A Look at Hadith Rejecters' Claims

The last thing i want to do is start another shia/sunni argument. Thats not my intention at all nor do i have anything against shias, since i have several close shia friends. I cant, and im not trying to, change anyone’s beliefs. But this is something i feel strongly about and i just had to post this article. I know its long and most of you have probably seen it but please bear with me

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

A Look at Hadith Rejecters’ Claims

Summary of Hadith Rejecters’ Claims

  1. A) We, Quranists, do not make a distinction between obeying Allah and obeying His Messenger, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam. Anyone who obeys the Qur’an has no other option but to obey the Messenger, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, too. Had we been living with him, we would have no hesitation in blindly following his orders. We do make a distinction but that is between Allah and Hadith collectors like Bukhari, Muslim, Nassai, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud. We accept Allah’s Word that He has protected the Quran from corruption, but why should we accept the words of these hadith collectors? Are they as infallible as Allah?

  2. B) Qur’an is sufficient and does not need any further explanation.

  3. Hadith is the same as the gospels of Christianity. Indeed the time span between death of Messenger Muhammad, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, and the compilation of Sahihs was almost the same as that between the departure of Jesus, Alayhis salam, and compilation of the Bible. How can Muslims reject one but accept the other?

  4. Dr. Maurice Bucaille finds that Saheeh is as unscientific as the Bible.

  5. The Messenger, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, may have elaborated on items like mode of salah. Such hadith is probably from the Messenger, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, and should be obeyed. But what about the hadith that contradict the Qur’an.

  6. The root cause of Muslim decay is their reverence for the hadith.

  7. Allah has protected only the Qur’an – not Islam – from corruption.

  8. Allah expects from His slaves exclusive servitude. When Sunnis talk of Quran and Sunnah, the Qur’an is undermined for its exclusivity is lost.

“If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path.” [Al-Ahzab, 33:36]
“He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory.” [Al-Ahzab, 33:71].

For the past fourteen centuries Qur’an and Sunnah have been the twin undisputed sources of Guidance for Muslims. In every generation, the Muslims devoted the best of their minds and talents to their study. They learned both the words and meanings of the Qur’an through the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, and made an unprecedented effort in preserving them for the next generation. The result: The development of the marvelous – and unparalleled – science of hadith, one of the brightest aspects of Muslim history.

What does it mean to believe in a Prophet except to pledge to follow him? And so the teachings of the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, have always guided this Ummah. No body, in his right mind, could or did question this practice. Then something happened. During the colonial period, when most of the Muslim world came under the subjugation of the West, some “scholars” arose in places like Egypt (Taha Hussein), India (Abdullah Chakralawi and Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz), and Turkey (Zia Gogelup), who began questioning the authenticity and relevance of hadith. It was not that some genius had found flaws in the hadith study that had eluded the entire ummah for thirteen centuries. It was simply that the pressures from the dominant Western civilization to conform were too strong for them to withstand. They buckled. Prophetic teachings and life example – Hadith – was the obstacle in this process and so it became the target.

Another factor helped them. Today most Muslims, including the vast majority of the western-educated Muslims, have meager knowledge of hadith, having spent no time in studying even the fundamentals of this vast subject. How many know the difference between Sahih and Hasan, or between Maudau and Dhaif? The certification process used in hadith transmission? Names of any hadith book produced in the first century of Hijrah, or the number of such books? A majority probably would not be able to name even the six principal hadith books (Sihah Sitta) or know anything about the history of their compilation. Obviously such atmosphere provides a fertile ground for sowing suspicions and doubts.

They call themselves as ahle-Qur’an or Quranists. This is misleading. For their distinction is not in affirming the Qur’an, but in rejecting the Hadith. The ideas of munkareen-e-hadith evolve into three mutually contradictory strains. The first holds that the job of the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, was only to deliver the Qur’an. We are to follow only the Qur’an and nothing else, as were the Companions. Further, hadith is not needed to understand the Qur’an, which is sufficient for providing guidance. The second group holds that the Companions were required to follow the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, but we are not. The third holds that, in theory, we also have to follow the hadith but we did not receive ahadith through authentic sources and therefore we have to reject all ahadith collections!

Internal contradictions are a hallmark of false ideologies. How can anyone hold the first position yet profess belief in Qur’an while it says: “And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them.” [An-Nahal, 16:44]. And this: “Allah did confer a great favor on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error.” [A’ale Imran 3:164].

How can anyone hold the second position (limiting the Prophethood to 23 years) yet profess belief in Qur’an, while it says: “We did not send you except as Mercy for all creatures.” [Al-Anbia, 21:107] And, “We have not sent you except as a Messenger to all mankind, giving them glad tidings and warning them against sin.” [Saba, 34:28]

The third position seems to have avoided these obvious pitfalls, yet in reality it is no different. Consider statements 1, 4, and 7 in the summary of hadith rejecters’ claims. So hadith undermines Qur’an’s exclusivity, yet would have been followed blindly at the time of the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam. Ahadith cannot be followed because they are not reliable, yet can be followed for ritual prayers.

Salah And Hadith Rejecters

But we don’t need a favor for hadith about salah (coming from the same books and the same narrators who are declared as unreliable). We need an answer to this question: If the Qur’an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salah, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that.

(Recently some hadith rejecters have realized the difficulty of their position on salah. But they have made a claim that is even more ludicrous, namely that the Qur’an gives details on how to offer salah. “A careful reading of the Koran reveals that we are to get our Salaah from the Masjid-el Haraam [the continuous practice at Mecca since the time of Abraham],” says one proponent, “specifically the ‘place of Abraham (moqaam e Ibraheem).’” Let us leave aside all the practical questions about such a fluid answer. Whose Salah? When? Are we to follow anyone and everyone we find praying at Muqame Ibrahim? How are those offering salah there are to determine proper way of offering Salah? How do you resolve their differences? In his enthusiasm in proposing this innovative solution, this proponent even forgot that the Qur’an says the following about the salah of mushrikeen at the Masjid-el Haraam: “Their prayer at the House of Allah is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. (Its only answer can be), ‘Taste the chastisement because you blasphemed.’” [Al-Anfal 8:35] )

The Reliability of Resources

To accept one and reject the other source on the basis of reliability (statement #2) also defies reason, unless we received the Qur’an directly from Allah. But we have received both Qur’an and Hadith through the same channels. Same people transmitted this as the Word of Allah, that as the word of the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi was sallam. Even the verse claiming that Qur’an will be protected came to us through the same people. Through what logic can anyone declare that the channels are reliable for Qur’an and unreliable for Hadith? On the contrary the Quranic promise of protection must apply to Hadith as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the meanings of the Qur’an.

Protection of Qur’an

To say that Allah promised to protect only Qur’an but not Islam (#6) is being as ridiculous as one can get. Let’s ignore the obvious question regarding the point of this Heavenly act. The question is if Islam has been corrupted and its true teachings have been lost, how can anyone claim to be its follower? Moreover, Qur’an says “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost” [A’al-e-Imran, 3:85]. How are we to follow the religion acceptable to Allah if it was not to be protected?

Were Ahadith Written Down for the First Time in the Third Century of Hijra?

The above proves that ahadith must have been protected. Were they? The very existence of a huge library of hadith – the only one of its kind among the religions of the world – answers the question in the affirmative. To dismiss all that as later day fabrication (#1A, #2) requires lots of guts – and equal parts ignorance. Were ahadith written down for the first time in the third century of Hijra? Not at all. Actually hadith recording and collection started at the time of the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam. Abd-Allah ibn Amr ibn al-'As, Radi-Allahu unhu, sought and was given the permission to write everything he heard from the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa Sallam, who said: “By the One in Whose Hands is my life! Whatever proceeds from here [pointing to his mouth] is the truth.” He produced Sahifa Sadiqa, which contained more than six thousand ahadith. Anas ibn Malik, Radi-Allahu unhu, who spent ten years in Prophet’s household, not only recorded the ahadith but also presented them to the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, and got corrections. Abu Hurairah, Radi-Allahu unhu, had many volumes of his collections and even produced smaller compilations for his students. Prominent Hadith scholar Dr. Mustafa Azami has shown in his doctoral thesis that in the first century of Hijra many hundred booklets of hadith were in circulation. By the end of the second century, “by the most conservative estimate there were many thousands.”

Of course most of these books do not exist today. They were simply absorbed into the encyclopedic collections that emerged in the third century. One manuscript from the first century was discovered in this century and published by Dr. Hamidullah. It is Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbah, who was a disciple of Abu Hurairah, Radi-Allahu unhu. It contains 138 ahadith. Muhaddithin knew that the ahadith of this Sahifa had been absorbed into Musnad Ahmed and Muslim collections, which have been published continuously since their third century debut. After the discovery of the original manuscript it was naturally compared with the ahadith in Muslim and Musnad Ahmed that were thought to have come from that Sahifa. And what did they find? There was not an iota of difference between the two. Similarly Mussanaf of Abd al-Razzaq is extant and has been published. As has been Mu’ammar ibn Rashid’s al-Jami. These recently discovered original manuscripts bear out the Sihah Sitta. The recent appearance of these original manuscripts should bring the most skeptical into the fold of believers.

Saheeh and the Gospels

Regarding comparison of Saheeh with Gospels (#2), let’s listen to Dr. Hamidullah. “The compilation of the Gospels, their preservation and transmission from one generation to the other, has not taken place in the way which governed the books of Hadith… We do not know who wrote them, who translated them, and who transmitted them. How were they transferred from the original Aramaic to Greek? Did the scribes make arrangements for a faithful reproduction of the original? The four Gospels are mentioned, for the first time, three hundred years after Christ. Should we rely on such an unauthentic book in preference to that of Bukhari who prefaces every statement of two lines with three to nine references?”

The Comments of Dr. Maurice Bucaille

Dr. Maurice Bucaille earned the admiration of many Muslims because of his study of some scientific phenomena mentioned in the Qur’an and his testimony based on that study that Qur’an must be the Book of Allah. However he is not a hadith scholar and it is unfair to drag him into this discussion. His account of history of hadith compilation contains many errors, for example the claim that the first gathering of hadith was performed roughly forty years after Hijra or that no instructions were given regarding hadith collection. He questions about a dozen or so entries in Bukhari that he thinks deal with scientific matters. Even if all that criticism were valid, would it be sufficient ground to throw away the 9082 total entries (2602 unique ahadith) in Bukhari? He himself does not think so, for he writes: “The truth of hadith, from a religious point of view, is beyond question.”

The Hadith Regarding the Sun

But even his criticism is of questionable value. Consider the hadith about the sun: “At sunset the sun prostrates itself underneath the Throne and takes permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then a time will come when it will be about to prostrate itself… it will seek permission to go on its course… it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the West.” His criticism: “This implies the notion of a course the sun runs in relation to the Earth.” Bucaille fails to understand the real message of this hadith. It was not meant to teach astronomy. Its clear message is that sun is a slave of Allah, moving always through His Will. The hadith brings out that message very powerfully so that even the most illiterate bedouin would understand it fully. Moreover Bucaille should know better than to criticize the implied notion of sun’s rotation around earth. Even today the astronomers, when calculating the time of sunrise and sunset, use a mathematical model in which the sun revolves around the earth. If that is acceptable for scientific work as it makes calculations easier, why is it questionable, when it makes communication easier?

Also there are other ahadith which clearly demonstrate a scientific fact beyond the knowledge of the times but Bucaille has failed to take notice. For example the hadith about solar eclipse: “The sun and moon are two signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone’s death or on account of anyone’s birth.” (Muslim, hadith #1966]. The eclipse had coincided with the death of Prophet’s son. A false prophet would have tried to exploit the occasion. A fabricated hadith would require scientific knowledge that did not exist then.

The munkareen-e-hadith think that their beliefs are built on solid rock. Well, it is as solid as wax: The religion based on this idea can be fitted into any mold. For some hadith rejecters that was the motivation. For everyone, that is the inevitable result. But the good news is that their arguments are the same way. On the surface they appear to be solid. But faced with the light of truth, they melt away like wax.

[This message has been edited by hk (edited October 30, 2000).]

pleeeeeeaaase read the ENTIRE article before making any comments and remember, im NOT trying to offend anyone…so be nice!!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

HK,i don't know about every words of this ,but just by your title & few sentenceses i got the feeling that this aricle is by one of those 'Smartie" qadiyani who have large number in your toranto ,ontario area ,holding convention under islamic banner & fooling muslims & non muslims alike

Khuda ko maan ne walla muslma ho nahi sakta

I wont give the second misra untill end. Continuing on the correctness of Islam majority muslim know that koran with accompanying hadith & sunnah makes imman.To simplistically profess that i have this "bible "like book Korn ,which all of my non muslim friend ,thinking that way ,they can challenge me all the time by asking which page of koran says this? But they don't know that whole direction of life cannot be written in simple languaage that in translation of Pickthal,Shakir &yusuf Ali they can know as much as me .Nothing can be farther from truth.
The last misra of the couplet khuda ko maan ne walla mussalman ho nahi
sakta

Ba juz hube mohommed ke Kaamil imaan honahi saakta

Hope you get my opinion about hadith & sunnah which is ESSENTIAL to be muslim.

HK,i don't know about every words of this ,but just by your title & few sentenceses i got the feeling that this aricle is by one of those 'Smartie" qadiyani who have large number in your toranto ,ontario area ,holding convention under islamic banner & fooling muslims & non muslims alike

Khuda ko maan ne walla muslma ho nahi sakta

I wont give the second misra untill end. Continuing on the correctness of Islam majority muslim know that koran with accompanying hadith & sunnah makes imman.To simplistically profess that i have this "bible "like book Korn ,which all of my non muslim friend ,thinking that way ,they can challenge me all the time by asking which page of koran says this? But they don't know that whole direction of life cannot be written in simple languaage that in translation of Pickthal,Shakir &yusuf Ali they can know as much as me .Nothing can be farther from truth.
The last misra of the couplet khuda ko maan ne walla mussalman ho nahi
sakta

Ba juz hube mohommed ke Kaamil imaan honahi saakta

Hope you get my opinion about hadith & sunnah which is ESSENTIAL to be muslim.

Listen, I specifically said read the ENTIRE article before commenting. This has NOTHING to do with Qaddiyanis…im a SUNNI. The site that posted this article, is a genuine MUSLIM site…it even has articles exposing the Qaddiyani cult.
THERE!! Have i said enough to clear your misunderstanding???

If you wont bother to read the article in its entirety, atleast dont words in my mouth!!
Again…everyone else, please be nicer than AzasMunna here

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by hk (edited October 31, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by hk (edited October 31, 2000).]

Hi,
This article seems interesting but can you inform me who these hadith rejecters are?

They cant be shias(coz they have there own hadiths) Nor can they be wahabis so who are you pointing your finger at?

To my knowledge there was a sect or a group of people known as 'Rafidas' who considered Quran as the ONLY source of islam. IMO this article refers to that sect/group.

However, these days there is also an increasing tendency amongst some muslims, to disregard ahadith or to pronounce them as weak ahadith. This impression is deliberately created to guide muslims away from the second biggest source of islamic teachings and jurisprudence, and bestow confusion in the minds of muslims, thus creating trouble and fitna amongst the believers.

May Allah protect muslims from all such evil intentions... Ameen

Adios!

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**To my knowledge there was a sect or a group of people known as 'Rafidas' who considered Quran as the ONLY source of islam. IMO this article refers to that sect/group.

However, these days there is also an increasing tendency amongst some muslims, to disregard ahadith or to pronounce them as weak ahadith. This impression is deliberately created to guide muslims away from the second biggest source of islamic teachings and jurisprudence, and bestow confusion in the minds of muslims, thus creating trouble and fitna amongst the believers.

May Allah protect muslims from all such evil intentions... Ameen

Adios!**
[/quote]

Yeah i've seen people claim that most Hadiths are not true and a whole lot of rubbish! But look at it this way you can't call a Shai a hadith rejector like miss hk claims!

Not really. Shias are not hadith rejectors. If someone says it, its a misconception. Rafidas are something else.

Also to note, that the major collection of hadith accepted by sunni muslims are called 'sahih' (Sahah-e-Sata'a). Interesetingly many of the hadith collected there are narrated by shia scholars, and many ahadith are referenced to Hazrat Ali (RA). So these sahih are not entirely sunni books. However, shia scholars also collected ahadith narrated exclusively by ahl-e-bayat and shia scholars. All this goes to prove that both sunni and shia accept the importance of ahadith.

This new trend which I was referring to is actually quite sad. Simple ordinary muslims are brain-wahsed that ahadith were collected 300 years later and most of them are fabricated, therefore a muslim should only rely on Quran. This is the trend which this article by hk refers to. Another tactic employed is to try and degrade the position of our Prophet (SAWW).

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited October 31, 2000).]

A little more on shia-sunni issue and why we should try to create more harmony amongst the shias and sunnis:

Different sects amongst muslims have always harboured the suspicion that the other sect has fabricated ahadith. This may or may not be true. In a truly muslim household, a child is usually exposed to the teachings of his/her sect. For example, a shia child will be taken to majalis etc and a sunni child will be going to sunni mosques and teachers.

All this exposure instills in the child a firm belief that his sect is absolutely correct and the other sect is wrong and has fabricated things in islam (bida'a). This phenomenon is quite natural. Once a child grows up, it takes an enormous amount of motivation for the individual to study different beliefs and intellectually accept what is right and what is wrong. Most of us, carry our belief's, fed into us from childhood, right upto our graves. In matters of hadith, this suspicion is instilled in the kids from a young age.

The shia kids are told that the hadith collected in Sahih are "collected by angry old men" who had no proper way of filtering and instead used their discretion to collect ahaidth. They are told that the hadith narrated by the ahl-e-bayat imams, are the only ones which should be considered authentic. As against that, the sunni children are told about the enormous efforts made by the collectors of ahadith to filter out fabricated ahaidth and that only authentic ahadith are collected. They are also told that Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic book after Quran. In addition the sunni kids are warned that shias have fabricated lots of ahadith so don't always rely on any hadith narrated by them. Followers of both sects carry out this subtle method of brain-washing to prepare their kids for going out in the real world and to be able to defend their beliefs.

Like it or not, this is all true. The effects are quite unfortunate. This attitude has created a deep suspicion in the minds of muslims and divided our ummah in two major groups i.e. shias and sunnis. Taking advantage of this divide several other spin-off sects were formed both from Shias and sunnis. However at present, it is estimated that 75% of all muslims are sunnis (ahl-e-sunnah) and the majority of the remaining are shias. Please note that the followers of four major imams (Abu Hanifa, Humble, Shafaiyee and Malik) are all called sunnis.

To say that all the problems the muslim ummah is facing today is because of shia and sunni divide is naive. Remember the shias and sunni were divided right from the first khilafat-e-rashida. And there was an open war in the time of Hazrat Ali (RA). Despite this history of suspicion, the muslims managed to bring a large area under their control and dominated the world for many many years.

What is required now is a better sense of brotherhood and tolerance and to unite the ummah on the matters where we are together and to keep our differences to a minimal, manageable level. This may seem difficult to most young emotional muslims. But all mature, intelligent, educated muslims would realize that this is the only way forward for this ummah.

mashallah!

Yaar, that was a very nice post. Are they really your own views?

If so, I agree that we need to bring more unity between the muslims.

Did you notice that when the muslims were being killed in Palestine recently (and still are), all muslims regardless Shia or Sunni voiced one opinion of outrage.

Prestine u are right for the most part but i just wanna ask u if u have read sahi bukhari? i recently put something here from sahi bukhari and it made alot of people angry..and thats probably the reason i got banned from gupshup..but i didnt make that up..it was right from sahi bukhari..so why did sunni ppl got offended?

Cool Dude

Yes, ofcourse, these views are mine

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

What do you think…? :slight_smile: In any case, your point is very valid that when muslims anywhere in the world are victims of cruelty, muslims from all sects feel hurt. This is bcz, a muslim is being killed, not because he did anything, but because of the simple fact that he is a muslim. A bullet by a zionist mercenary does not distinguish between shia and sunni.

SherazPaki:

Brother, I will be the last person to claim being a scholar of Islam or an expert of sunni or shia texts. Sahih Bukhari is a very volumnous book and I have only read those parts of it on which I was doing research at one time or the other.

I did read your post, as I have read similar posts by some other participants. Unfortunately, I was unable to fathom the intention behind your post. Had your intention been to carry out research and gain some knowledge then their are participants here who would have been more than happy to share their knowledge with you. On the other hand, if the intention was to demonstrate that religious texts of sunnis (Bukhari) is a collection of fabricated ahadith and that sunnis are ignorant people to be following such texts, then I will be the last person to engage in any such debate.

I neither condone attacks on the religious beliefs of sunnis nor appreciate attacks on religious beliefs of shias. IMO this forum is not to accentuate the disunity of muslims, but to share knowledge (and hopefully make new friends).

I have serious doubts if you were banned bcz you posted references from a religious book. If you want to find out why were you banned, then find out from the Admin. In any case, they have suggested in many places during the last few days that some users were banned from these forums because the accusations and finger-pointing had crossed acceptable limits and the use of language had deteriorated beyond the rules of the forum. But I am the wrong person to be offering any opinion on this matter.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Adios!

please just explain to me how can Prophet Moses be running after a stone naked? i just dont get it yaar..once mr watcher brought some references which basically were saying that shia are not muslims..so what i did was to ask a scholer about that and that person explained to me..now i would like somone to do some research on this..and explain to me how can that be true about Prophet Moses in the sahi bukhari..i dont think i m being abusive..thats not my intention..i just dont get this thing and i would like someone to explain to me..rather then gettin mad

If you really want to gain knowledge, then don’t rely on neem-mullahs like us in this forum.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Just as you go to sites like al-islam.org for any question, why don’t you try the following two sites for this particular question:

  1. www.islam-qa.com (accepts questions on every tuesday via email)
  2. www.albalagh.net

Submit your question to them, and hopefully a scholar will answer it for you. If you are satisfied, fine. Else you would atleast have the satisfaction, that you got the answer from a reputed scholar, and not from any one who happens to own a computer and has some free time.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

Adios!

[quote]
Originally posted by hk:
pleeeeeeaaase read the ENTIRE article before making any comments and remember, im NOT trying to offend anyone....so be nice!!! ;) ;)
[/quote]

HK,may be your first language is English,and you can understand more than me .You seem very defensive to be labelled AGAINST any thing.If you are pro something ,as you claim ,you got to be against something ,otherwise you are telling LIE .and trying to have your cake & eat too.Which seldom happens in real world.
What else is there in this article besides multiple quotes,daleel,argument points in favour of the authors position.I did read the post but if you want to know ,DID i "study" it- no ,inthat case i would have to research every piece of crap thrown out at you.I dont want to waste my time reading hare krishna daleel,either,neither qadiyanis nor bahai,nor shia,nor all the beliefs- if i have studied ,my own so well that that i am confident ,to stand up to any faith in debate!!Islam for me =koran +hadith +sunnah


OK, im sensing a lot of misunderstanding here. I just want to make something clear, i am not calling shias or anyone hadith rejectors. This article is basically for ANYONE who rejects hadith. The reason i mentioned shias at the very beginning was that DesertFox, who's shia, mentioned in another post that since the hadith were written 300+ years after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s death, they cannot be trusted to be authentic. This article, however, rejects that claim and mentions that the hadith were indeed written down and recorded way earlier.
Hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

Seems like there is lots of misunderstanding about each other(Shais and Sunnis)!

I fail to call my self Sunni or Shia I call myself a muslim and a muslim I am!

But I do get quite upset when Sunnis call Shais "full of Bidat" and Shais call Sunnis "full of Khalifa crap"

As far as I see all this mess in here was started by two guys named Watcher and Desert Fox and then the problems grew and grew! I don't know am I right?


Where is my Mumtaz?

[quote]
Originally posted by hk:
OK, im sensing a lot of misunderstanding here. I just want to make something clear, i am not calling shias or anyone hadith rejectors. This article is basically for ANYONE who rejects hadith. The reason i mentioned shias at the very beginning was that DesertFox, who's shia, mentioned in another post that since the hadith were written 300+ years after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s death, they cannot be trusted to be authentic. This article, however, rejects that claim and mentions that the hadith were indeed written down and recorded way earlier.
Hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

[/quote]

Thanx HK,I don't read very verbal post spl. when the conclusion can be summed up in one sentence.You will have post that against all common sense try to win you by pointing that this was 300 yrs or 30 yrs after the death of prophet mohommed.If i 'm to follow a hadith there are couple of them,that to me means there are controversies & difference of opinion ^& if that is the case then differences of opinion can exist among muslim ummah without fight.I don't see any reason to fight over frivilous matters,when you look at the birds eye view.To non muslims we are all muslims .in fact we are even lumped with judeo christian islamic faith or Abrahmic,b/c all three religion started with Ibrahim(rat).Bohra khoja,memon ,punjabi ,shia,ismaili ,aga khan,bengali,are just prefixes as italian american or Irish american ,b/c most important part is that all are in the FAMILY OF ISLAM.We pray 5 times,we read koran,we do haj,ramadan,zakat,salat,...

There are far more commonality among muslims even if they are one or other , the pre fixes are NOT IMPORTANT.I don't have problem calling them selves punjabi muslim ,if they choose ,after we all have our regional flair .Indian muslims are muslims but not exactly like saudi muslim ,we know but pre fixes just ENRICHESES our faith & is an envy of hindu,christian jews .In america in all colleges i see active effort being made to recruit students from all continents.All colleges wre trying to diversify from all white anglo saxon wasp -jewish only population to multi cultural from all over the world like an eid gathering in big cities of Chicago ,toranto ,NYC.
Sorry HK i myself became verbose ,but hope you understand my position now.


Glad to know u understand my point of view.
Now, back to the subject of hadith rejectors....i want to know what you guys think about that.