Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
I think our Pak friends are bound to ignore the history when they pay honor to their brave soldiers.
The artillery stock of Pakistan was over and the leaders ran for an immediate cease fire. Only more two days of continuation of war could end in a complete disaster.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
anjjan, then why did the indians not prolong the war for a couple of days more? sounds fake to me. too bad about all the cannon fodder though.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
Queer, your question is very much correct. In fact the Indian intelligentsia was good for nothing at that period. It did not inform the Indian leadership of hollowness of Pak artillery stock in time. As a result the Indian leadership agreed for a cease-fire.
At the time of cease-fire the Indians had utilized only 20% of artillery; hence a correct report by intelligentsia in time could change the result of war.
Though, I accept that Pak soldiers fought very bravely in 1965. On both sides of the border actually friends were fighting against each other, especially among officer’ ranks. After war some of Indian officers praised their Pak counterparts and recommended gallantry awards for them.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
rubbish - A.Q.Khan stole technology and then sold it for personal gains. Thus brought infamy to his country.
I agree he is not the only crook involved in these shananigans but if pakistan was to bring to trial all those involved, it would have no isi or army left.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
A soldier’s honor is based on his performance over during the war.
They are heroes. One in particular has a world record (M.M Alam).
It has absolutely nothing to do with weapons stock pile.
(jeez, how did u come up with a stupid logic like that ?! )
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
true al-majid :k:
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
Wonder.. why no one talks of the 90,000 odd Paki soldiers who capitulated in East Bangladesh.. How come they didnt fight till the last man?... sniff sniff... :-)
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
one reason is that this thread is about the '6-23 September 1965 War' and not the December 1971 war.
secondly the '71 war has been discussed alot here in the past, you can dig through old threads and find answers to your questions.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
Shame current Pak army is not what is used to be, decades ago.
While there are still the occasional Capt.Sher Khan, ther are many more Capt.Hammads.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
no, there is just 1 capt Hammad, and that too is a bit unclear so far, whether it was a Captain or a Bugti.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
How could it be a Bugti when it occurred at the oil facility where only govt employees are allowed?
An Army officer was involved so we can forget about justice, he wasn’t even properly investigated despite the victim personally accusing him.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
not wanting to divert from the topic of the thread, i remember the victim saying all she knows of the accused are his curly hair and voice. and, she didnt recognoze him at an id parade from behid a one way glass. if indeed he's the culprit and he's being saved by some authorities i condemn that and if he is proven guilty he should be punished even harder than everyday criminals who are punished for that crime.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
Actually the police report which i also read parts of(on satribune)pointed the finger at Capt.Hammad. Think about it, if all she said was he had curly hair,etc, how could it have been narrowed to Capt.Hammad? Maybe after she changed her story after pressure, but my point remains.
Anyways, you got the right sentiment about the appropriate punishment. You are right,thats what should happen.
Sadly though being in the Army in Pakistan, the biggest armed force in the country, puts you above the law
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
even more does belonging to an influential family and background…
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
True, belonging to those corrupt families that make billions out of Pakistan gets you to of many things.
However being in the Army will make sure you don;t get in trouble in the first place.
No cop dares arrest a army man.
It is the Army that says they are angels whom the country needs to run the show, thus their actions are watched, and no matter how much they are watched, they get away with murder.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
well an army man cant be arrested by a cop because thats what the law says in most countries, military personnel are arrested by military police and are tried under military courts because they are not civilians and civil laws dont apply to them, militray laws are though, which are more harsh, perhaps to convey a message that those meant to protect, if caught in a negative act, should be taught a better lesson. which is good.
and, while in general police cant arrest soldiers, if a situation does demand for a soldier to be arrested by a policeman, he can do so, provided he has good reason.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
Army personeel are governed by miltary law while in uniform. When they are in public they can be arrested. This happens in many countries, such as UK,US. I know of cases, i read about them, in these countries where they have professional armies, soldiers are not above the law.
In Pak if a cop arrest a army man,he will lose his job as well as recieve a ‘thrasing’ when the Army return to teach him a lesson. Not something i imagine, just what happens in Pak.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
Here’s a recent example, clip form the article :
Army personnel beat up journalist in Skardu.
*As soon as Abbas stepped on to the verandah, a dozen army personnel led by Major Rauf started kicking and hitting him with the butts of their guns. The major later asked him to stand in a corner with his hands raised. One eyewitness says Abbas stood in that position for a long time. Eyewitnesses interviewed by Herald also say that the military personnel misbehaved with those present inside the hall, including the AKRSP regional programme manager Mohammad Nazir, former Northern Areas Legislative Council member Syed Abbas Rizvi, scholar and writer Hasan Hasrat, Skardu Degree College principal Professor Ghulam Hasan, elected members of the union council Shigri Khurd and at least 29 poor men and women who had been invited. According to one report, the army personnel locked them all up inside the hall for over two hours. *
In any decent country these soldiers would have been locked immediately by civilian police and kicked out of the Army. But in Pak, the ‘Defenders of Pakistan’ are virtual gangsters above the law.
I’m sure you would agree these soldiers should be severly punished, but in Pak they are above the law.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
yes individual cases of madness can never be eliminated from anywhere. and they should have been punished for their wrongs. Just like there can be evil journalists too, misusing their powers as mediamen.
But all that apart, wrongdoers have to be punished, if they are not, it's sad, but we should avoid defaming the army alone and developing a hatred for them.
p.s. we've diverted enough from the topic of this thread.
a new thread can be started on your discussion if you wish.
Re: 6-23 September 1965 War, heroes, heroism and more
I understand what your saying about a new thread but as we seem to be the only two people involved in this discussion, it doesn't really matter.
I am not saying every single Pak soldier acts like that major, there is no organisation where every single person is bad. Even generals who are notorious for power and corruption have good people in their ranks. The late COAS Asif Nawaz came across as one.
However these type of incidents happens enough to show a trend.
Some incidents make the news, most don't.
Army people often act like arrogant goondas toward their own people, esp when they do something they don't like. Perhaps this is because they know they have come into power through their guns, through their force.
The fact that this particular major was not arrested and this will no doubt have no effect on his Army career says a lot.
To be frank I am really surprised if you don't know this already, it is a 'fact of life' in Pak.