A NATION is known by the role-models it keeps

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Well brother this verse is very clearly indicating some unnatural relation between Mehmood and Ayaz which U intentionally fail to understand........understandably though. In our religion we are not allowed to hate anyone. Be it Mehmood or anyone else. And ur allegation of turning the meaning of the verse in question is baselss unless U give us the correct-according-to-U meaning of this verse.

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Below is the complete Ghazal, from where you have taken this verse and concluded him as a Gay ( again because you Indians hate him)

Now read the ghazal ( which i hope you have red it) and try to understand what message poet is trying to convey!!!! i know you will still stand that Mehmood was gay because Iqbal say so ( and i don't know which Iqbal, as Illama Iqbal has never said so).. but what to accept from an biased hindu Indian...

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Allama Iqbal is very clear in indicating the unnatural relation between Mehmood and Ayaz in this verse. Still U r in the denial mode which is quiet astonishing to me. And U seems to have turned down my very humble request not to use words like U Indians or U hindus. as U wish.

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So, when it Pakistan's role model, why are u putting your views, u can keep it to urself or atmost convey to other Indians and hindus of ur type.. we have no problem with that...
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U can continue with ur problems brother, I dont care about them. And since its a discussion forum, so I m very much entitled just like urself to put in my views on a certain personality or subject.

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No body knows that how they gonna be dealt on the day of judgement, Nor Shah Jahaan who wasted millions for building tomb of his wife and later cutting hands/killing the engineers and architects of the same.. which to me is far more brutal... Now again homosexulality is according to you and you have totally fail to back your allegation with any substantial eveidence.. so how do you think the sin of false allegations are treated in Hinduism... oh yes i remember if it is done by a hindu of upper caste and it is against a lower caste hindu or non-muslim it is not even considered a crime...

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Well brother I havent levelled any false allegation on Mehmood, the verse, which we are discussing in this thread is concrete proof of my allegation. And U need to educate urself about hindus or hinduism just like I have eduated myself about Islam and Muslims. U fail to realize that more U point ur finger towards me about being biased, ur three fingers point urself about the same.

I honestly feel that allegation on Shahjahan about chopping of hands are baseless. As far as spending millions on building is concerned, ALLAH knows better how he is going to deal with those who have spent millions and billions in erecting large buildings but havent thought of building of schools and hospitals. ALLAH hu Alim.

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I have same views about u, so far, you have all false allegation may be creating of some hindu/indian historian which you are trying to prove through the poetry of Iqbal, Means, one is gay because you hindus hate him and will go to the last corner of the world to raise your voice... wait a minute same techinque is used by the propoganda news channels of your, repeat the lie again and again... you misreable liar now that your lie about Mehmood Ghaznavi have exposed i am sure you are **DHEAT **enough to come up with a new one or may continue to believe this.. after all this is what INDIAN and HINDUS are good at...
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LOL at someone's arrogant behaviour. I m really disappointed to note that my prayers are yet not working. But InshAllah they will work coz I have full faith in ALLAH. Till than U are more than welcome to use ur decent words for me and my fellowmen and my Nation. But yes, this makes me more and more convinced that U too are aware that ur hero was a gay and U are unable to defend him from this allegation. Now U want to indimidate me by ur decent language, which is next to impossible. U are yet to bring any explaination about the verse in question which can prove that Gaznawi was not a gay but a Momin.

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So when it comes to your gods it is not allowed to criticize a teenager who used to steal the clothes of bathing damsels... but you feel comfortable on putting forward a baseless allegation on the heroes of other nation, is that what Hinduvata teaches you.. You HINDUS are munh maiN RAM RAM, BAGHAL MaiN Churi and you are example of the same...

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No when it comes to holy quran, U are not allowed to criticize gods of any religion. I again and again and again wonder what was in Mehmood's personality which has made U to forget the commands of ALLAH. U are claiming without any evidence that Krishna, the hindu god in question, was a teenager. There are loads of evidence to prove that he was a child, and these acts of him are called BAL-LEELA (acts of childhood) in hinduism. And there is a vast difference between Heros of Nation and gods of a particular religion. Have U ever read holy quran or not?

Hindutva teaches us to be nice and respectfull to every religion. Something which U have never been taught of, which is clearly evident from the contents of ur posts. But its never too late to get educated about good things. I can volunteer myself for this tough but noble job to teach U. Plz read carerully the verse I have provided from holy quran in my post #17 and feel free to ask for its meaning in case U fail to understand. Islam teaches its followers not to insult gods of any religion, I wonder U have not been taught this so far. So sorry for u brother, but as I said its never too late. I hope now U start behaving Islamically. May ALLAH help U to right path, AMEEN.

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I wonder how Did our Holy Prophet (PBUH) came into the picture, you were asked to provide ref. about ur claim, you failed to do so, putting** a verse which is not even remotely connected with the allegation you made.. I am hundred time better than those bigots ( consider urself one), as Mehmood Ghaznavi is one of the respectable personalities of Islamic History and bigots like you are putting up false allegation on them,** and when asked for ref. you put up that verse.. this is what a HINDU do when his lie is exposed..
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LOL at ur Masoomiyat brother. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) havent come in picture, but to educate U I brought those **MORONS **who malign his character and asked U to compare ureslf with them. U have told me that U are hundred times better than those bigots.

U have ordered myself to consider me one of those bigots because U consider Mehmood Gaznawi as one of the respectable personality of Islamic history, perhaps U feel that insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and insulting Mehmood Gaznawi is same NAUJOBILLAH. Why dont U watch ur words brother? and how about consulting a Alim who have good knowledge of Urdu too? Plz try this may help U.

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now please tell me, why you hindu worship a guy who use to steal clothes of women and is it allow in your religion to follow his sunnah ( i hope you are aware of the word Sunnah)
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I m here to answer all ur questions, but first U will have to learn the TAHZEEB how to ask questions. And plz dont remain in delusion that ur insults are making me frustated or anything. Rather it makes my reslove to pray ALLAH for U even more stronger coz I feel that bringing anyone on right path is a noble act. And I m committed to the same. May ALLAH show U the right path AMEEN.

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No Peace with Hindu

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To U is ur religion and to me is mine.

Peace to U brother.

22

I Have given complete Ghazal, and only a biased hindu like you can come with some thing unnatural about the relation of Mehmood and Ayaaz... and u r doing it.. i really doubt is it because you lack the knowledge and sense to understand the poetry of Iqbal or is it your biased behaviour which is not allowing you to think wisely.. i guess it is second one.. and for you who worship cowards liek Ram and villans like Krishan.. this is not extra ordinary...

23

LOL, giving complete gazal wont help brother, U still failed to describe the meaning of verse in question which clearly indicates something unnatural was going on between Mehmood and Ayaz. And I again remind U the teachings of Islam and holy quran. Speaking in insulting manner about gods of any religion is forbidden in Islam. When U are gonna understand this? Is it something like biased behaviour which stops U to understand commands of ALLAH? How disappointing.

May ALLAH show U the right path AMEEN.

24

Oh bhai, the verse does not prove anything and anyone who have little knowledge of Iqbal and his verses will just laugh at you or others who are using this verse to prove Mehmood Ghaznavi as a Gay....

Now listen to this i am sure you won't be able to understand it, as you are one of those most biased hindu

Iqbal is saying that, There no body like Mehmood left, who despite all the risks and danger will go to the Kafirstan and fight for the Muslims, on the same note, he is saying nor does Slaves like Ayaz exists anymore, who will not think about the consequences of the order given by his Master...

And all this not in the lusty way that your dirty hindu mind is drawing.. it is all said in patriotic terms... anyway the followers of coward Ram who waited years to go and get her beloved wife and worshipers of theif god will not understand what dignity is or stands for...

I did for a second thought that by writing complete ghazal you may understand the verse but it my fault to give you this credit.. a credit of being intellect.. you were unable to prove that Mehmood was gay from the poetry of Iqbal but you have proved that Indians are biased and anyone hoping and friendly relationships with them is a fool...

25

Re: A NATION is known by the role-models it keeps

@ raj

i think aurangzeb alam gir (RA) and Mehmood Ghaznavi (RA) are indeed our hero.

26

Well mere bhai, I have consulted several urdu ustads and even some learned alims regarding this verse, almost all but few were of the view that Iqbal was indicating about the unholy relation between Mehmood and Ayaz. There are many Islamic scholers who object to the following verse just coz of Mehmood's character and feel that they should not be used to glorify Islam.

**Ek Hi Saf Me Khare Ho Gaye Mehmood O Ayaz

Na Koi Banda Raha Na Koi Banda Nawaz
**
I doubt ur ability to understand Iqbal's poetry.

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Iqbal is saying that, There no body like Mehmood left, who despite all the risks and danger will go to the Kafirstan and fight for the Muslims, on the same note, he is saying nor does Slaves like Ayaz exists anymore, who will not think about the consequences of the order given by his Master...

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LOL at ur understanding of Iqbal, so U make it out like this

*Na woh Ishq maiN raheeN germiyaaN, na woh husn maiN raheeN shokhiyaaN
na woh ghazanvi maiN tarp rahee, na woh kham hay zulf-e-Ayaaz maiN *

Means that

**no body like Mehmood left, who despite all the risks and danger will go to the Kafirstan and fight for the Muslims, on the same note, he is saying nor does Slaves like Ayaz exists anymore, who will not think about the consequences of the order given by his Master...

**WOW brother, ur funny description of this verse has really created a new milestone in urdu poetry..........lol. I m sure that members will enjoy it.

Plz go and learn again how to interpretate an urdu poetry and that too by Iqbal. Had Iqbal wanted to explain what U are trying to prove than he could have not used names of Mehmood and Ayaz in this manner in his verse, But I m sure that Iqbal's poetry are not for U.

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And all this not in the lusty way that your dirty hindu mind is drawing.. it is all said in patriotic terms... anyway the followers of coward Ram who waited years to go and get her beloved wife and worshipers of theif god will not understand what dignity is or stands for...
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Its unfortunate brother that Inspite of my reminding U several times the teaching of holy quran, U still deny to honour it. Plz let me know what U found in **CHARACTER **of Mehmood Gaznawi that U are so hell bent to even violate commands of ALLAH for him. Patriotic terms...........lol.

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I did for a second thought that by writing complete ghazal you may understand the verse but it my fault to give you this credit.. a credit of being intellect.. you were unable to prove that Mehmood was gay from the poetry of Iqbal but you have proved that Indians are biased and anyone hoping and friendly relationships with them is a fool...
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Allama Iqbal has proven by his verse that Mehmood was a gay. Now U can try becoming a big mouth and intellectual, but thats not gonna help U. if something will help U out thats my prayers for U. May ALLAH show U the right path AMEEN.

Peace to U brother.

kitni majburoya ham palkon pe saja lete hein
27

U are absolutely right in ur thinking brother, I agree.

28

Raj_ind,

So you are saying here that the relatiions between Mehmood and Ayaz were gay. This is quite shocking news. I still remember when we were studying Shikwa and Jawabe Shikwa in 10th grade, we were explained what Hanibal is saying here. It is our text books which has made them heroes. For us they are still heroes by default.

Novelist Nasim Hijazi is another one who made Mehmood Ghaznavi as super hero in "Aakhri Maarka". When in his seventeenth attack he destroyed statue saying that "main farosh nahin but shikan hon. Mohammad Hussain Azad, the urdu writer has also said the same thing in our Urdu text book in lesson on Mehmood Ghaznavi. He wrote when India and Pakistan were still one country.

Even if you are telling the truth, you can not win this argument. I think that "Ek Hi Saf Me Khare Ho Gaye Mehmood O Ayaz" was followed by

Sahibo ghani, muhtaj o faqir ek houay
teri darbar main pohnchay to sabhi ek houay

Both sher are inter related. That is how teachers explained us in the class.

Your argument here will be taken as Selman Rushdie wrote "Satanic Verses" maligning our Prophet Mohammad. So chill my friend.

29

What if I say Varun Gandhi is your hero because a certain Punabi from your country supports him on GS...don't trust this guy as even Zia ul haq is also his hero. I am sure even Osama bin Laden is also his hero though he will not admit this openly. He is the only one defending the pathetic dictator Ziaulhaq, but if you look at any poll conducted in Pakistan Zia is one of the most hated guys in pakistan !!!

30


**

LOL at ur logics

you read what you like and understand it what suits u best,

The verse of Shikwa where it says that Mehmood the KING and Ayaaz the Slave have stood in the the same row in front of Allah just states the fact that in Islam the wordly designation means nothing ( obviously it is something very hard for u to understand) and taking in account that you cannot even understand a mere verse or Nazm, how can you understand a verse of Ghazal, which is often more complicated than the verse of Nazm.

To me you and ur so-called urdu ustaads wears the same glass and that is biased hindu or least they are dirty minds who have translated a simple thing into a lusty element... i can unerstand this from a person who follow a religon which is 95% comprised of sex and related stories...

Now can you keep your dirty interpretations to urself, and try to get some education, i have already said in my earlier post that you may never understand this.... and from your this post and example.. you have proved me right...

I don't know if asking about the ill doings of other gods is prohibted in Islam, may be agian you have some verse for that, i hope this time that verse have some clear meaning and does not only refects the dirt in your mind..

now i can accept a worshipper of theif to do all kind of ill-doings.. and you are doing it now tell me if your great lord krishna was not a theif?

**

31

Raj_ind.

I realize your mastery of Iqbal and Urdu language.

But don't you think it is a bit distracting from the original topic?

Mahmood for sure was a "servant" of Ghaznavi. If you want to believe that in medieval times, "some master/servant relationship turned sexual", that may / may not be true.

Regardless of what Ghaznavi did in his tent or bedroom, don't you think and Indian should focus more on "what Ghaznavi did OUTSIDE his tent/bedroom"?

Ghaznavi's documented cruelty (cruelty that is strictly forbidden by Islamic teachings) towards 1000s of innocent people, perhaps should carry more weight in our discussion??????

32

Well I think that I have posted my argument on this subject and Hanibal has posted his.......so there is no neeed to keep it scratching. Now as u have rightly pointed out about the verse, the complete verse is, I think as follows.

**Aa gaya Ain ladai me agar waqt e namaz
Kibla ru hokar sazde me giri quam e hijaz
ek hi saf me khare ho gaye mehmoood o ayaz
na koi banda raha nakoi bandanawaz.

Sahib o faqir, muhtaj o gani ek hue
tere darbar me pahoche to sabhi ek hue.**

Now being a big fan of Iqbal myself, I personally like this verse too much. But what I m told by some urdu ustads and alims is that Mehmood and Ayaz should not have been used to glorify Islamic traditions. which has been done in this verse.

Now how that verse, which we were previously discussing, is taught to U in ur school days is another matter for me. from my own understanding, I honestly feel that the verse in question indicates about some unholy relations between Mehmood and Ayaz. Period.

Peace to U.

33

LOL brother, U can say that, but that will only prompt me to request not to malign my way of thinking by leveling such allegations on me. I will not start glorifying him.

Peace to U.

If You Have A Chance To Meet In Real
34

I think Iqbal has glorified Islamic traditions not only describing them. You have to connect whole Shikwa and Jawabe Shikwa for that matter.

When he said in Shikwa

tere Quraan to senay se lagaya hum ne
tere kaaba to jabinon se basaya hum ne

in Jawabe Shikwa he said

tere Quraan to senay se lagaya kis ne
tere kaaba to jabinon se basaya kis ne

they to woh aba o ajdad tumharay hi
magar tum kya ho haath pe haath dharay mantezare farda ho

Finally he said

ki Mohammad se wafa tu nay to hum tere hain
yeh jehan chiz kya loh o kalam tere hain

So he summed up on Prophet Mohammad, thus he finally glorified Islamic tradition.

If I am not wrong, when he wrote Shikwa, maulvis issued Fatwa against Iqbal that he was blasphemous and Kaafir. Iqbal was forced to write Jawabe Shikwa under pressure from maulvis.

35

Lol bro..

We are still lucky that a vast majority of people in both our countries are moderates and bear no hatred towards each other. However we have our share of extremist and you have yours. These guys are just looking for some more topics to post their hate arguments..

And your post regarding hate being an essential human nature in another thread, I totally disagree with that. Hate is a feeling induced in human beings by other fellow human beings when the former stops using his own brain and starts using the brain of other....

Your comment that religions have played their role in inducing hatred is absolutely correct...somebody correctly said " religious hatred was born the day when the first scoundrel met the first idiot "...

36

Peace burqaposhx,

I m not a master but a humble fan of both Iqbal and Urdu, but what pains me when some ppls of a particular religion and nation claim ownership on both of them.

I really think and feel sorry for being a tool in distracting a whole topic, but my intentions were not such and I only added two names which I thought to be icons of ur nation. how this hurt a brother and he became quiet brutal on me and my religion, which distracted whole topic.

I agree and I have been pointing out whole thing that according to Islamic teachings, Gaznawi couldnt be termed a good human being even, leave alone being an icon for a whole Islamic nation. But some would never hear what a kafir has to say.

I honestly believe that the only qualification of Gaznawi which makes him icon of some, was that he was mass murderer of Hindus and a great Butshikan. Thus hurting religious sentiments of a community.

Peace to U.

37

If it is ture how Ghaznavi would become a role model? Are you out of your mind? A homo sexual would be considered as hero of Muslims. Quraan has categorically condemned gay relationships. Sodam and Gamorah were destroyed due to very same reason.

38

Brother I think that the discussion is over and it has been established that Mehmood was indeed a gay ruler and a bad human being who was responsible for genocide of a particular community. We have seen reincarnation of him in George Bush if U can realize.

Now U can keep using ur clean mind and decent words, but tht wont help in turning the meaning of any verse. Who need education is very much clear from entire topic. U can pat ur back urself and claim urself right, but that wont change the reality, or will it?

Ur question about Krishna stealing clothes is product of same mentality which often try to malign the holy prophet by questioning his marriages. And even after getting the corrrect and reasonable answer, they keep repeating same and same question. I have told U repeated times that Krishna was a smalll child when he used to steal chothes, but ur mentality doesnt need a suitable answer but it want to play a sadist just like other bashers of religious personaities.

But since U have proven ur religious identity many times in this thread, its quiet useless to tell U all this. Still I m not losing hope and praying for U that ALLAH show U the right path. AMEEN.

Peace to U.

Poetic Lines from Filmi Songs
39

Do U think that he was a mass murderer? or not?

40

Iqbal has indeed glorified Islamic traditions many times, but the point was that he should not hve used reference of Mehmood and Ayaz while doing that coz of their questionable relations. This is not according to me but according to many scholers of urdu and Islam.

Peace.