A Proposal for the Qadianis

Dear People,

When i first came onto this Forum i did not come with the intention of berating Qadianis, whom undoubtedly i consider Kafirs for their corrupting of the Deen and creating a schism amongst muslims. However there was already a vigorous debate underway here, so i put my point of view. Let me tell you now, i won’t play this game by your rules, getting stuck splitting hairs over interpretations of Qur’an and Hadith. No, that is the mistake made by the Ulema when they tried to debate with you on theological grounds, not realising that Qadianism is a POLITICAL movement with it’s roots in Colonial Britain.

Anyhow, the point i am trying to make is that i am not sure that this debate is serving much purpose anymore, because we are arguing over deep fiqh issues when an outsider looking in must wonder what is going on. Really we have got bigger problems than this in our country, so i think it might be better to give it a rest. Enough has been said, but i am quite happy to carry on if that is what you wish. Believe me there is plenty more.

Really i just wish Qadianis would declare themselves a separate religion. The followers of Ghulam Mirza are going to suffer persecution and i honestly don’t want to see that, but that is undoubtedly what will happen unless they take that step. There is no way Islam will allow itself to be undermined and abrogated so what is the alternative?

Dear Mr. Xtreme,

You say: “ When i first came onto this Forum i did not come with the intention of berating Qadianis,”

Well, you could have fooled a lot of people.

Then you say: “The followers of Ghulam Mirza are going to suffer persecution ….”.

What do you mean “going” to suffer. Are you aware of what is going on in Pakistan with Ahmadies (and other minorities) today? Let me give you a few #s. There are over 800 criminal cases registered against Ahmadies in Punjab. Their crime: they (tried) to convert Muslims into Ahmadis. Wao. How terrible a crime? I am sure you don’t want that to happen to Sunnis who try to convert Africans in Senegal, for example. There is a case of “complacency in murder’ against the current Khalifa (Sayedna Mirza Tahir Ahmad, Rahmatulla Allaih, Khalifa IV). That’s the reason he asked for asylum in England. How would a Mullah like to be kicked out of his homeland? I don’t even want to mention about almost daily murders of religious minorities (Ahmadis included) in Pakistan. You are probably well aware of that.

Finally, you say that Ahmadiya movement has its roots in colonial Britain. Well, Mr. Xtreme, how come whenever there are religious or political persecutions against Muslims in their own countries, they run to Britain, France, USA or other Western Nations. West has a lot better record on human rights than, say, Pakistan.

I am not a practicing Ahmadi. I would voice my anger even if this kind of persecution is being done to anyone regardless of what they believe. Most Pakistanis are tolerant and think that this kind of treatment of minorities is wrong. A few idiot elements (yourself included) believe in killing and murders. After people like you achieve your goal of eliminating your perceived enemies, you look for other causes to kill people. Look what is going on in Afghanistan. After getting rid of communists, they are now killing their own people. People who believe in killing always find a cause to kill someone.

Stay happy.

Why the hell should someone else's faith be a matter of concern to U??? Live and let live!
If u like Islam follow it....someone else finds Ghulam Mirza's way more appealing to his spirituality, he follows it!
And no one who was born into a religion has a right to claim other religions r inferior to his, simply becoz ,he's never tried out the other religion!

Mr. Xtreme wrote: "Really I just wish Qadianis would declare themselves a separate religion...There is no way Islam will allow itself to be undermined and abrogated so what is the alternative?"

Why can't Qadianis exist along side other Islam(s)? Why does this version of Islam threaten certain Muslims? Or perhaps it isn't a threat at all, perhaps its just a feeling of offence. "How dare 'they' claim to be 'Muslim' when they follow 'him' - Mirza." Muslims shouldn't be threatened, Allah will protect the true version of Islam, whatever it maybe, He will protect the Qur'an from corruption.

Perhaps its time people just learn to accept the fact that other versions of Islam are here to stay and will continue to crop up. We cannot stop them, we cannot kill them, or deny them the right to speak. They should be permitted to preach their scripture, to preach their version of Islam, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. To debate with others on matters concerning Islam is one thing, to do so to learn is worthwhile, but to do so to insult others is unfair. Be an example for others to follow. An example which others will admire. Muslims (of whatever sect) should be fearful of falling further in despair and losing touch with the example of greatness provided to us through the teachings of the Quran and the Prophets of Islam. We should follow these examples, regardless of sect, and leave the judgment of whose right and who is wrong to Allah.

"Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." (109:6)

"Unto this, then, summon (O Muhammad). And be thou upright as thou art commanded, and follow not their lusts, but say: I believe in whatever scripture Allah hath sent down, and I am commanded to be just among you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. Unto us our works and unto you your works; no argument between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and unto Him is the journeying." (42:15)

"And when they hear vanity they withdraw from it and say: Unto us our works and unto you your works. Peace be unto you! We desire not the ignorant. It is true thou wilt not be able to guide everyone whom thou lovest, but Allah guideth whom He will. And He is Best Aware of those who walk aright." (QS. 28:55-56)

"And if they deny thee, say: Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do." (10:41)

Achtung ;)

Deepblue, forgive me for getting political here.

NY Ahmadi wrote: "West has a lot better record on human rights than, say, Pakistan."

Yes Pakistan is evil. The West on the other hand has given humanity a commendable record of exemplary human rights to follow. The following are some of the human rights upheld by the West in recent years, they should be applauded and rewarded for their efforts:

1) The first use of a nuclear device killing millions of innocent civilians
2) The genocide of millions based on their religious beliefs in Germany
3) The enslavement of millions based on the color of their skin
4) The colonization of the 'Orient' and the 'Americas' and the subsequent murder of millions
5) The legacy of the 'cold war' - a legacy of murder and war fought over opposing ideology - fought all over the globe
6) The continued subjugation and colonization of land belonging to native Americans

These events are limited to the last century and a half and the list is incomplete. Some people seem to suffer from selective amnesia and tend to forget these events. The West is as guilty as Pakistan of human rights abuses (if not more so). The West is in fact fully implicated in the abuses of minorities in Pakistan as well. The West has wholeheartedly supported various leadership regimes in Pakistan, those regimes in turn have raped and pillaged the countries resources and undermined the rights of Pakistanis'. Neither is free from blame.

NY Ahmadi wrote: "Look what is going on in Afghanistan. After getting rid of communists, they are now killing their own people. People who believe in killing always find a cause to kill someone."

NY Ahmadi if I come to your house tomorrow and bring a few of my enemies, would you mind if we played war games? We may rape some of your loved ones in the process, hopefully you won't mind. You see, I have this game I'd like to play, its called - "Cold War". I may even let you play. I'll give you some guns, maybe a few Klashnikov's and rocket launchers. The game lasts about 20 years. It involves death and blood. It involves losing limbs and body parts. It involves the forced removal of some of your family to your neighbors home. They can live there until the game is over, hopefully your neighbor won't mind. After me and my opponents have torn up your house, your family can move back (20 years later). But we'll leave the guns in your house and you can sort out the mess. That's Afghanistan.

There is an African proverb - "when two elephants fight, its the grass that gets hurt." In Afghanistan two elephants fought - the US and the USSR. They hurt the grass (Afghanistan). They left it damaged. They left a militarized country full of weaponry and tribal/ethnic factions, to forge their own destiny - a destiny built on the blood of their family members who were killed, crippled, widowed and raped in a war which they didn't understand, in a war which was fought over ideologies foreign to their homeland. Its not that "people who believe in killing always find a cause to kill someone" - that would be too simple, too black and white. The problem is a lot more complex than that. You have to look a bit deeper to understand what is happening in Afghanistan.

Achtung ;)

Dear Achtung,

I appreciate your response to Mr. Xtreme.

Responding to me, you are again bringing your extremely biased outlook at world. No one here is arguing about West's record on human rights in historical perspective. All examples you mentioned are history's unfortunate occurrences. At least "advanced" (I don't want to say 'civil' to avoid an unnecessary lengthy reply from you!!!) countries are making an effort to learn from the past, while Pakistan and other rouge nations are not doing that. Islamic countries are going "backward".

You are quick to give an explanation into Afghan problem. Please explain that to young girls who cannot go to schools to learn. Explain that to women that they are not as good as men. That inequality has nothing to do with your "Elephants" it is a sickness that cannot be explained by looking through a geopolitical telescope.

I don't know the true wordings of this Hadith Mubarka but I would try to interpret the message in this Hadith Mubaraka.
Once Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was sitting and thinking that why don't these people accept the Truth, Allah (SWT) sent the Gabriel (AS) with a message that "to bring some one on the right path is Allah's Will"

My point to write this message in this Hadith is that "This is our duty to convey our true message to those who we think are on the wrong path. It is up to them to accept it or not, and It is Allah's Will to bring them on the right path. By conveying our message, we are done our part of job.

Your the one with an "extremely biased outlook at world", I'm not the one making broad generalizations --> "West has a lot better record on human rights than, say, Pakistan." I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies in your narrow world view.

NY Ahmadi wrote: "All examples you mentioned are history's unfortunate occurrences. At least "advanced" (I don't want to say 'civil'...) countries are making an effort to learn from the past, while Pakistan and other rouge nations are not doing that. Islamic countries are going "backward"."

"History's unfortunate occurrences", yes they are. But they are also acts of human rights abuses conducted by western governments, or should I say "advanced" or "civil" nations. These events are recent. They are as recent as the creation of Pakistan. The west has not learned from them, they are continuing to violate the rights of others. In Iraq abuses have led to the deaths of half a million children. Madeline Albright, in an interview stated, "we think its worth it." Violating human rights to meet western altruistic goals is permissible. The abuses of human rights conducted by Western nations is well documented, I don't need to list anymore here. My point was not to exonerate Pakistan, it was simply to state the fact that western governments are not exempt from human rights abuses either. You exempted them in your post.

There is no such thing as an ** Islamic country ** today. As there is no Christian or Jewish or Hindu country. Islam is not a monolithic religion, its diverse. No government in the world today is Islamic or can encompass the diversity of Islamic opinion. Muslims do not support their leaders, their leaders don't speak for them. Many leading Muslim societies today are corrupt tyrants, military dictators, Kings and despots. The abuses conducted by these regimes are not in accordance with the religion of Islam and the religion practiced by the inhabitants of these countries. The abuses are a response to the leaderships incessant desire for power. Most of the regimes are supported by Western governments. I detest their abuses of power and the treatment that they subject their citizens too, as do the inhabitants of these countries. They are frustrated and pessimistic. Fundamental Islam becomes an option, when all others have failed - that is what we are seeing today - Islamic revival in light of the failures of de-colonization, capitalism and socialism.

Read my response to AbdulMalick's post against the Taleban, it will give you another perspective. Here is a quote from someone closer to the battlefront, someone who knows more about the Taliban than me or you:

"People in the West blame the Afghanis, the mujahadeen, the Taliban for what is happening in Afghanistan, they do not see how they are implicated, they do not see that their political and economic interests and their politicians, as well as the interests of Afghanistan's neighbors have created the Afghanistan today. They [non-Afghanis] will not accept responsibility for how they are implicated in the plight of Afghanistan and the conditions of Afghan women." (Adeena Niazi, President of Afghan Women's Association, Toronto, 1997)

The problems plaguing Afghan women are more complex than the simple black or white answer you gave. Militarizing a region and expecting them to become civil after their country is torn into shreds is unrealistic and in many respects inhuman. Vietnam is still getting over the aftermath of the legacy of the Cold War, as is Afghanistan. We can't look at these situations solely with a 'geo-political' stance, but we can't ignore the historical, political, economic and social implications of the wars, which have forged their development either.

Achtung ;)

NYAhmadi,

I thought i told you that you didn't need to reply to my posts? I tried to bring this matter to an end, and you pop your head up to have your two cents worth. Really i don't want to have to deal with you, because i hold you in utter contempt. May i suggest in future you only open your mouth when you are going to take a bite out of your HOG sandwich.

Queer,

Are you following me around or something? What is your problem? Please don't tell me how to follow my religion, especially in light of the fact that you don't have one of your own (lapsed Hindu). As an admitted atheist i suggest you go out and enjoy life while you are still young and ungrateful. Should you come shoving your half-baked theories of fairness and equality under my nose again you can expect a sharper reply.

Achtung,

You really took the wind out of my sails, because i was ready to let rip. Some very thought provoking and intelligent views. I do not agree with you however, that Qadianism can exist under the pretence of calling itself Islam. By it's very nature, denial of the Finality of the Prophethood of Muhammed (SAW) it cannot be called Islam, as this is one of the foundation structures on which this Deen was built. By all means, call Ghulam Mirza a prophet and worship freely, but do not call it Islam. Believe me this can only lead to trouble and neither you nor i will be able to prevent it. That is just a plain fact and it needs to be addressed. There are many reasons why the scholars have rejected Qadianism, and i'm sure if you take the trouble to have a look at some of the articles that have been posted recently it will give you a clearer view. Bear in mind that there have been some pretty weird and diverse strands of Islam in it's history, from Sufism to Wahabbism and yet they have been able to flourish, because they did not undermine the structure of the religion itself. Remember, as Mirza Ghulam claims to be the successor to Mohammed(SAW) this give him the right to abrogate the Qur'an where he feels necessary, and this he has in fact done. Now Islam has it's own laws for dealing with what is perceived to be tampering with the tenants of Islam, and whether you think it is right, or i think it is wrong is beside the point. Someone somewhere will want to implement the hudood so where is that going to lead?

Thanks for your input.

Mr. Extreme said,

but i am quite happy to carry on if that is what you wish.Believe me there is plenty more.

Yes, I know extreme that there is a lot more to copy and paste from Irshad’s site.


MIRZA YASIR

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I don't want to post too much on these Qadiani debates, here is how I feel (although my feelings change readily):

I have to confess that I've had little interaction with Qadiani's. I know very little about their religion. Islam is something, which I believe, most believers are drawn to on their own (with the help of Allah). Islam provides believers with spiritual relief, a sense of community, a set of morals and cultural rootedness. I am comfortable with my understanding of Islam, although I struggle on a daily basis, and feel no threat from other brands or versions of Islam - I only fear Allah.

It seems to me that the question, which needs to be answered, is one of semantics. It's a question of labels and who wears them and who is permitted to label themselves with the label of Islam. These questions are going to plague Muslims for some time. The answers to these questions and the debate occurring here in this forum, on a smaller scale is one of the ** biggest ** challenges Muslims have ever had to face.

1) How can we define Islam in this age of post-modernity?
2) Who can define Islam today - who has the authority?
3) How do we enforce the definitions? Or should they be enforced, is there an ordinance in the Qur'an or Sunnah requiring Muslims to enforce proper labeling?
4) Is there a punishment for those who have corrupted the message?

I think the answers to the first two questions are difficult to ascertain. I don't see any use in ripping away the label of 'Islam' from Qadianis'. I don't fear that any person will lead others astray from the path of Allah (unless they wish to be led astray out of their own weakness). For it is Allah who leads whom He pleases:

"This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; ** so fear them not, fear Me! ** This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam." (5:3)

"And who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah when he is summoned unto Al-Islam ? ** And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk ** ." (61:7)

To the best of my knowledge there are no ordinances in the Qur'an calling for the punishment of those who corrupt the message. If there were Jews and Christians would be punished. They too have corrupted the message. They too were at one point Muslims. They both deny the finality of Muhammad's prophethood (as do Qadiani's, according to some). The difference between them and Qadiani's is that they do not claim to be Muslims, hence they avoid the scrutiny of Muslims who feel that Qadiani's are leading others astray and confusing non-believers with their message by claiming it is the true 'Islam'. But Allah has discussed those who are led astray in the Qur'an on countless occasions (this list is a long one):

*

1) "What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned ? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray ? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road." (4:88)

2) "He whom Allah causeth to go astray, thou (O Muhammad) wilt not find a way for him" (4:143)

3) "Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom Allah will sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path." (6:39)

4) "And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His Will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not." (6:125)

5) "Thou sendest whom Thou wilt astray and guidest whom Thou wilt: Thou art our Protecting Friend, therefore forgive us and have mercy on us, Thou, the Best of all who show forgiveness." (7:155)

6) "He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers." (7:178)

7) "Those whom Allah sendeth astray, there is no guide for them. He leaveth them to wander blindly on in their contumacy." (7:186)

8) "It was never Allah's (part) that He should send a folk astray after He had guided them until He had made clear unto them what they should avoid. Lo! Allah is Aware of all things." (9:115)

9) "Say: Lo! Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth unto Himself all who turn (unto Him)" (13:27)

10) "He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide." (13:33)

11) "And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise." (14:4)

12) "Allah confirmeth those who believe by a firm saying in the life of the world and in the Hereafter, and Allah sendeth wrong-doers astray. And Allah doeth what He will." (14:27)

13) "Had Allah willed He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sendeth whom He will astray and guideth whom He will, and ye will indeed be asked of what ye used to do. " (16:93)

14) "And he whom Allah guideth, he is led aright; while, as for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them." (17:97)

15) "He whom Allah guideth, he indeed is led aright, and he whom He sendeth astray, for him thou wilt not find a guiding friend." (18:17)

16) "Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray ? For such there are no helpers." (30:29)

17) "Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!" (35:8)

18) "Such is Allah's guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide." (39:23)

19) "He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide." (39:36)

20) "A day when ye will turn to flee, having no preserver from Allah: and he whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide." (40:33)

21) "Thus doth Allah send astray the disbelievers (in His guidance)." (40:74)

22) "He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no protecting friend after Him. And thou (Muhammad) wilt see the evil-doers when they see the doom, (how) they say: Is there any way of return ?" (42:44)

23) "And they will have no protecting friends to help them instead of Allah. He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no road." (42:46)

24) "Hast thou seen him who maketh his desire his god, and Allah sendeth him astray purposely, and sealeth up his hearing and his heart, and setteth on his sight a covering ? Then who will lead him after Allah (hath condemned him) ? Will ye not then heed ?" (45:23)

25) "Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals." (74:31)

*

These verses don't negate a Muslims responsibility to warn non-believers. So if Qadianis are astray they should be warned - not by violence, but by word of mouth, not insulting words, but words which are in compliance with the method of preaching followed by our Prophets who were patient, loving and invited others to their Islam through their worthy example (Recall: 'There is no compulsion in religion' 2:256). There is no command in the Qur'an to punish those who have corrupted Allah's scripture, just to warn them. The following verse is good advice for Muslims:

** ...whoso goeth right, goeth right only for (the good of) his own soul; and as for him who goeth astray - (Unto him) say: Lo! I am only a warner. (27:92) **

Muslims should warn others. The best warner is the one who sets an example of greatness for others to follow and dispels myths regarding Islam and is able to converse with others regarding the message of Islam in a congenial amicable manner. This is the best way to invite others to Islam. We can continue debating the authenticity of our 'Islam(s)' here, weather anyone will alter their beliefs is doubtful. That being said, I think its still worthwhile, I'm learning and I'm sure others are as well (as long as we steer clear of personal attacks or offensive remarks).

Achtung ;)

** "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." (109:6) **

Well Qadianis,

Nothing to say about your supporters NYAhmadi and Queer who are after all, championing your cause? Ham sandwiches and legalised prostitution all round anyone? Atheism to be taught as the school curriculum via Darwin's theory, survival of the fittest (the one with the most A-bombs)?

Let's hear your views Qadianis, you aren't shy to nitpick over interpretations of Hadith and Ayat. Let's deal with real life, why not?

Mr Xtreme,
U r an xtremely slippery character! When did i say i support Quaidianis?
All i said was the religious faith of others shouldn't be Ur concern...
U accused me of "teaching u how to follow Ur faith"
Now, where did i do that? Dont roll around once u have fallen down!
And about "survival of the fittest" and nukes....if it weren't the truth, why would pakistan want the bomb? wouldn't allah take care of his people?
U make fun of darwin's theory and all scientific stuff...and glorify religion as the ultimate thing...but when u fall ill, obviously, u dont start praying...u go to the doc and make use of the medical facilities produced by the brilliant atheists (scientists to sensible people)...no religion when it comes to the question of death.
I know people who dont eat food from non-muslim's houses...perfectly alright...but then, they gobble up tablets made by "kufr mushriks" before sleeping....speaking of hypocrasy! "Religious" people like these r the biggest hippocrates.

My Queer Friend,

Pakistan has the A-bomb because in our truthful religion, Allah (swt) has permitted us to defend ourselves against those who oppose his message. Contrast this with the Christian and Hindu religions which promote non-violence, yet it is always their nations who rush to make the biggest bombs and weapons of mass destruction.

We are not allowed to eat pig meat, but luckily for us most medicines do not contain this, so there is no problem. I don't know if it makes any difference if they are made by mushriks but i don't think so. See how reasonable we are? For us there is no conflict with science and religion.

As for the Qadianis, I don't need to say anything. People like you say it all for me. They don't seem to want your support much though do they? Damned ungrateful I'd say.

Mr. Queer:
Do you actually know the difference between the medicine and food?
Can some one tell this Mushrik Queer the difference between the medicine and food?
This person seems to follow the Muslims all over the Gupshup with his lame ideas and with his lack of intelligence theories. Talking about the hypocrisy, then tell me what is the difference between the cow meet and a big Mac from the McDonalds and a whopper from Burger King? Tell me how many Hindus like you eat the big Macs and Whoppers and fight with the Muslim in India to save the Cows. If you talk about the Hypocrisy then start looking under your own bed first.

Dear Mr Xtreme,
after reading msaqibj's mesg i feel u rn't all that xtremist. ;)
Nice argument u've got their about medicines not containing pig meat...and good if u feel medicines from kafirs r not disagreeable under Islam.
But isn't it disgraceful to call someone a mushrik who helps save lifes of muslims? (i assume "kufr mushrik" is quite a derogatory term since msaqibj seems pretty intend on using it often).
And wasn't it an Ahmedi pakistani who had got the Nobel prize? U rn't proud of that?
If the Qaidianis accept that they dont mean any insult to Muhammad (pbuh) , do u have problems tolerating them? U dont think muslims should allow any other religions to exist?

To msaqibj:
sorry for troubling u all this while...i've realized the futility of my efforts with u...please dont mind my not responding to Ur sensible peices ...i feel u dont know a thing about India or Hindus , can't point out hyderabad or junagadh on an atlas, dont even know that more than half the hindus eat beef...but still u cant resist poking Ur nose in and showering Ur unwanted advice about these topics, thereby making it impossible to have any reasonable discussion. Goodbye and enjoy Ur life! U've succeeded in getting me into trouble with the admin once ..i dont want that again.

Mr. Queer:
some people have one problme, some might have two but you are full of problems. If you call some one names then be ready to take it back too. My opinion about Mushriks is always like that and it would always be the same, Insha'Allah.
On one side you used the Word Hypocrites for Muslims just using the Medicine and one the other hand you are teaching me the peace. You think you can misguide the people with you bogus ideas and lack of intelligence theories full of lame excuses?
You are not only full of Hypocrite but also a psycho too. You want to sever your Hindu community in the outfit of an Atheist but listen, people can recognize you no matter what dress you use.
You tell me, are there no riots against Muslims on every Eid-ul-Azaha in the name of Cow Safety? Then why these Hindus eat the Big Macs and Whoppers?
The Problem with you is that if I give you the example of Hindus, you say that you are an atheist and you do not believe in Hinduism, if some one write against Hindus, you are all there to save the Hindu Interests.
"That is why I have to hit you hard from your both ends to get the truth out of you"

As usual, Ur brilliant arguments leave no room for me to defend myself.....i don't object to any of Ur allegations. Please accept my congratulations.

And BTW, this is the last post where i'm gonna reply 2 U. So feel free 2 abuse me...i'm not gonna respond.

Mr. Queer:
I am neither abusing nor making this a fight of win or loose. This is a simple try from me to tell the people facts about Kashmir, Hyderabad and Juna Ghar. This is just a simple try to tell the people how forcefully India invaded the Hyderabad and Juna Ghar.
These are my tries to tell the people that how these people come in different outfits with the same agenda.
It is good that you are not going to answer my posts because your posts were full of conflicts between atheism and Hinduism. First you decide what you are then come back and reply.
I have been on this Gupshup for more than four months and I am sure either you or some one else would come using different nick with the same excuses as you had this time.

I PROPOSE:

I propose that my Ahmedi brothers IGNORE posts from Mr.Xtreme (as in Extremist)- simply because, the guy has no credibility; his only intention is to malign & trash anyone who dare criticize “the distorted Islam that he represents”. His intention is also to prevent true dialogue & discussion on the Spirit Of Islam by defending the perpetrators of barbarism; and he does that repeatedly in my posts

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

1)HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AGAINST WOMEN (2)HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES- MIDDLE EAST (3)TALEBAN:IS THIS THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM? (4)OUR KILLING FIELDS posted in the General Forum.

[This message has been edited by Adbulmalick (edited May 01, 1999).]