusers of Zakat. Since such incidents, did not happen in the Khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA), Hazrat Umar (RA) or Hazrat Usman (RA), so naturally, anything good or bad, related with these incidents were labelled with the personality of Hazrat Ali (RA).

Please consider one more option. No Khalifa, faced as many difficulties as Hazrat Ali (RA). No Khalifa, faced as many problems as Hazrat Ali (RA). No Khalifa made as many difficult decisions as Hazrat Ali made. No Khalifa was faced with as much enemies as Hazrat Ali (RA). No Khalifa, was betrayed by his own men like Hazrat Ali (RA). Considering all this and the reponse of the Brother of the Prophet, the Son in Law of the Prophet, this fourth Khalifa of the Prophet stands miles above ordinary rulers of the world. All this infact proves that he was probably the most capable of all the Khulafa, because the true test of ones strength of character and ability is in difficult times, not the happy go lucky eras.

One thing more Sir, of all the four Khulafa, Hazrat Ali (RA) was the only one who was four in one i.e., A Ruler, A Faqih, An Alim and A General.

Sir I am not finished as yet. Let me relate something else as well. Out of all the four Khulafa-e-Rashideen (RA), only Hazrat Ali (RA) had the honour of leading a community as the Deputy of Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) on two different occasions. First was at the time of Ghazwah-i-Tabook when, Holy Prophet (mpuh), left Hazrat Ali (RA) behind in Madina saying “O ye Ali (RA), you are unto me, as Haroon (AS) was unto Musa (AS)”. Had he been in-capable, Holy Prophet (pbuh) would have never left a Lion of Allah (Assad Ullah), behind and would have taken him along in the battle field as before. Second was the time when Holy Prophet (pbuh), made Hazart Ali (RA) Governer of Yemen in his life. It was in Yemen, where Holy Prophet (pbuh), sent a message to Hazrat Ali (RA) about his last pilgrimage and told him to reach Makkah. And most of the Muslims even do not know that Hazrat Ali (RA), came all the way from Yemen to Makkah and not from Madina, to perform hajj and participate in Hajja-tul-Widda. My brothers in Islam, please do not consider that I am in anyway trying to bellitle the great companions of Holy Prophet (pbuh) like the first three Khulafa (RA). But what I am trying to do is to disprove the myth that (Maáz Allah) Hazrat Ali ul Murtaza, Asad Ullah, Yadd Ullah, Haider-e-Karar, Sahib-e-Zulfiqar was an in-effective ruler.

And lastly dear Sir, the following dictum was not coined by any Shia or any Persian. Infact this was a common Arabic Proverb in the days of Holy Prophet (mpuh) that

La fattah ila ALI (RA), la saif ila ZULFIQAR
There is no youth like ALI (RA) and no sword like ZULFIQAR.

May Allah Almighty give all the Muslims, the true respect and love of both the Ahl-e-Bait and Companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). May Allah Almighty unite all the Muslim brethern as one Ummah as envisaged by our Holy Prophet (mpbh). May Allah Almighty make all of us ONE, without the discrimination of SUNNI, SHIA, WAHABI, DEOBANDI etc. Ameen.

If at all, my Muslim brothers, I have inadvertantly hurt anybody’s feelings, please forgive me.

Regards for all of you especially worthy Lajawab.

Khuda Hafiz.

Mashallah! What a nice reply!

Welcome on board.

Hazrat Ali a.s. was such a great stateman that even the UN quotes him.

In a statement delivered on the fiftieth anniversary year of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

From – http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/1997/19971209.SGSM6419.html

The principles enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are deeply rooted in the history of humankind. They can be found in the teachings of all the world’s great cultural and religious traditions.

** Imam Ali, the fourth Khalifa after Prophet Muhammed, instructed the governor of Egypt to rule with mercy and tolerance towards all his subjects: **
** “… Let the dearest of your treasuries be the treasury of righteous action… Infuse your heart with mercy, love and kindness for your subjects. Be not in the face of them a voracious animal, counting them as easy prey, for they are of two kinds: either they are your brothers in religion or your equals in creation.”**

Indeed there’s no youth like Ali (a.s), no sword like Zulfiqar.

[Lajawab]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

Br. Ibn Sadique:

for your great input as always…

But we do come to the same circle…How come Hz. Ali Ibn Abu Talib was not able to inspire in his followers the same verve and dedication that other Khulafa could? What was the fault in his followers that he asks for 1 of Ameer Muawiya 's men against ten of his?

Why in so many sermons does Hz. Ali bemoan the shortcomings of his own followers or Shian-e-Ali? Did he not inspire enough loyalty in them? Or was it the shortcomings of his followers?

Why was it that the Kuffans who on two occasions, even after pledging fealty and loyalty to the death, abandon him and his son in their hour of need? Whose fault was it?

Although I understand the sentiments behind many replies here, they come out of genuine love for the last of the Khulafa-e-Rashideen, however, these are questions which for me hold curiosity…
**
Maddie:** I don’t agree with you…

No one faced more challenges than Hz. ABu Bakr , because right after the demise of the Holy Prophet :saw:, the leaderless Muslim nation was on the brink of collapse from breakaway factions…From those who opposed the Zakat to false prophets and attacks from enemy nations…

In those times, Hz. Abu Bakr (razi) pulled together the fledgling Ummah and rallied forth against many foes both from within and without and persevered splendidly…The expansion of Islam under him was no small feat considering that he was thrust with a daunting responsibility with only the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) to guide him…

History is witness to the greatness of nations whose leaders inspired thier followers to do the unthinkable…Not the other way round…
**
Dr. Sufi:**

MashAllah Br. Sufi…What a splendid response from you…JazakAllah…Your response denotes that you possess knowledge along with good graces which speaks of a sublime intellect…I appreciate your wonderful response brother and I have gained much wisdom from your response…

In time I would address your post separately, and it is true, I hold great love for the Sahaba RadhiaAllahtaalaAnhum, for they were the best of the best of nations…

[BOY-NICE]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali :razi:…

@Lajawab

…

But we do come to the same circle…How come Hz. Ali Ibn Abu Talib :razi: was not able to inspire in his followers the same verve and dedication that other Khulafa could? What was the fault in his followers that he asks for 1 of Ameer Muawiya :razi:'s men against ten of his?

..

Because all of them or may i say majority of them were not loyal or dedicated towards their ‘4th caliph’ like the people (though being on wrong side) were loyal to their leaders muawiyah.

And that is something not strange, there have been people of such kind in every era including the time of Holy Prophet [s] where some of his known companions had abandoned Him[s] during war to run for their lives. So, shortcomings can bethere in some of people of a selected group.

Why in so many sermons does Hz. Ali :razi: bemoan the shortcomings of his own followers or Shian-e-Ali? Did he not inspire enough loyalty in them? Or was it the shortcomings of his followers?

Shortcomings of “Followers” not of “Shian-e-Ali” as there is slight yet very grave difference between the two. Those who sided with Ali were of 3 types of people, who were:

1. Loyal to Ali (as) because they deemed him to be the khalifa/Imam after Rasulullah (s); They were the “Shian-e-Ali” in true (religious) sense, who were not so many in numbers.
2. Loyal to Ali (as) because his khailafath was legitimate in accordance to the principles of ijma, bayya had been given hence it was compulsory to obey him e.g. Ubayy bin Kab . (means those who deemed him 4th caliph, were many in numbers)
   *]Loyal to Ali (as) as long as he fought Mu’awiya once arbitration was accepted these same people turned their backs on the Imam and became Khwaarijee.
   It should also be noted that all of these 3 categories of people were known as Shian-e-Ali at that time.

[Das_Reich]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

…

[Das_Reich]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

[quote=Das Reich]

[quote=Lajawab]

But we do come to the same circle…How come Hz. Ali Ibn Abu Talib was not able to inspire in his followers the same verve and dedication that other Khulafa could? What was the fault in his followers that he asks for 1 of Ameer Muawiya 's men against ten of his?

He inspired loyalty in many of his followers and many of them were already dead in the battlefields of Jamal and siffin by the time these sermons were given…killed at the hands of those rebels to the rightful Imam.
those who were not in the vanguard of fighting were obviously now in majority
It is interesting that these rebels which you hold in such high regard were responsible for shedding the blood of thousands of muslims of the best generations(sahaba and tabaeen) you totally ignore their contribution towards making the caliphate of Ali a ‘failure’

[Das_Reich]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

[quote=Lajawab]

No one faced more challenges than Hz. ABu Bakr , because right after the demise of the Holy Prophet :saw:, the leaderless Muslim nation was on the brink of collapse from breakaway factions…From those who opposed the Zakat to false prophets and attacks from enemy nations…

In those times, Hz. Abu Bakr (razi) pulled together the fledgling Ummah and rallied forth against many foes both from within and without and persevered splendidly…The expansion of Islam under him was no small feat considering that he was thrust with a daunting responsibility with only the example of the Holy Prophet (saw) to guide him…

History is witness to the greatness of nations whose leaders inspired thier followers to do the unthinkable…Not the other way round…

AbuBakr(ra) was successful because those who intially oppossed him gave him their wholehearted support to him as soon as the false prophets appeared because the interests of Islam was dearer to them than their own self.
At the time of Ali(as) some ( who had a high standing in the ummah) and some others who accepted Islam grudgingly placed their own personal interests first …and caused a lasting rift amongst the muslims.

[Dr_Sufi]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

[quote=little human]
Mashallah! What a nice reply!

Dear Br

Thanx for the compliments

Regards

[Dr_Sufi]

Re: A question about Hz. Ali …

Respected Lajawab

Assalam-o-Alaikum

Thanks for the compliments.

Regards.