'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

How effed up is this?**

‘A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi… You know, so what?’ **

                  Interviews with US veterans show for the first time the pattern of brutality in Iraq       

By Leonard Doyle in Washington
Published: 12 July 2007

                       It is an axiom of American political life that the actions of the US military are beyond criticism. Democrats and Republicans praise the men and women in uniform at every turn. Apart from the odd bad apple at Abu Ghraib, the US military in Iraq is deemed to be doing a heroic job under trying circumstances. 

That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.

The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. “It’s not individual atrocity,” Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. “It’s the fact that the entire war is an atrocity.”

A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.

This view is echoed in Washington, where increasing numbers of Democrats and Republicans are openly calling for an early withdrawal from Iraq. And the Iraq quagmire has pushed President George Bush’s poll ratings to an all-time low.

Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation’s investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.

Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behaviour born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

“It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around,” said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

“Every good cop carries a throwaway,” Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.

There were also deaths caused by the reckless behaviour of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. “Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean… your order is that you never stop.”

The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.

Sgt John Bruhns, 29, of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, described a typical raid. “You want to catch them off guard,” he explained. "You want to catch them in their sleep … You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall… Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds. You’ll ask ‘Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda?’

“Normally they’ll say no, because that’s normally the truth,” Sgt Bruhns said. “So you’ll take his sofa cushions and dump them. You’ll open up his closet and you’ll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it.” And at the end, if the soldiers don’t find anything, they depart with a “Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening”.

Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. “The mentality of my squad leader was like, ‘Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don’t have to kill them back in Colorado’,” she said. “He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist.”

‘It would always happen. We always got the wrong house…’

“People would make jokes about it, even before we’d go into a raid, like, ‘Oh ****, we’re gonna get the wrong house’. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house.”
Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003

“I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn’t really know what else to do.”
*
Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005*

“We were approaching this one house… and we’re approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it’s doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it… So I see this dog - I’m a huge animal lover… this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he’s running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I’m at a loss for words.”
*
Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004*

“I’ll tell you the point where I really turned… [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg… An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me… like asking me why. You know, ‘Why do I have a bullet in my leg?’… I was just like, ‘This is, this is it. This is ridiculous’.”
*
Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003*

“I open a bag and I’m trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, ‘Get that **** haji out of here,’… our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, ‘You know, he looks fine, he’s gonna be all right,’ and walks back… kind of like, ‘Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic’. So I’m standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy.”
*
Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004*

‘Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find…’

“Here’s some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he’s going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you’ve ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds…”
*
Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004*

“Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat.”
*
Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003*

“I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, ‘A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi… You know, so what?’… [Only when we got home] in… meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then.”
*
Specialist Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry. In Baquba for a year beginning February 2004*

“[The photo] was very graphic… They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got a spoon. He’s reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and smiling.”
*
Specialist Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, 320th Military Police Company. Deployed to Talil air base for one year beginning April 2003*

"The car was approaching what was in my opinion a very poorly marked checkpoint… and probably didn’t even see the soldiers… The guys got spooked and decided it was a possible threat, so they shot up the car. And they [the bodies] literally sat in the car for the next three days while we drove by them.
*
Sergeant Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. One-year from February 2004*

“The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population…”

Sergeant Camilo Mejía, 31, from Miami, National Guardsman, 1-124 Infantry Battalion, 53rd Infantry Brigade. Six-month tour beginning April 2003
“I just remember thinking, ‘I just brought terror to someone under the American flag’.”

Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004
“A lot of guys really supported that whole concept that if they don’t speak English and they have darker skin, they’re not as human as us, so we can do what we want.”

Specialist Josh Middleton, 23, of New York City, 2nd Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division. Four-month tour in Baghdad and Mosul beginning December 2004

“I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned.”

Sergeant Ben Flanders, 28, National Guardsman from Concord, New Hampshire, 172nd Mountain Infantry. In Balad for 11 months beginning March 2004

***The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness, by Chris Hedges and Laila al-Arian, appears in the 30 July issue of The Nation

****http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2758829.ece
*
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Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

some pretty sickening quotes there.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

War is nasty, especially urban. Anytime a U.S. soldier hurts an innocent Iraqi he's a disgrace to his country and is hurting America and it's interests directly. The mass majority of military members don't behave in such fashion but unfortunately an urban war environment makes such atrocities more likely.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

No Army in the world which is caught in a never ending war can provide "soft and "motherly care" to those people who are fiercely hostile to it.

Small time quotes of soldiers who are frustrated and exhausted are finding so much attention.

Wonder what those suicide bombers and their preparators use to "quote", when they blow up 100's of people in one attempt.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

[quote]
No Army in the world which is caught in a never ending war can provide "soft and "motherly care" to those people who are fiercely hostile to it.

[/quote]

mothercare..? wouldnt expect that from a soldier... but if these soldiers are trying to win the hearts and minds of an iraqi, well..they have a real sadistic way of going about it.

no surprises then if the hostility increases 10 folds from all quarters. and we'd all know why wouldnt we.

[quote]
Wonder what those suicide bombers and their preparators use to "quote", when they blow up 100's of people in one attempt.
[/quote]

Not sure how thats even relevent, cuz one crime doesnt justify another. but what i do know is that I wouldnt attempt to excuse thier suicide bombings as 'frustrated' and 'exhausted' folks. Funny though, that you compare the two; those bombers, these soldiers, they're pretty much level pegging when it comes to morality eh.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

Life in Iraq is hell. These quotes are horrible. However, selective quotes are just that. Yes, being woke up at the middle of the night and get one's house trashed is horrible but worse is being blown to peices by suicide bomber or being shot in the head alongwith whole family by people shouting Allah Akbar. There are more people killed and violence unleashed in Iraq by Sunnis and Shias against each other.

War is hell and full of atrocities. People iching and wanting war and Jehad against infidels better know what they are asking to bring on their countrymen. They will bring misery and horrors to themselves and every one else around them.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

How do you know that? Did you forget how many civilains died after 1991 war? It is amusing to see these hinuds to come here to praise the killing of mulsims and reduce it to just "selective quotes".

This problem of Shia Vs Sunni killing did not exits before we went there? Did it? Go ahead tell us how it was there, only, hidden by Saddam's brutal regime.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

Nice presumption of my religion. Shows your bigotry. You can see praise of killing in my post? I guess you are simply blinded by hate.
Coming back to the topic, the problem of Shia vs Sunni was suppressed by Saddam's regime which was dominated by Sunnis and brutally oppressed Shias. Now the major fight is between the Sunni and Shia groups. Daily there are reports of hundreds of people being killed in attacks of Sunnis and Shias against each other. The number of people killed by Americans now is not even close.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

^ Of course the numbers is not close. If you stay on this board long enough you will see enough of your ilk who come here to stir trouble and nothing else.
Coming back to the issue at hand... How many people do you think were killed due to the destruction of water and sewage lines of Baghdad after 1991? Go and read the number and come back and tell me if the numbers are close or not. Also, try to answer the question ...Was there killing such as this before we invaded a soverign nation?

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

Enlighten me. How many civilians were killed in destruction of water lines in Baghdad eighteen year ago by Americans? Also tell me how this negates the fact today Sunnis and Shias are killing each other in great numbers? Such killing was not there in Saddam's time because these religious groups were oppressed by Saddam.

I agree that Americans have bombed and killed a large number of people. What else do you expect in a war and occupation? The groups killing each other call themselves muslim but have shown themselves to be even worse killers.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

If you feel that people disagreeing with you are coming here to stir trouble then you have perception problem.

Before the soverign nation was invaded we do have information of people being killed by chemical bombs etc.
Iraq was a nation which had its own problems. What prompted the country to go and occupy a much smaller country and unleash terror.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

funny point to make. you mean you'd rather be rolled over by a tank then be blown to smitheren? shouting Allah Akber makes death all the more painful does it? well...whatever rocks your boat deegeh but how you try to justify one murder by another is not a clever way of deflection. try again mate.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

Terrorists.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

its amazing people say "war is hell" and "war is ugly" when soldiers admit to targetting non combatants/brutality towards civilians/general population but would never dream of saying the same thing when one of their own is attacked.

could "war is ugly" have been the answer after 9/11 or 7/7?

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

Nobody can excuse the atrocities of the American soldiers. However, atrocities comiited by foriegn soldiers from another continent, different culture and religion do not excuse atrocities of people of same religion and culture. This logic, that murders commited by American excuses the Sunnis and Shias killing each other, is wrong.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

excuse me, but the only one excusing any atrocities around here is yourself and matrubhoomi. Refer back to your intial post, where you were the first one two bring the sunni/shia in to the argument as a means of deflection and justification, when it wasnt even relevent.

[quote]
This logic, that murders commited by American excuses the Sunnis and Shias killing each other, is wrong.
[/quote]
yes but i dont see anyone subscribing to that form of logic but yourself.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

No one here is excusing such behavior ravage, those that have been accused of violating the law (targetting non combatants/brutality towards civilians/general population) need to be investigated and charges pressed if they are indeed found to have violated the law.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

as Ma Mooli says, please explain who brought in Shias and Sunnies killing each other into the discussion

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

Im glad you feel nobody is. "War is hell" or "Do you expect them to treat them with motherly care" or "War is ugly" is usually a way of minimizing the blame.

Re: 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

^ "Might is Right!".

It is truly a war of civilizations than demoratsy by any chance. All the anglo saxons stick together which is why you see more canadian / british troops in action with americans in afghanistan than lets say french or even german . You have to understand the mentality that these neocons come from. You have taliban / AQ that make havoc but you put a bunch of self-do gooder bible cheese pumpers in charge of the most powerful nation right now and YOU HAVE A SERIOUS THREAT TO WORLD PEACE! You can understand their thinking by looking at the think tanks that they are part of like almost all the high level US govt officials like cheney, former rumsfeld, wolfowitz, pearl etc. were part of PNAC [Project for the New American Century].