I'm not happy with the relationship the fundamentalists have with the White House. I think fundamentalists of any religion are close-minded, self-righteous and sometimes hateful.
James Woolsey, the former director of the CIA claims that we are really in the midst of World War IV. (WWIII being the cold war with the Soviet Union). The more I hear you guys talk, the more I am convinced that that may be true.
Somehow Malik wants to put a religious face on this conflict, but westerners do not see it. To feel threatened by the Israeli lobby, or by Graham/Falwell/Robertson, or a bunch of 7th day Adventist Nuns is almost laughable.
But, Christians are not oriented to think about the world in religious terms. We have become too secular or ethnic, but it is not religion which drives our views. If some preacher stood up in a pulpit and ranted about death to Muslims he would be gone the next day. You may feel that the religious right has insulted or misrepresented Islam, but nowhere are they advocating another crusade to answer the issue. Compare that to extremist Mullah's who inflame crowds every Friday, and the comparison is very stark.
This may be insulting, but we don't hate you guys, we really were not paying much attention until 9/11. Maybe that is the problem, you wanted us to listen. But the voices that are speaking the loudest are the ones that least represent you. Let's face facts. The number of extremists who want to kill innocent civilians are a microscopic number of tainted individuals. The circle of those lending support is somewhat wider, but those agreeing idologically with the extremists, but who have no desire to commit terrorist acts is quite substantial. This "passive support" is the thing that is preventing a solution. The act of saying, "I don't agree with what the terrorists did, but I understand why they did it.", amounts to passive acceptance of the behavior. When the attitude shifts to "I am embarrassed by the acts of terrorists, and I condemn them." Then we may get somewhere.
And I don't mean an Arafat condemnation. A real condemnation with action behind the words. Not a condemnation with a wink and a nod and shoving the suicide bomb under the couch with a toe.....
At that point I would wager that the US will be willing to engage in better discussions and not defensive posturing. But in the history of the world, I can't think of a cause that was solved in a futile car bomb here, car bomb there....It just pi$$es people off, and steels their resolve. Americans are pretty hostile and aggressive these days. And they will be so until the terrorists are gone.
If this is WWIV, I think you are seeing Americans ready for a 10 or 20 year fight. There is no other alternative. If we changed our views and our actions tomorrow, who would we negociate an end to hosilities with? And frankly there are a great number out there who are still dredging up slavery and the native Americans. Those folks cannot be reasoned with, and there will be a contingent that will simply continue terrorism because they rather enjoy it.....
So you find it laughable that Christian Nuns take a leading part in the slaughter of tens of thousands of people, in genocidal acts of terrorism?
Sister Maria Kisito, who received 12 years, and her Mother Superior, Sister Gertrude, who received 15 years, were convicted of aiding in the slaughter of some 7,000 people who sought refuge at their convent in southern Rwanda. Prosecutors argued that they called in Hutu militiamen to drive people out of the convent knowing they would be killed, and later provided gasoline that militiamen used to set fire to a garage in which about 500 Tutsis had taken refuge.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42755-2001Jun8)
Great post, Ohioguy. I’m afraid it’s falling on deaf ears however. Somehow the actions of a couple of wayward nuns is being compared to WWIV. 
I don’t know if bias and/or ignorance plays a part in this thought process or if it’s just a ploy to deflect the introspection or admission of some responsibility.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole:
a couple of wayward nuns...
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That sort of dismissal of the genocide of thousands of people by Christian nuns negates your previous post...just as I had suspected.
Btw, read all the articles posted on Rwanda if you dare to and you will see the Christian Churches (Catholic and Protestant) involved knee deep in the genocide in Rwanda.
Malik,
I absolutely and completely and thoroughly condemn the actions of any Christian taking part in the genocide in Rwanda. It is horrific, and it is absolutely against the teachings of any Christian religion.
Now...
Do you believe that the 7th Day Adventist Church somehow condones or perpetuates that kind of violence? Is there a 7th Day Nun terrororist funding network? Has the 7th Day Adventist Church issued fatwah's against you?
Get a grip man..... People of every religion are capable of unspeakable violence. But you are failing to distinguish between a truely global organized network of extremeists bent acts of terror, and a despicable isolated act of insanity committed by Christians.
When I see some predominantly Muslim nation issue elevated terror warnings because crazed 7th day Adventist Nuns have attacked the countries infrastructure, then I will believe your little conspiracy theory. I tend to think you are the only Muslim laying awake at night worried that the Nuns may hack you to death tommorrow.
Drawing these false analogies is a pathetic attempt to bend facts, and somehow to avoid the reality, that all over the world there are extremeists who are blowing up innocent people.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
When I see some predominantly Muslim nation issue elevated terror warnings because crazed 7th day Adventist Nuns have attacked the countries infrastructure, .
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The day muslim nations will go all over the world and start killing christian women and children that day ever muslim nation will be going red alert. Go ask Londoners how many times they have gone red due to IRA.
The day a Christian cleric declares this kind of message and commits these types of acts, the comparisons between Muslim and Christian extremism can be made. The war on terror and the clash of civilizations will not end until people like this are either killed or imprisoned. The natural, negative perception of Muslims by Americans will continue until excuses for these terrorists by their “moderate” bretheren ceases and loud Muslim voices are heard that codemn their actions and philosophy. Continued comparisons to Christian terrorism are foolish and an obvious attempt to avoid introspection or admit any problems within your faith.
Purported Bin Laden Aide, in Audiotape, Urges New Attacks
*A man purporting to be Usama bin Laden’s right-hand man, Ayman al-Zawahri, urged ongoing attacks on America and its allies in an audiotape broadcast Wednesday.
The voice encouraged Muslims to attack embassies and other interests of the United States, Britain, Australia, Norway and other U.S. allies…
The new recording appears to have been made in the early days of the U.S.-led war on Iraq, Reuters reported. On the tape, “Al-Zawahri” exhorts Muslims to strike at the missions and commercial interests of America and its allies and "turn the ground beneath their feet into an inferno…
Directing some comments to Iraqis, Al-Zawahri told them they are not alone in fighting what he called the U.S. occupation, according to a Reuters translation. He urged Muslims to intensify their jihad, or holy war, against Americans and Jews.
Referring to the Sept. 11 attacks that brought down the World Trade Center, he said: "The crusaders and the Jews only understand the language of the murder, bloodshed and of the burning towers… Carry arms against your enemies, the Americans the Jews.
Consider your 19 brothers who attacked America in Washington and New York with their planes as an example," the man said in a strong voice.*
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The day a Christian cleric declares this kind of message and commits *
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It dosn't makes any difference as long as there is killings, you do it in the name of god or govt its the same thing. As long as one goes on the other side of the world and kill innocent people is a terrorist and a legit target.
No, terrorists target civilians with no regard for innocents. The U.S. has spent billions on precision guided missiles, they didn't need to but they want to avoid killing innocent civilians, Americans demand that this is done. When the likes of Saddam and Bin Laden hide out behind babies it makes this difficult.
^ Ya America also have a precession execuse for droping nukes and killings millions in Vietnam and Korea.. Its not a one way street pal you go around the world killing women and children on top of that you sell wmd to terrorist who do the same... Naaaaaaaa dion't expect a farmer to sit back and watch while one of your terrorist cronie lobbed a 2000 pound bomb on his wife and kids. What goes around comes around only this time what you call terrorist taking a lesson from Koreans will give you the taste of your own medicne. Just sit tight and watch the show and see how genie gets out of the bottle.
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*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Hundreds of terror attacks have been stopped since the crack down against terror organizations began.
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I think you have watching too much "minority report".
No one knows who is going to commit a crime.
So if and only IF I knew that you are going to commit a crime in the future...it would be okay to punish you for it now?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
No, terrorists target civilians with no regard for innocents. The U.S. has spent billions on precision guided missiles, they didn't need to but they want to avoid killing innocent civilians, Americans demand that this is done. When the likes of Saddam and Bin Laden hide out behind babies it makes this difficult.
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Let he, who is without sin cast the first stone....even if he has a precision guided stone.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
No, terrorists target civilians with no regard for innocents. The U.S. has spent billions on precision guided missiles, they didn't need to but they want to avoid killing innocent civilians, Americans demand that this is done. When the likes of Saddam and Bin Laden hide out behind babies it makes this difficult.
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well my american friends first thing you must realise that its always the winner and the man in command who makes the rules
today you call some one terrorist and the same man someday is a respected head of state? when america fough the war of indepence it could also would have been labled as terrorism? yu may argue that the war was for freedom yes thats true today but what about the british whom you were fighting the war at that time? how would have your oppostion then called your struggle? it would have certainly be labled as terrorism and washington would have been bin laden. who was nelson mendella? can you imagine the same man was once called a terrorist and spend 25 years in confinement?
saddam hussain look here my friends the american voters may be gullible enough to be fooled by your linkage between saddam and binladen we the rest of the world appart from your sidekicks know very well how saddam was promoted and was a american baby as long as he was fighting the islamic revolution in iran? likewise the taliban were actively supported by usa initially ?
its for the american public to ask thier leaders and thier adminstration why were they supplying weapons to these forces once upon a time?
and as far as usa policy towards muslims is concerned its always had a anti muslim bais and pro israeli policy is the best eg. america democracy has always supported dictators as long as they work for the american interests no matter how unpopilar they might be towards thier own people? another eg i can give you is algeria the islamist canncelled the elections that the islamist were poised to win democratically the military establishment cancelled the elections why were there no nigeria style sanctions on algeria? and this was long before 9/11.
before i conclude i would like to ask my american friends why were american mothers not ready to send thier sons to bosnia? rwanda? and if regime change is prority why dosent america do it on its door cuba?
look my american friends we all know that america is only interested in its interests ? so please dont try to fool us.
kabir,
Your question boils down to, when is there a legitimate fight for freedom, and what differentiates that from terrorism?
There will always be struggles, fights, alliances, self interest and greed. Welcome to the world.
What cannot be perpetuated or tolerated is the intentional targeting of civilains. Frankly, you can blow up a pipeline, or a utility, or a pier, or some installation. One could almost call those things legitimate infrastructure targets.
But bombs designed to maximize the number of civilian deaths? Weapons of mass destruction used to murder civilains? Crashing planes into civilian buildings? No, no cause can be that rightious that this is justified. There is a concept that the West considers important:
It is "Intent". The intentional targeting of civilians is against God and Man. No cause should be furthered by this type of behavior. Poisoning subways, dirty bombs, anthrax, car bombs in crowded markets. (I personally consider these things unmanly, despite some macho bonehead making a video while caressing his ak-47). If you want to fight, then fight. But leave the women and children out of it as best you can. Terrorists who make civilians their primary targets are frankly just pu$$ys. You can tell me all you want about how they are giving their lives for their cause, but walking onto a bus of kids, old people and mothers and detonating your suicide vest is just unmanly. That is why there is such a visceral reaction to terrorism. That is why we can never let these tactics succeed. Because if this behavior becomes the NORM, and it becomes a successful and acceptable method of achieving your aims, then every conflict will be fought this way.
Undoubtedly you will respond with, "Well Americans kill people and it is called Collateral Damage", or "US pilots bomb from 50,000 feet and that is unmanly." These arguements do not hold water. First, humans are not perfect. In war there will be civilian casualties. With a weak and stupid UN, there will be more conflicts. Let soldiers fight one another, but spare the civilains wherever you can. Why do American pilots bomb? Because we can, and destroying military sites while avoiding civilain casualties is the best way to fight. Who said war was fair? There are legitimate ways to fight wars of rebellion. At the time of the American Revolution, the US fought the most dominate army in the world and won. Shoot, if Saddam had half a brain, we would still be fighting in Iraq, he could have done much better.
Some time ago MyVoice and I went through 20 ideas on civil rebellion, economic damage and civil disobediance that the Palestinians could have used instead of bombs on civilian targets. In todays Media age the television could well be the best weapon a freedom fighter has, yet the Palestinians have not learned to manipulate television in their favor. Instead they leave smoldering buses and they give media victories to the Israeli hardliners.
So when Bin laden's second in command comes out with some statement that " all Americans understand is death and burning towers.", the man is a moron, and he overestimates his power and he underestimates the American resolve. Further attacks will only harden America more....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
....If some preacher stood up in a pulpit and ranted about death to Muslims he would be gone the next day. You may feel that the religious right has insulted or misrepresented Islam, but nowhere are they advocating another crusade to answer the issue. Compare that to extremist Mullah's who inflame crowds every Friday, and the comparison is very stark.
[/quote]
You are right, the preacher will be gone next day for "speaking it loud in public". No one will now advocate another crusade when the crusade is achieved by other words. Yes, difference is clear. Mullah speaks his mind, does not hide anything or cover his "hate" with flowers or anyother sweet word. They don't believe in "conspiring". No matter how ill-minded, sick they may be, they don't lie, speak out what they think.
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...we really were not paying much attention until 9/11.
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its only YOU who paid attention after 911. you forgot Sudanese factory bombing?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
The U.S. has spent billions on precision guided missiles, they didn't need to but they want to avoid killing innocent civilians...
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Yet somehow the US has killed many more thousands of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq than those terrorists by far. Plus each time American's like you make excuses for these killings...