A CHALLENGE TO YOU READERS

[ahmadjee]

[quote]
*...and indeed Islam is a unique system different to that of the west whos very basis say" rule of the people" where as Isalm says "Innil hukmo Illah lillah" "the rule is for Allah" [surah yousaf:40] *
[/quote]

Ok, let me give the whole big picture of the ayat you have quoted!

[quote]
12: 33. Thereupon Joseph prayed: `O my Lord, prison is dearer to me than what they invite me to do; and unless thou turn away their guile from me I shall be inclined towards them and be of the ignorant.'

12: 34. So his Lord heard his prayer, and turned away their guile from him. Verily, He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

12: 35. Then it occurred to them (the chiefs) after they had seen the Signs of his innocence that to preserve their good name, they should imprison him for a time.

12: 36. And with him there entered the prison two young men. One of them said, I see myself in a dream pressing wine.' And the other said,I see myself in a dream carrying upon my head bread of which the birds are eating. Inform us of the interpretation thereof; for we see thee to be of the righteous.'

12: 37. He replied, `The food which you are given shall not come to you but I shall inform you of the interpretation thereof before it comes to you. This is on account of what my Lord has taught me. I have renounced the religion of the people who do not believe in ALLAH and who are disbelievers in the Hereafter;

12: 38. `And I have followed the religion of my fathers - Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. It behoves us not to associate anything as partner with ALLAH. This is of ALLAH's grace upon us and upon mankind, but most men are ungrateful;

12: 39. `O my two companions of the prison, are many lords differing among themselves better or ALLAH, the One, the Most Supreme ?

*12: 40. You worship nothing besides ALLAH, but mere names that you have named, you and your fathers; ALLAH has sent down no authority for that. The decision rest with ALLAH alone. HE has commanded that you shall not worship anything, save HIM. That is the right religion, but most men know not; *

12: 41. `O my two companions of the prison, as for one of you he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. The matter about which you inquired has been decreed.'
[/quote]

I don't even know how you came up with "the rule is for Allah"

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited October 31, 2001).]

[Khilafah1422]

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**Khalifa,

(1)The forms of freedom that the west provides (or the Islam teaches) is the same freedom that Allah has bestowed upon each & every soul that he created & will create in the future!

(2)Though if he do something which is aganist the law of the land, then indeed be persecuted according to the law in a just manner.

(3) AnHazoor (saw) never applied the Shariah towards the Non-Muslims. Nor it was considered 'the only' law of the land in his times. He gave freedom to the Jews/Christians/Pagans to worship who they wanted and how ever they deemed necessary!

(4)And yes, you have the right to preach & practice your thoughts & ideas on Islam ... because you were given that right by Allah!**
[/quote]

Assala alaikum.
I would like to address the 4 points you mentioned.
(1) If you look at my previous post, one can clearly see that the idea of freedom leads one to disobey Allah(swt). Also the belief of the west is of Capitalism. Thier belief says that God's role is only in the church (in our case the mosque), outside the mosque, we the people decide how a society should function and so they reject that Allah is Al-Hahim (the soverign/ruler). One of the 99 names of Allah is Al-Hakim and one would be in great sin if he rejected this name. So the very foundations of the western belief contradict the islamic belief. The freedoms emanate from thier belief and hence all are considered the batil(evil). Allah (swt) asks the muslims to follow the Shariah in it's entirety and not to step over the limits and we should not call this freedom, as you cannot limit freedom.

(2) if the law of the land is not in agreement with the rules of islam, does that mean we still do it as it is 'the law of the land'. Does that mean that if and when the muslims are ordered by Allah to help the muslims of kashmir(i.e. finacially) but Musharraf says "no", do we obey him or Allah? The answer is crystall clear.

(3) You are, to an extent, correct when you say that the jews,christians and people of other religions were allowed to practice thier faith. But thier religion did not give rules regarding the functioning of a society hence any transactions and the penal code(punishment system) was referred to Islam and only Islam. An example was when Ali(ra) had a court case with a jew who had stolen his shield and the case was referred to Islam. Indeed Islam came to be applied for all people as Allah (swt) says "and we have sent you save as a conveyor of glad tidings and as a warner unto all mankind".[34:28]. The prophet would also punish the jews and christians when they dealt with Interest.

(4) Islam means submission to Allah. As muslims we believe everything Allah has told us and we do not oppose it. So we cannot say "hmmm, maybe homosexuality is good and ....maybe it should be allowed". This definelty is not allowed in Islam, but as part of the western system it is. but Islam has some definite points which people cannot have a difference of opinion on i.e. a muslim is obliged to live according to Islam, Riba is Haraam etc... but the branches of Islam are open to interpretation and that is why you have many scholars with thier opnions(but none contradict the definite laws of Allah).

I hope Allah guides both of us. Ameen

[Khilafah1422]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rahat1:
**Mr Khalifa

(1)I posed you a question earlier on ( about how you would implement khalifa in practice etc). You gave a response and, judging from the response of others it seems you are a long way from your first goal , i.e convincing people intellectually.

(2)what I would like to mention is that I have heard (especially these days) many people make quotations to support their different points of view - often the same quotations. For example, in all the quotations you make, I don't come to the same conclusions as you do. Imagine all the hundreds of thousands of hours that have gone into the study of the Quran and Sunnah -and yet still we arrive at differing interpretations - some at complete odds (such as sunni/shia)

(3) It also tells me that we should make more use of the something which God has given us - our brain and common sense, i.e we should always ask ourselves 'what is the core message ?' , 'what is the intention ?'

(4)And it is here I believe where your interpretaion falters. You are heavily focussed on the 'outer' i.e systems, methods, rituals, and not the 'inner', i.e the intention, the spiritual, the core message - which leads to a belief that somehow an outer system (the Khalifa) will automatically make us all into fantastic muslims.

(5)You are also rather selective in your interpretaion - if we apply your concept consistently then we should all continue to ride on camels and live in tents. Why ?because that's excatly what our prophet (saw)did. Why don't we do that ? - because we know that the INTENTION was not to ride on camels but to get from A to B, or it wasn't to live in tents but that the INTENTION was shelter. Hence I feel you people have rather lost your way - your preoccupation with finite detail has meant you have lost sight of the big picture - and lost direction in a big way.

Assalama alaikum

Bismillah hirRahmaan nirRaheem

Brother i would like to point out a few things about your statements. Insha-Allah our niyyah as well as our action will be judged by Allah on the judgement day.

(1) brother we are only humans as you mentioned. If i havent convinced you then it is only my limitations as a human being. When we look to the best example, the Prophet of Allah (SAW), his message was also rejected by the people of Maccah and yet he was the most perfect, so please do not expect me to convince everybody. I ask you to look at what i present and make a decision on the strength of the argument.

(2) I would also like to point out that none of the verses i mentioned are my opinions as only a scholar who understands the arabic language is able to come to these interpretations. Also their are some verses of the Quran which one cannot have any difference on i.e. Interest is forbidden, Alcohol is haraam and the muslim has to live life according to Quran and sunnah. These are the definite things and this is what the call to establish the Islamic state is about. As no one would claim that it is o.k for us to live our lives according to man made laws<---this is going against the definite. The many interpretations are on the branches of Islam and not (or should not)be on the roots.

(3) As we agree, Islam is complete and comprehensive and does not need to be updated. We as muslims cannot just start making our own judgements for the problems or issues we face. For this is the reason why we see many youths camitting fornication, as they decide what is of benefit to them and Allah(swt) is no longer the law giver. So the mind is used to study realities in depth and then refer to Islam to seek it's view/judgement/law.

(4) The khilafah state will not produce perfect people as even in the time of the prophet people made mistakes. But it will make sure that the muslims are living thier life according to Islam and that they are progressing in all aspects of life i.e technology, as individuals, as a society, in education and etc... I agree when you say we need to have good intentions, but your intentions are a worship to Allah and so are your actions. So one cannot say "i will gamble but my intention is that if i win, i will help build a mosque and give it to charity". Because islam told us to be sincere in our intentions and out actions and so we cannot say we have good intentions but we wish not to promote islam as an ideology.

(5) I appologise if my posts indicated that i wish for the muslim ummah to start riding on camels and living in tents and use pigeons or hourses to deliver messages. It is not the case at all. Technology is universal and is not specific to any creed and so Islam allows us to use it and in some cases it becomes an obligation for the muslim ummah and the islamic state to progress in technology and possess the most awesome scientific research ( but to go into this is out of the scope of this post). But i will mention one evidense just to assure you. After the Prophet established an Islamic state he asked the sahabah to go to Persia (or mabe Rome) so that they can technologically become advanced as a state. So they would go and aquire sword making skills as these countries had strong metals. so Islam allows the muslims to aquire a house,car,mobile as these are all permissable. But things like mini-skirts which emanate from the concept of freedom, the muslims are not allowed to wear this in public, no matter what the intention is.

Insha-Allah i have clarrified some points.
Wa salaam

[Khilafah1422]

A reply would be good

[Khilafah1422]

What's wrong, too much info?

[Rahat1]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
**
[QUOTE]

**

"..I ask you to look at what i present and make a decision on the strength of the argument..." **

No problem with that - same should apply to you. Do you have an open mind ? Would you have a dialogue with anyone - i.e to listen, to understand different perspectives rather then preach your own ?

"..only a scholar who understands the arabic language is able to come to these interpretations...

yes ..and there are many, lots of differing interpretations (the branches). So much for scholars. And don't forget...scholars are human beings. I have heard this arguement many times (" e.g that to be a doctor you need years of learning etc etc..."). Sorry but I don't buy it. I don't see why faith has to be so complicated that only scholars can truly understand it. Like anything else..I'll listen to you and to other perspectives and in the end form my own judgement. I'll be judged on that by the Allmighty - unfortunately there are too many people on Earth who want to play judge

"..The many interpretations are on the branches of Islam and not (or should not)be on the roots..

Yes ..and you're one of the branches.

** ".. For this is the reason why we see many youths camitting fornication, as they decide what is of benefit to them and Allah(swt) is no longer the law giver. So the mind is used to study realities in depth and then refer to Islam to seek it's view/judgement/law." **

Yes Again !...that view / judgement can differ depending on the reader. This is called interpretation. And, as I said before, there are different forms of interpretation - i.e the literal or the spirit/intention (often called liberal - which I don't like as it implies 'change')All the examples you quote are black and white ones (e.g fornification) and no one argues whether or not they allowed !

** "..The khilafah state will not produce perfect people as even in the time of the prophet people made mistakes. But it will make sure that the muslims are living thier life according to Islam.." **

Really ? How will you know ? Will you regulate people's minds ? Will they all become pre-programmed robots ? Did you ever read the novel 1984 ?

** "..but your intentions are a worship to Allah and so are your actions..**

Agreed....and I would rather my actions focussed upon helping others, the needy, the poor, to educate and give something back to society, rather then imposing 'systems' on people if they don't want them

** "..so we cannot say we have good intentions but we wish not to promote islam as an ideology..."**

Nothing wrong with promotion - by all means do that - do it well and you will change hearts and minds. Do it badly and you will antagonise. Do it by force and whatever you create will only be temporary

*"..But things like mini-skirts which emanate from the concept of freedom, the muslims are not allowed to wear this in public, no matter what the intention is " *

Again a black and white example and not one I would disagree with.

My friend - I think we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. but before I go perhaps I can leave you with some thoughts:

1) I'm happy to accept that there are going to be many people in the world with differing perspectives and beliefs, some opposite to my own. I'm happy to accommodate this diversity, I find it interesting and I believe it makes my own faith stronger. I believe this is called tolerence, live and let live etc Why do you find it so difficult ?

2) Like it or not, people value their freedom. Freedom of thought, expression, of values, freedom of choice, of everything. If you suppress it, people will feel thay are being controlled and regulated, and will finally react negatively. If, by choice, they want to live by rules and regulation, they will be happy to do so

3) It is easier to create organisational systems and rules and tell people to abide by laws (or else), then it is to change hearts and minds. And, when it comes to faith - its about hearts and minds. Didn't I hear somewhere that "Islam..doesn't like compulsion.."

4) There's nothing wrong with you propmoting your view. However people, generally don't like being preached at. You'll never win friends that way, or change hearts and minds. Why don't you lead by example ? Perhaps you can find a little island somewhere which is free from man-made laws and there create your small Khalifa. Put it to the test. If it really works, people will flock to it, and you won't have to live under wretched Tony Blair's laws which you so detest.

5) Finally, I hear many people refer to 'kufrs' and 'non-believers' and pass judgement on them. On the day of judgement, do you know what is going to happen (who is destined for what)? What makes you so sure ? And if you are so sure, are you not playing God ? Do you think that is wise ? Think about this and maybe (just maybe) it may change the way you view others and the world around you...

Salaam

[Khilafah1422]

Assalama alaikum, i'm back,just to address you on some points.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rahat1:

yes ..and there are many, lots of differing interpretations (the branches). So much for scholars. And don't forget...scholars are human beings. I have heard this arguement many times (" e.g that to be a doctor you need years of learning etc etc..."). Sorry but I don't buy it. I don't see why faith has to be so complicated that only scholars can truly understand it.

It is well known and it is not disputed amonst people that from an english/or any other language translated Quran we are not allowed to make our own judgements. purely because the arabic of the Quran cannot be fully translated into english and hence people make many mistakes due to the poor translation of the Quran.It is not like a doctor(bad analogy) because the Prophet himself said "Whosoever interprets the Quran according to his opinion,even if he gets it right, he has indeed committed a sin"[Abu Dawood and Tirmidhi]

Yes ..and you're one of the branches.

Do you think the muslims have a chioce of whether or not they should live thier lives according to Islam. Do you think that there can be many interpretations and many branches on this issue. Obviously no. So it is not a branch.

** "..The khilafah state will not produce perfect people as even in the time of the prophet people made mistakes. But it will make sure that the muslims are living thier life according to Islam.." **
Your response:
*Really ? How will you know ? Will you regulate people's minds ? Will they all become pre-programmed robots ? *

no of course not, people will exercise thier own minds. In America or any other country, the system has a role which is to regulate society and to make sure that people do not over step the boundries it has set. The same will apply to the system of Islam. Ask the muslims do they prefer to live thier lives under a system which actually is benefitting the elite and opressing the poor, under a system which emanated from a limited mind and hence there are many contradictions in the system. No because the muslim recognises his/her objective in life.

Agreed....and I would rather my actions focussed upon helping others, the needy, the poor, to educate and give something back to society, rather then imposing 'systems' on people if they don't want them.

Nothing wrong with helping people. but you would want to help them in the best possible manner. The poor(like Africa), have much resources but the people live under the poverty line(even in Pakistan). Why is that?
How would the problem be solved in your opinion? Would you not say that the IMF and world bank need to be pointed at. These are all capitalistic multinationals. Hmmm.... interesting.

*Like it or not, people value their freedom. Freedom of thought, expression, of values, freedom of choice, of everything. If you suppress it, people will feel thay are being controlled and regulated. *

People do love thier freedom and people do love to follow thier desires and this is what needs to be liberated. Minds are no longer being used to regulate actions. We are told to follow our instincts and desires and hence we see the rapes in society as the sexual instinct is continously agitated. Where do we draw the lines between the animal kingdom and the human beings. It is hard to see as the animals also follow thier instincts. These instincts do need to be regulated. Just like when you might have a problem with your car you go to a someone who knows about the car and how it functions as he is a specialist in that field. Draw the analogy to humanity, Allah created it and hence he knows best how we should live and how our organic needs and our instincts should be regualted.

Didn't I hear somewhere that "Islam..doesn't like compulsion.."**

yes, they cannot be forced to become muslims but they are not asked whether they would like to live under Islam. But if we look at history many non muslims became muslims whilst they lived under the khilafah as they saw how just Islam was.

Salaam.

[Khilafah1422]

:)

[Khilafah1422]

.

[Braveheart]

[quote]
Originally posted by Khilafah1422:
** jazakallah khair KHAN SAHIB.
You mentioned what if there is no state. Before I mention anything else i think it is important to highlight the fact that islam does not have to be updated like windows 98, it is a complete and comprehensive system. I mentioned before, issues like cloning are new but the Quran and sunnah has a verdict on this, abortion which did not exist 1400 years ago, Islam has a say on this.
To comment on Khan sahib's point; when we talk about a state we are talking about a new system that will unite the separated ummah. For someone to bring a new system they must remove the old system Just like when there is an old building and you want to build a new building you must fist get rid of the old to establish the new. Simple point. To bring this Islamic state it will require hard work from the muslims that must work collectively as a political party to remove people like musharraf and the other puppet rulers in the Islamic world. So Allah will only give victory unless hard work is done just like the Prophet worked tirelessly with the sahaba to MAKE Islam dominate other man mane systems.**
[/quote]
This sounds to me like u want everybody to come out say yes,let`s make everybody in OUR own image,it will be better for them in the long run.

[ahmadjee]

Khalifa Sahib,

As I said before we all agree with you that there is a need for revival of the Muslims of today. Though the path you choose to follow have the following flaws:

1)You are wrong to assume that 'lack of unity' (or Khilafat) is the sole problem of the Muslim disintegration, morally & culturally. Or its the West that is responsible! The 'khilafat' was in the Muslim world until the early 1900s … though you would agree that after the Khulafa-e-Rashadeen none were able to carry on the true essence of Islam. Mainly because they were more concerned about their ‘political power’ rather than the duty of keeping the Muslims on a spiritual path. So, how can you argue that a khilafat of today will be any different while the Muslims are the same condition as 1300 hundred years ago, if not worse?

2)Your idea of taming the Muslim world by the power of ‘stick’ or ‘taking away their right of freedom’ is unIslamic. For the sole reason that our beloved prophet AnHazoor (saw) didn’t believe in such an approach. He was given the leadership of all of the Arabia but he refused! He could have taken that opportunity & by the power of his authority could have converted the whole Arabia to Islam! But he didn’t choose to do so. As he taught us that faith is through heart not through force! He tamed the worse of the Arabian buddos in every way of life ... with love & compassion! He gave them the right of free will, yet showed them with his own actions & practice the true path & its blessings! And with faith they all followed him & believed in him .. with all their hearts & souls.

So, if you want to revive the Muslim world, chose the path of Hazrat Muhammad Rosallah (saw)! Show the rest of the Muslims from your actions & way of life, that yours is the blessed one! So they choose (not force) to follow Islam! And once they are true Muslims, Khilafat is born to appear again!

Now, if you still want to argue on this, please argue from the point of AnHazoor (saw) Sunnah. Explain to me and others, if or when he chose to use ‘power’ to keep Muslims or others on the spiritual path!

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited November 06, 2001).]

[Khilafah1422]

*As I said before we all agree with you that there is a need for revival of the Muslims of today. Though the path you choose to follow have the following flaws:
Your idea of taming the Muslim world by the power of ‘stick’ or ‘taking away their right of freedom’ is unIslamic. For the sole reason that our beloved prophet AnHazoor (saw) didn’t believe in such an approach. He was given the leadership of all of the Arabia but he refused! He could have taken that opportunity & by the power of his authority could have converted the whole Arabia to Islam! But he didn’t choose to do so. As he taught us that faith is through heart not through force! *
The part where the Prophet was offered the leadership but was rejected because the Quraish were asking the Prophet to compromise i.e. they were asking him not to challenge their way of life and not to challenge their very belief. So they said you can rule for one year and we will worship your God and then we will rule and you will worship our gods. Can you see today we the muslims are facing a similar challenge. We are told that we should tolerate other people and their views whereas the Prophet challenged anything which contradicted Islam i.e. where people would cheat in the Market, bury their daughter alive (like abortion today).
The method I call for is the method of our Prophet. Obviously, before as Islamic state was established the Prophet convinced people of this message by challenging any non-islamic concept intellectually. By interacting with the society he(saw) and his sahaba generated a public opinion and this opinion was more stronger in Madina. This public opinion of wanting Islam exists in the muslim world where our work is geared towards. So it is not a stick approach as a recent survey in Pakistan showed that nearly all of the people in Pakistan wanted the Islamic law (and indeed the rest of the muslim world)

You are wrong to assume that 'lack of unity' (or Khilafat) is the sole problem of the Muslim disintegration, morally & culturally. Or its the West that is responsible!
If we look at the past, the muslims were united by an ideology(way of life). Just like in Britain people are united under a system which represents their values even though there are so many people that have so many different opinions i.e. Labour party, Conservative, BNP, Tories etc… Rationally speaking, people can be of different colours, different backgrounds, come from different countries, speak different languages but when all of them are united behind an ideology(Islam) then this is true unity. All the muslims might be facing the same Qibla whilst praying, they might perform Hajj around the same Qibla but they live their according to Capitalism(a non Islamic way of life) and this is when the muslims are disunited. Because when it comes to life’s affairs they face towards Washington D.C and so they are divided on what is thier reference point in life. Disunity does not occur because you pray differently but when you have different flags and separate borders and different leaders that prevent your unity.

how can you argue that a khilafat of today will be any different while the Muslims are the same condition as 1300 hundred years ago, if not worse?
I question you why is it the case that the muslims are the way they are? Where were they affected by? Insha-Allah I would like an answer soon.
Now, if you still want to argue on this, please argue from the point of AnHazoor (saw) Sunnah. Explain to me and others, if or when he chose to use ‘power’ to keep Muslims or others on the spiritual path!
The Prophet always used power. The power of words. I ask you to think, what do we do when over a million children die in Iraq, what do we do when the serbs rape our sisters in Bosnia, when the muslims are slaughtered in Chechnya, when the muslims of Afghanistan die because of American oil interest in the region. Do we take these events as merely news. NO this directly is OUR problem. The problem of the muslims because Allah(swt) told us that our relationship with another muslim is that of a brother/sister. The muslim ummah at large awaits the time when the false borders that divide her are removed, she awaits the time when Islam is propagated to the world not in the name of compromise but in the name of Allah.
No power is being used at all as the need of the Muslim Ummah is the Khilafah, she wants it and she needs it as she realises that Islam has to be lived and implemented in our reality.**************

[Khilafah1422]

is there anyone that can accept that secularism can co-exist with Islam?

[Khilafah1422]

do we still need to learn more after our sisters in chechnya are raped?