A "face-saving" thread

Join me in the quest of our very darling “face-saving” thread. What this thread will entail, you might be asking yourself. The curtains are now being removed.

Meh, where to begin. Just where on earth to begin. So many names to talk about, so many people to hang, such a mass hysteria. Less people actually, but mistakes that shadow a life sentence. Right on. We managed to win the test match by drawing. What did we draw? Was there anything worth drawing? Whose face did we save? All who are ready to put the garlands on Younis Khan, whose face did he actually save? The nation that rooted for him to step up to the plate and begged to display a barrel of a fight, or did he go on to silently save and add another number to his average against India? A food for thought. I simply do not understand the comedics of diving straight into your shell after what, ninth over? Very much agree on the fact that it was not a “start-your-gear-for-a-full-dive” target, but Good Lord, it was as if the likes of Munaf and Sachin had become a combination of McGrath and Warne, all in the same breath and sentence. I really don’t follow the logic behind what happened on Day 5. Salman Butt have been playing very decently since the start of this tour, heck, since his vice-captaincy post was given to the man who supposedly “saved the face”. He has been amongst the runs ever since, and is proved to be a good find at the top of the order, but Good God? Reading Harbhajan well is one thing, going completely into your private shell with a “Do Not Disturb” sign posted outside, not even nudging the ball around when it is asking to do so is just distasteful. Order from the top management, but who is sitting at the top? Younis Khan the captain? Shoaib Malik ‘assisting’ from outside? The “seniors”? Geoff Lawson? Regardless, the captain takes as much of the blame as anybody. Younis Khan should have pursued the target, albeit with caution, but it never entered into the picture. The word hardly ever dropped by in this equation. It escapes pure logic and thinking as to why would you not put an effort in and at least make it look like you are going for it, rather than sitting around and waiting for miracles to happen? Again, what and whose face did we save? One down in the series, it was a great opportunity to go head-to-head or better yet, go down but do it with a fight, with bravery. From to position, at the end of the day, it was a gettable target and we played it safe until cows came home. Might as well have called the fat lady and told her to sing when Yasir Hameed departed.

Kamran Akmal - where does he stand in the mix of things? One century is all it took for him to stamp his name in the team for Lord knows how many centuries. Just why is it always an oven-burning issue when the talk spreads about having a new wicket-keeper in the team? What’s the harm, and where is it? Such a defensive mindset, it is nothing but a pity. You don’t even consider the talent that is growing within our and your own roots. Where to look? The blame shouldn’t ever lie on PCB’s doorstep. It has just won a “Top ten best companies to work for” award. Another ‘face-saving’ moment.

The ups and downs have always happened, and will continue to, but it would be an icing on the cake (of your choosing) if this mentality is removed from Pakistan cricket. There is no reason to keep it, and all the more reasons to have it surgically removed. Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, Pakistan lost without even putting up an inch of a fight. That, as Anil Kumble put it post-match, leaves us bare empty in the column of moral victory. We need to first establish the definition of what this phrase means and represents. Had Pakistan gone for the target from the start, which it looked like for a very brief while until the ‘word’ spread, and had we kept the scorecard in check going in at almost 3-4 runs an over; if such was the case and we had lost too many wickets at the end that only the possibility of a draw looked worth salvaging, that there, acutely defines moral victory. Pakistan not only lost a great opportunity in it’s hands and the test match itself but also gladly accepted the moral defeat, as if it had been waiting for it to arrive. It did. It hardly disappoints us.

Would love to read your thoughts, your own points of concern, room for improvement in all areas (this thread included).

Re: A "face-saving" thread

i ll join ... so whats the membership fee.

Re: A "face-saving" thread

haaaaain Itnee Lambi post aur sami kaa zikaaar heee nahin????????

Dhobi bhai, aaapkee Tabeyaaat Sahi tou hey?

Re: A "face-saving" thread

exactly my thoughts DB. i've said it b4 many times that wht is this FACE SAVING stuff? i seriously felt that its was a chase-able target. yeah pitch was tricky but other than there was no threat to worry about. only batsman who played aggressively was hamid and was caught n bowled while playing his shots. other than that no one else really tried to put the indians under any pressure to make them rethink their strategy, whatever it was. i fully agree with kumble that there is no moral victory for pak. bcos they simply never tried to even remotely think of winning the test. kumble will be thanking his luck that they are going into 3rd test with a 1-0 lead thus all the pressure will be on pak to win n level the series.

i remember when pakistan won the 5th ODI it too was labelled as a FACE SAVING win and a morale booster. surely that morale didn't follow the team into the first test. seems like this team just doesn't know how to win or don't have the confidence to take risks for a win. there are lots of individuals in the team with talent but as a team they lack aggression, determination, planning and above all confidence.

waise for once, i would like to see team pak play a FACE SAVING INNINGS against teams like Australia / South Africa. :p

Re: A "face-saving" thread

Are you related to some1. Both of you are so bitter these days. :) :p
Draw is a draw. Pakistan didn't do something that no team has ever done before. So accept it and move on.

Re: A "face-saving" thread

But still;

PAK 66-43 India in 113 ODIs
PAK 12-9 India in 58 TESTS :p

Re: A "face-saving" thread

would be interesting to see the records in last few years

Re: A "face-saving" thread

History aside, when India declared on the 5th day giving Pak a target of 340 odd in 80 overs (avg of 4 per over), it was doable. Any other team (sans Australia or Sri Lanka), any other time, they probably would have gone for it. The problem was (and is) that Pakistan has a big mental block against Kumble, especially when the pitch has degraded on the 5th day. This was the fear factor that didn't allow them to go full force.

Even then, I think sending Akmal as an opener was part of a strategy to see if we can win it. The only way Pakistan could have a made chase out of it was if we had a fantastic opening stand. But when Hameed and Akmal perished quickly, all hopes of actually winning went with them. Butt was just the second fiddle. Sending Misbah up the order was again a horses-for-courses strategy. The guy had scored in 1st innings - probability of him scoring again in 2nd innings was pretty good. Didn't work out quite like that. He fell cheaply. Final fall back was Younis and Yousaf just playing out the time. There was no one after them except Faisal pappu Iqbal. You can't expect to save a test through Faisal Iqbal and Sami. So the chase fizzled completely.

This is the beauty of test cricket. Your strategies keep on changing as the situation of the innings/match unfold. You may start with one strategy at the beginning of the innings, but in the end, you are left with a completely different one. I am sure everyone in Pak team would have loved to go to Bangalore with the series tied 1-1, but the innings didn't unfold like that. At least we didn't go 0-2. We live for another fight in Bangalore.

Re: A “face-saving” thread

It’s pretty even steven. I was only jullaing Saeen!

In 14 TESTS since 1999 PAK 5-5 India (interesting point worth noting here is that only 11 of the previous 44 tests between the two sides yielded results!!)

In 28 ODIs since ASIA Cup 2000 (PAK beat SLA in the Final) it’s remarkably again PAK 14-14 India

1999 reference point because PAK and India resumed their test rivalry after a gap of 12 years

Re: A "face-saving" thread

Okay dhobi bhai relax.Would u have accepted younis Khan getting out the way he did in the first innings ,thus inducing a massive collapse ? .considering Pakistan's tail contribution was almost nill save Sami .Would u be happy with the 2-0 result ?
Can't blame younis and yousuf ,they chose the safe path .Rightly so .

Re: A "face-saving" thread

^ Exactly. Despite what some people are saying here 340 was never on. To be honest I can't remember even Australia chasing 340 odd on the final day to win a test match. That just never happens in test cricket. Yes sides have successfully chased 400 odd in the past but that's over nearly 2 days

Re: A "face-saving" thread

When was the last time Pakistan went for a kill (scoring 4 RPO on last day)? Any hints ideas?

On a pitch, when a team goes 150-5 in 1st inning against a score of 616 and barely manages to avoid follow on, do you seriously expect them to score 340+ on an Indian (spin/roughed-up) pitch on day 5 with 4 RPO? I mean, are you really serious?

We are talking about a team whose openers are Salman Butt, Yasir Hameed/Kamran Akmal? whose middle order has mega player Faisal Iqbal? whose tailenders can't bat for their life (Kaneria, Tanvir, Shoaib Akhtar (hint: sick))....

England was set target of 350 (in latest match against Sri Lanka) with few overs on day 4 and whole day 5... they are ranked #2 currently, got all out on 261.... Pakistan is ranked #5

Re: A "face-saving" thread

^ I agree with you generally, but I wouldn't focus on rankings a lot. In my view all teams from #2 to #6 are pretty even and a game between them can go either way very easily.

Re: A "face-saving" thread

eventhough I still find this discussion very hilarious that why Pakistan didn't go for the target and why settled for a draw. With all due respect, I guess you all are watching too much for Twenty20 cricket, baqoll Zee sports anchor Zamana hay Fatafat Cricket ka.

What is wrong with you guys?? You guys are talking as if Pakistan had to chase 140 runs of 80 overs and not 340 runs. There is a reason, why chasing a target of 300+ is considered highly difficult, regardless of number of overs left. Teams get beaten chasing such targets even when they have countless overs. Pakistan only had 80 overs and you guys were expecting them to score at 4+ runs/over. With alreasdy 1 down in the series, thi actof harakari would have ensured a series defeat and who knows a series white wash. A "face saving defeat is much better that an act of stupidity.

Lets look at this table below and notice how many times teams have successfully chased a target of 300-350 runs in the final innings. Give particular attention to the run rate and match result column.



 Team Score Overs RR  Result Opposition Ground Match Date Scorecard 
England 654/5 218.2x8 2.24  draw v South Africa Durban 3 Mar 1939 Test # 271 
New Zealand 451 93.3 4.82  lost v England Christchurch 13 Mar 2002 Test # 1594 
India 445 141.4x8 2.35  lost v Australia Adelaide 28 Jan 1978 Test # 816 
New Zealand 440 188.1 2.33  lost v England Nottingham 7 Jun 1973 Test # 722 
India 429/8 150.5 2.84  draw v England The Oval 30 Aug 1979 Test # 854 
South Africa 423/7 141.0 3.00  draw v England The Oval 16 Aug 1947 Test # 289 
West Indies 418/7 128.5 3.24  won v Australia St John's 9 May 2003 Test # 1645 
England 417 112.4x8 2.78  lost v Australia Melbourne 12 Mar 1977 Test # 800 
England 411 96.7x8 3.18  lost v Australia Sydney 19 Dec 1924 Test # 158 
Sri Lanka 410 104.3 3.92  lost v Australia Hobart 16 Nov 2007 Test # 1847 
West Indies 408/5 164.3 2.48  draw v England Kingston 3 Apr 1930 Test # 193 
India 406/4 147.0 2.76  won v West Indies Port of Spain 7 Apr 1976 Test # 775 
Australia 404/3 114.1 3.53  won v England Leeds 22 Jul 1948 Test # 302 
Australia 402 135.5 2.95  lost v England Manchester 13 Aug 1981 Test # 907 
India 397 109.4 3.62  lost v England Lord's 25 Jul 2002 Test # 1610 
West Indies 394 132.5 2.96  lost v England Manchester 7 Jun 2007 Test # 1835 
Australia 381/7 110.0 3.46  draw v New Zealand Perth 30 Nov 2001 Test # 1573 
India 376 145.1 2.59  lost v England Manchester 23 Jul 1959 Test # 477 
Australia 371/9 108.0 3.43  draw v England Manchester 11 Aug 2005 Test # 1760 
England 370 100.1 3.69  lost v Australia Brisbane 23 Nov 2006 Test # 1817 
England 370 106.2 3.47  lost v Australia Adelaide 14 Jan 1921 Test # 137 
England 369/6 110.0 3.35  draw v India The Oval 9 Aug 2007 Test # 1842 
Australia 369/6 113.5 3.24  won v Pakistan Hobart 18 Nov 1999 Test # 1469 
India 364/6 131.0 2.77  draw v Pakistan Delhi 4 Dec 1979 Test # 863 
England 363 111.2x8 2.44  lost v Australia Adelaide 16 Jan 1925 Test # 160 
Australia 362/7 101.0 3.58  won v West Indies Georgetown 31 Mar 1978 Test # 822 
Australia 357/6 94.0 3.79  draw v India Sydney 2 Jan 2004 Test # 1680 
India 355/8 107.0 3.31  draw v West Indies Mumbai (BS) 4 Feb 1949 Test # 311 
India 355 109.6x8 2.42  lost v Australia Brisbane 19 Jan 1968 Test # 626 
West Indies 354/5 100.0 3.54  draw v South Africa Cape Town 2 Jan 2004 Test # 1681 
West Indies 352 64.2x8 4.10  lost v Australia Sydney 14 Feb 1969 Test # 646 
Sri Lanka 352/9 113.3 3.10  won v South Africa Colombo (PSS) 4 Aug 2006 Test # 1812 
England 351/5 165.0 2.12  draw v South Africa Johannesburg 30 Nov 1995 Test # 1315 
England 350 122.2 2.86  lost v Australia Perth 14 Dec 2006 Test # 1821 
West Indies 348/5 69.0x8 3.78  won v New Zealand Auckland 27 Feb 1969 Test # 648 
Sri Lanka 348 141.4 2.45  lost v Australia Hobart 16 Dec 1989 Test # 1133 
India 347 86.5 3.99  tied v Australia Chennai 18 Sep 1986 Test # 1052 
New Zealand 345 129.0 2.67  lost v England Nottingham 25 Aug 1983 Test # 960 
West Indies 344/1 66.1 5.19  won v England Lord's 28 Jun 1984 Test # 990 
Australia 344/7 121.4 2.82  draw v England Sydney 1 Jan 1995 Test # 1281 
Sri Lanka 344/6 125.0 2.75  draw v New Zealand Hamilton 22 Feb 1991 Test # 1164 
India 343/6 90.0 3.81  draw v England Manchester 9 Aug 1990 Test # 1149 
Australia 342/8 87.2x8 2.93  won v India Perth 16 Dec 1977 Test # 811 
Pakistan 341/9 129.0 2.64  draw v West Indies Port of Spain 14 Apr 1988 Test # 1096 
South Africa 340/5 104.5 3.24  won v Australia Durban 15 Mar 2002 Test # 1595 
Australia 339 83.4 4.05  lost v South Africa Adelaide 7 Jan 1911 Test # 113 
Australia 339/9 84.0x8 3.02  draw v West Indies Adelaide 24 Jan 1969 Test # 645 
Pakistan 337/4 121.0 2.78  draw v Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC) 26 Mar 2006 Test # 1794 
Pakistan 336 137.5 2.43  lost v Australia Melbourne 12 Jan 1990 Test # 1134 
Australia 336 151.5 2.21  lost v England Adelaide 1 Feb 1929 Test # 179 
Australia 336/5 123.6x8 2.03  won v South Africa Durban 20 Jan 1950 Test # 320 
England 335/5 96.0 3.48  draw v Australia Adelaide 25 Jan 1991 Test # 1161 
Australia 335 139.2 2.40  lost v England Nottingham 13 Jun 1930 Test # 194 
South Africa 335 142.2 2.35  lost v New Zealand Cape Town 1 Jan 1962 Test # 519 
Australia 334/6 79.1 4.21  won v South Africa Cape Town 8 Mar 2002 Test # 1593 
India 333 100.1 3.32  lost v Australia Adelaide 25 Jan 1992 Test # 1184 
Australia 333 136.1 2.44  lost v England Melbourne 29 Dec 1894 Test # 43 
England 332 120.2 2.75  lost v Australia Manchester 3 Jun 1993 Test # 1223 
England 332/7 159.5 2.07  won v Australia Melbourne 29 Dec 1928 Test # 178 
Australia 329/3 109.0 3.01  draw v England Lord's 31 Jul 1975 Test # 761 
Australia 328/3 115.0x8 2.13  draw v England Adelaide 29 Jan 1971 Test # 678 
England 327 158.5 2.05  lost v West Indies Georgetown 21 Feb 1930 Test # 192 
West Indies 326 54.5x8 4.47  lost v Australia Melbourne 31 Jan 1976 Test # 770 
Sri Lanka 326/5 113.5 2.86  won v Zimbabwe Colombo (SSC) 14 Jan 1998 Test # 1395 
South Africa 326/5 117.0x8 2.08  draw v Australia Sydney 10 Jan 1964 Test # 550 
India 325/3 136.0 2.38  draw v West Indies Kolkata 31 Dec 1948 Test # 308 
Sri Lanka 324 73.1 4.42  lost v Australia Kandy 16 Mar 2004 Test # 1688 
New Zealand 324/5 107.0 3.02  won v Pakistan Christchurch 24 Feb 1994 Test # 1251 
India 324 84.7x8 2.86  lost v Australia Brisbane 2 Dec 1977 Test # 809 
England 323 78.6x8 3.07  lost v Australia Melbourne 1 Jan 1937 Test # 257 
England 323 137.2 2.35  lost v Australia Brisbane 25 Nov 1994 Test # 1275 
West Indies 317/2 93.1 3.40  won v Pakistan Georgetown 13 Mar 1958 Test # 452 
Pakistan 316/4 107.0 2.95  draw v South Africa Lahore 8 Oct 2007 Test # 1844 
England 316 129.3 2.44  lost v West Indies Kingston 15 Jan 1954 Test # 380 
England 315/4 73.2 4.29  won v Australia Leeds 16 Aug 2001 Test # 1556 
Pakistan 315/9 106.1 2.96  won v Australia Karachi 28 Sep 1994 Test # 1268 
Australia 315/6 134.0 2.35  won v England Adelaide 17 Jan 1902 Test # 67 
England 314/7 96.0 3.27  draw v Australia Sydney 2 Jan 1983 Test # 944 
England 313 139.4 2.24  lost v West Indies Bridgetown 6 Feb 1954 Test # 383 
West Indies 311/9 120.1 2.58  won v Australia Bridgetown 26 Mar 1999 Test # 1453 
Zimbabwe 310 81.3 3.80  lost v Pakistan Harare 9 Nov 2002 Test # 1625 
Australia 310 92.4x8 2.51  lost v Pakistan Melbourne 10 Mar 1979 Test # 849 
England 310/7 100.0x8 2.32  draw v Australia Melbourne 1 Jan 1947 Test # 281 
England 308/4 104.2 2.95  draw v South Africa The Oval 26 Aug 1965 Test # 596 
England 307 86.5 3.53  lost v West Indies Lord's 16 Jun 1988 Test # 1099 
Sri Lanka 307/7 102.0 3.00  draw v India Kandy 14 Sep 1985 Test # 1025 
Australia 307/7 107.0 2.86  won v Bangladesh Fatullah 9 Apr 2006 Test # 1797 
England 307/6 146.4 2.09  won v New Zealand Christchurch 14 Feb 1997 Test # 1355 
Sri Lanka 306 95.3 3.20  lost v South Africa Cape Town 19 Mar 1998 Test # 1410 
South Africa 304 109.4 2.77  lost v England Johannesburg 1 Jan 1914 Test # 132 
England 304 123.4 2.45  lost v South Africa Cape Town 2 Jan 2005 Test # 1732 
New Zealand 304/8 128.0 2.37  draw v Zimbabwe Harare 18 Sep 1997 Test # 1378 
India 303/3 96.0 3.15  draw v Pakistan Karachi 15 Nov 1989 Test # 1127 
Pakistan 301 77.2 3.89  lost v West Indies Kingston 15 Apr 1977 Test # 803 







Re: A "face-saving" thread

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Re: A "face-saving" thread

khan sahib... the table in your post is a bit difficult to read, but I think ppl will generally give you the point that chasing 340+ on the 5th day with 80 overs left is very difficult (almost impossible). I think part of the frustration is that why did Pak even let the match get to this stage. Obvious answer is that when India scored 600+ in the first innings, our chances of winning the game were practically over. The big reason India posted such a high total was our luck-luster bowling.

What do you think, if India had decided to rub our noses in it and said "screw the result, we'll just show how bad the bowling is" and had not declared the FIRST innings and kept batting. It may very well have been the first test when a team batted all five days and scored 1000+ runs :D I am not saying it will happen, just that our bowling was so poor.

Problem is, if our bowling woes are not fixed, third test could prove to be equally depressing, where Pakistan will just be playing catch-up and face-saving.

Re: A “face-saving” thread

aray faisal bhai, working in office and not getting time to fix this table.
check this page to see what iI am talking about

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/content/records/222199.html

Re: A "face-saving" thread

What a hilarious thread. If Pakistan had gone for the target they would have most likely lost the match. We would than have had threads here complaining as to why our team did not go for safety play and keep the option of drawing the series alive. I suppose you can't please everyone.

They did the right thing by choosing to draw the match. 380 was not possible.

Re: A "face-saving" thread

Tell me, oh geniuses (Yes, I'm pointing fingers at Saeein and Faisal), when was the last time 340 was chased in the 4th innings, let alone within the last day of a test match? Some of you guys are hilarious, as ehsan said.

Re: A "face-saving" thread

Agree with ehsan and fkhan2. Chasing was never on the cards. We have to come up with a way to take 20 wickets. Usually this wasn't a problem but the bowling resources available in this series are appalling. The likes of Rao and Rehman aren't likely to improve that either.