2 Questions - regarding sehri and praying qaza

Assalamoalaikum. Ramzan mubarak to all brothers and sisters.

My first question is about the the time when one should stop eating in sehri. Some say that we should stop eating 10 minutes before Fajr. I’ve always thought it continues right until the time for Fajr. What is the right thing to do?

The second question is regarding praying Qaza. If I’m unable to pray Zuhr and Asr at thier scheduled time, do I have to pray it after Maghrib prayer? Or can I wait till after praying Isha? And correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we’re only supposed to pray Farz and not Sunnats for the missed prayers. So for Zuhr and Asr, we would pray 4 Farz each. Can we pray Sunnats also if we want to?

I’ll ask one more question while I’m at it. Some say that if you don’t pray five times in Ramzan, the rozas don’t count. Is that really true? I mean does it totally nullify the roza or do we get partial credit?

Thanks.

brother salah is far more important than saum, so please do not give up our prayers. here is a fatwa from islam-qa about the issue of missing salah during fasting.
Is it permissible to fast without praying?.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

No good deeds will be accepted from one who does not pray – no zakaah, no fasting, no Hajj or anything else.

Al-Bukhaari (520) narrated that Buraydah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever does not pray ‘Asr, his good deeds will be annulled.”

What is meant by “his good deeds will be annulled” is that they will be rendered invalid and will be of no benefit to him. This hadeeth indicates that Allaah will not accept any good deed from one who does not pray, so the one who does not pray will not benefit at all from his good deeds and no good deed of his will be taken up to Allaah.

It seems from the hadeeth that there are two types of those who do not pray: those who do not pray at all, which annuls all their good deeds, and those who do not offer a particular prayer on a particular day, which annuls the good deeds of that day. So annulment of all good deeds happens to those who forsake all the prayers, and annulment of the good deeds of a particular day happens to the one who omits a particular prayer.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen was asked in Fataawa al-Siyaam (p. 87) about the ruling on the fasting of one who does not pray.

He replied:

The fast of one who does not pray is not valid and is not accepted, because the one who does not pray is a kaafir and an apostate, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism], perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah) and give Zakaah, then they are your brethren in religion”

[al-Tawbah 9:11]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk and kufr stands his giving up prayer.” Narrated by Muslim, 82. And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The covenant that separates us from them is prayer; whoever gives up prayer is a kaafir.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2621; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

This is also the view of most of the Sahaabah, if not their consensus. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Shaqeeq (may Allaah have mercy on him), who was one of the well-known Taabi’een, said: The companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not think that omitting any action made a person a kaafir, except for prayer. Based on this, if a person fasts but he does not pray, then his fast is rejected and not accepted, and it will not avail him anything before Allaah on the Day of Resurrection. We say to him: Pray then fast, because if you fast but do not pray, then your fast will be rejected, because acts of worship are not accepted from a kaafir.

The Standing Committee (10/140) was asked: if a person is keen to fast in Ramadaan and to pray in Ramadaan only, but he stops praying as soon as Ramadaan is over, does his fasting count?

They replied:

Prayer is one of the pillars of Islam, and it is the most important pillar after the Shahaadatayn. It is an individual obligation (fard ‘ayn), and whoever does not do it because he denies that it is obligatory, or he does not do it because he is careless and lazy, is a kaafir. With regard to those who fast Ramadaan and pray in Ramadaan only, this is trying to cheat Allaah, and unfortunate indeed are those who only acknowledge Allaah in Ramadaan. Their fasting is not valid if they do not pray at times other than Ramadaan, rather this makes them kaafirs in the sense of major kufr (kufr akbar), even if they do not deny that prayer is obligatory, according to the more sound of the two scholarly opinions.

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Amuslim in a non muslimcountry if can not pray on time because of his or her work should he or she take fast or not because first for muslim pray is farz then taking fast .

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

It is not permissible for a Muslim to settle in a kaafir country or travel to the same except in the case of necessity. This prohibition applies even more strongly if he is unable to practise the rituals of his religion openly in that country. One of the greatest rituals of Islam is the prayer. If a person is a native of a country or has traveled there, and he is unable to practise the rituals of his religion openly there, then he must leave the kaafir land and go to the Muslim lands, so that he will be able to practise the rituals of his religion openly. It should be noted that he will not be excused for staying in that country unless he is weak and oppressed and thus unable to migrate for the sake of his religion from that land to a place where he will be able to practice his religion openly.

It is not permissible for a Muslim to delay his prayer until after the time for it has ended, unless he has an excuse. Among the excuses which are acceptable according to sharee’ah are: sleeping and forgetting. Doing worldly tasks is not an excuse for not praying or for delaying the prayer until the time for it has passed. Rather one of the attributes of the sincere believers is that they do not led trade or selling distract them from remembering Allaah and establishing regular prayer.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“In houses (mosques) which Allaah has ordered to be raised (to be cleaned, and to be honoured), in them His Name is remembered *. Therein glorify Him (Allaah) in the mornings and in the afternoons or the evenings,

  1. Men whom neither trade nor sale (business) diverts from the remembrance of Allaah (with heart and tongue) nor from performing As‑Salaat (Iqaamat‑as‑Salaat) nor from giving the Zakaat. They fear a Day when hearts and eyes will be overturned (out of the horror of the torment of the Day of Resurrection).

  2. That Allaah may reward them according to the best of their deeds, and add even more for them out of His Grace. And Allaah provides without measure to whom He wills”

[al-Noor 24:36-38]

Allaah warns His slaves against letting their wealth and children distract them from obeying and remembering Him, and He tells them that whoever does that are the true losers, and it is not as those imagine who neglect their religious commitment for the sake of work, worldly interests and the desire for immediate gain.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Let not your properties or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allaah. And whosoever does that, then they are the losers”

[al-Munaafiqoon 63:9]

Will the losers in fact have any fate other than that of the leaders of kufr, who neglect religion for the sake of greed for worldly gains?

It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned prayer one day and said: “Whoever observes it regularly, it will be light and a proof and salvation on the Day of Resurrection, and whoever does not observe it regularly, it will not be a light or a proof or salvation for him, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be with Qaroon, Pharaoh, Hamaan and Ubayy ibn Khalaf.” Narrated by Ahmad, 6540; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Mishkaat al-Masaabeeh.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

These four people are mentioned because they are the leaders of kufr. This makes an important point about the one who does not observe regular prayer, whether that is because he is distracted by his wealth, his power, his position of leadership or his business. The one who is distracted from it by his wealth will be with Qaroon; the one who is distracted by his power will be with Pharaoh; the one who is distracted by his position of leadership will be with Hamaan and the one who is distracted by his business will be with Ubayy ibn Khalaf.”

Al-Salaah wa Hukm Taarikuhu, 1/63.

What makes matters even worse is thinking of not fasting because of not praying.

Allaah indeed has spoken the truth when he said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan), then, verily, he commands Al‑Fahsha’ *, and Al‑Munkar [disbelief and polytheism (i.e. to do evil and wicked deeds; and to speak or to do what is forbidden in Islam)]. And had it not been for the Grace of Allaah and His Mercy on you, not one of you would ever have been pure from sins. But Allaah purifies (guides to Islam) whom He wills, and Allaah is All‑Hearer, All‑Knower”

[al-Noor 24:21]

Look at how the Shaytaan has tricked you into forsaking the foundation of faith, the second pillar of Islam after the Shahaadatayn, which is the prayer, then he has tricked you into forsaking another pillar, and another and another. There is no power and no strength except with Allaah.

It is your responsibility to find a way to re-build the religious commitment which you have destroyed by forsaking prayer, not to destroy an act of religious commitment that you are doing at present. How could any wise person think of such a thing?

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fulfil the Covenant of Allaah (Bai‘ah: pledge for Islam) when you have covenanted, and break not the oaths after you have confirmed them — and indeed you have appointed Allaah your surety. Verily, Allaah knows what you do.

  1. And be not like her who undoes the thread which she has spun, after it has become strong, by taking your oaths as a means of deception among yourselves, lest a nation should be more numerous than another nation. Allaah only tests you by this (i.e. who obeys Allaah and fulfils Allaah’s Covenant and who disobeys Allaah and breaks Allaah’s Covenant). And on the Day of Resurrection, He will certainly make clear to you that wherein you used to differ (i.e. a believer confesses and believes in the Oneness of Allaah and in the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad which the disbeliever denies and that is their difference amongst them in the life of this world)”

[al-Nahl 16:91-92]

Shaykh al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

This includes everything that a person has pledged to do of acts of worship, vows and oaths, because fulfilling them is an act of righteousness. “And be not” – in your breaking of your pledge – like the worst of examples, namely the woman who undoes her thread after making it strong.

Yes, as you say, prayer is more important than fasting, and it is the best of the deeds that Allaah has enjoined upon His slaves. Because of that we say: pray and remain steadfast in your fasting, and do not falter in that.

Your work may make it difficult, or you may lose your job because of it, but all that you should care about is your religion, your religion, your religion. It is more precious than your flesh and blood.

May Allaah help you and us to do that which He loves and which pleases Him.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

note: i had to delete some information about migration for the sake of islam as it was over the character limit, but i would highly encourage you to read the entire fatwa on the link listed below.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=38158&dgn=4**

ThandyMazak - Thankyou for such a nice detailed reply. To summarize, you're saying that you have to pray 5 times to get the sawab of roza, and anything less would void it entirely.

My 2 main questions are still left unanswered. I hope I didn't miss anything from the information you provided, as I admit that I skimmed just a little bit. By skimming i mean i read it but not with full comprehension. But I did carefully read almost all of it. So if someone can shed some light on that, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Re: 2 Questions - regarding sehri and praying qaza

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gupguppy - thanks :k:
What it’s saying is that in order to ensure you don’t go over the time limit, finish sehri few minutes before Fajr just to be on the safe side.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sky: *

What it's saying is that in order to ensure you don't go over the time limit, finish sehri few minutes before Fajr just to be on the safe side.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think it said that... where?

With information provided on that site I came up with this conclusion based on logical reasoning.
What you have to keep in mind is not to exceed the time of Fajr and stop eating before then. So give some extra cushion and don't continue eating until the last minute to avoid taking the risk.

^ It says nothing of the sort on that site...

Where was your "logical reasoning" when you started this thread by saying, "I've always thought it continues right until the time for Fajr"??

sky, don't mind gupguppy. He talks in circles all the time. :)

INstead of saying "yes, it does.." or "no, it doesn't, because...", gupguppy will continue with "who gave you the idea" kinda comments with sarcastic undertones.

Anyway, this is what that site says, for those who are wondering
It is permissible to eat, drink, etc. until one is certain of the time of Fajr (interpretation of the meaning): “…eat and drink until the time where the ‘white’ and ‘black’ thresholds of Al-Fajr is evident to you…” [Soorat-ul Baqarah]

So, this means it is permissible to continue eating and drinking unless it is evident for one that it is time for Fajr. Fajr can be defined as the ‘white’ light spreading across the horizon from the eastern side. If one was unable to sight Al-Fajr and there was no one else who could tell him about it through means such as raising the Azaan (The call to prayers), then one should follow the timetable that, according to the best of his knowledge, is the most accurate. This accuracy is usually established through experience or by asking experts or the earlier Muslim residents of the area

Whilst Faisal’s classic for this week is that Satan and Pharaoh will be our brothers in paradise… :smack: :mudhosh:

That was your classic, cz I said nothing of the sort :stuck_out_tongue: May be it was your superior “logical reasoning powers” too :smiley:

:rotfl: So when i say the site “says nothing of the sort” it’s talking in circles… but when you say it… duh!! :smack: :mudhosh:

^ I swear you two are worse than a married couple. :bukbuk2:

Sky just get a Ramadan timetable from your local mosque and just follow that.

brother i found this answer when i searched for your question regarding missed prayers. i learned something new myself, so inshallah asking questions benefits all. i didnt know that we make up sunnah prayers too when making up fard prayers for any thing but fajr…but now i know. jazakallah khair. and about suhoor end time, we follow the quran and it states that we eat until the time of fajr, so we do not really stop eating before the time ends just to “be on the safe side” because what is allowed is allowed and we can make our own rules regarding it. now it doesnt mean we force feed our selves even if we are full. do you get it? hadith regarding avoiding the doubtul is about matters which have not been decided upon by quran and sunnah, but since quran is clear in this regard that time for fast begins when white thread is clear from black thread, we do not try to be on the safe side. but since most of us here cant really tell when the white thread is clearly distinguishable ( i tried once, but couldnt tell difference) we should just take the schedule created by our local masjid and follow it.

I would like to know how many rakats do u have to prey if the time of the prayer has gone past ( koza ). Some say u just prey the farz salat which i am doing at the moment when i don’t have time to prey at the right time and the salat time has gone past.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

It is not permissible for a Muslim to delay the prayer until its time is over with no excuse. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, As‑Salaah (the prayer) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours”

[al-Nisa’ 4:103]

i.e., at specific times.

Reasons why prayers may be delayed until their time is over include sleeping and forgetting. It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik said: The Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever forgets a prayer or sleeps and misses it, its expiation is to make it up as soon as he remembers it.” Narrated by Muslim, 684.

With regard to work, study, etc, these are not excuses that allow delaying a prayer until its time is over. Allaah praises some people by saying (interpretation of the meaning):

“Men whom neither trade nor sale (business) diverts from the remembrance of Allaah (with heart and tongue) nor from performing As‑Salaah (Iqaamat‑as‑Salaah) nor from giving the Zakaah. They fear a Day when hearts and eyes will be overturned (out of the horror of the torment of the Day of Resurrection)”

[al-Noor 24:37]

Secondly:

Whoever neglects to pray until the time for that prayer is over, with no excuse, has committed a sin which is one of the major sins. He has to repent to Allaah and resolve to offer that prayer regularly on time. Making it up after its time is over will not avail him anything when he has missed it with no excuse. He should also do a lot of naafil (supererogatory) prayers, in the hope that they will make up the shortfall in his obligatory prayers.

With regard to the one who delays a prayer until its time is over because of a (legitimate) excuse, such as sleeping or forgetting, he has to perform the prayer as soon as that excuse is no longer in effect, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever forgets a prayer let him offer it as soon as he remembers it , and there is no other expiation but that.” Narrated by Muslim.

He should pray the number of rak’ahs he would have prayed if he had offered it on time, no more and no less, and without changing the way it is done.

In the hadeeth of Abu Qataadah in Saheeh Muslim (681) there is the story of how the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions slept and missed Fajr prayer when on a journey, and (they did not wake up) until the sun had risen. Abu Qataadah said: “Then Bilaal gave the call to prayer, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed two rak’ahs, then he prayed Fajr, and he did the same as he did every day.”

Al-Nawawi said: “The same as he used to do every day” indicates that the way in which missed prayers are to be made up is the same way as they would normally be done.

The basic principle according to the scholars is that making up is identical to the original action.

And Allaah knows best.

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i found this fatwa to answer the doubts about being on the safe side and inshallah the sheikh answers it much better than me with evidence, unlike me who just stated my opinion with out evidence.
In reference to question 12602, where you stated that stopping eating about 5 minutes before fajr (when fasting) is a form of bid’ah. I found the following hadith in Bukhari: Narrated Anas: Zaid bin Thabit said “We took the sahoor with the Prophet (saw). Then he stood for prayer.” I asked, “What was the interval between the sahoor and the adhan?” He replied “The interval was sufficient to recite fifty verses of the Qur’an.” Chapter 13, 3:144. Reciting 50 verses should take about 5 or 10 minutes, even more. So how is it a bid’ah to stop eating 5 minutes before fajr?.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Al-Bukhaari (1921) narrated from Anas that Zayd ibn Thaabit said: “We ate suhoor with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then he stood up to pray.” I [Anas] said: “How long was there between the adhaan and suhoor?” He said: “As long as it takes to recite fifty verses.”

This hadeeth indicates that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to eat suhoor this amount of time before the adhaan, not that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) started to fast and stopped eating and drinking this amount of time before Fajr. There is a difference between the time of suhoor and the time of stopping eating and drinking. This is clear, praise be to Allaah. It is like saying, “I ate suhoor two hours before Fajr.” This does not mean that you started fasting from that time, rather you are simply stating what time you ate suhoor.

What may be understood from the hadeeth of Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) is that it is mustahabb to delay suhoor and it is not mustahabb to stop eating and drinking a while before Fajr.

Allaah has permitted those who intend to fast to eat and drink until they are certain that dawn has come. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Sawm (fast) till the nightfall”

[al-Baqarah 2:187]

So it is permissible to have intercourse, eat and drink during the nights of Ramadaan from the beginning of the night until dawn comes, then we are commanded to complete the fast until night comes.

Stated by Abu Bakr al-Jassaas in Ahkaam al-Qur’aan, 1/265.

Al-Bukhaari (1919) and Muslim (1092) narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that Bilaal used to give the adhaan at night, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Eat and drink until Ibn Umm Maktoom gives the adhaan, for he does not give the adhaan until the dawn comes.”

Al-Nawawi said in al-Majmoo’ (6/406):

Our companions and other scholars are agreed that suhoor is Sunnah, and that delaying it is preferable. The evidence for all of that is the saheeh ahaadeeth. And because suhoor and delaying suhoor helps one to fast, and they involve being different to the kuffaar. Moreover the time for fasting is the day, so there is no sense in delaying iftaar or refraining from eating suhoor at the end of the night.

The Standing Committee (10/284) was asked: I read in some tafseers that the fasting person should stop eating and drinking 20 minutes before the adhaan of Fajr, and this is described as being on the safe side. How much time should there be between stopping eating and drinking and the adhaan of Fajr in Ramadaan? What is the ruling on one who hears the muezzin saying “al-salaatu khayrun min al-nawm (prayer is better than sleep)” and he says can still drink so long as the adhaan is still going on. Is this correct?

They replied:

The basic principle regarding when the fasting person should stop eating and drinking and should break the fast is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Sawm (fast) till the nightfall”

[al-Baqarah 2:187]

It is permissible to eat and drink until the dawn appears, which is the white thread of light that Allaah has made the latest time when it is permissible to eat and drink. When the second dawn appears, it is haraam to eat and drink and do other things that break the fast. Whoever drinks whilst hearing the adhaan for Fajr, if the adhaan comes after the second dawn, then he has to make up that day, but if that was before dawn, then he does not have to make it up.

Shaykh Ibn Baaz was asked about making the time for stopping eating and drinking approximately fifteen minutes before Fajr. He replied:

I do not know of any basis for this, rather what is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah is that we should stop eating and drinking when dawn comes, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Sawm (fast) till the nightfall”

[al-Baqarah 2:187]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Dawn is of two types, a dawn when it becomes haraam to eat and permissible to pray, and a dawn when you should not pray * and it is permissible to eat.” Narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah and al-Haakim, who classed it as saheeh in Buloogh al-Maraam. And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bilaal gives the adhaan at night, so eat and drink until Ibn Umm Maktoom gives the call to prayer.” The narrator said: Ibn Umm Maktoom was a blind man who did not give the call to prayer until someone said to him, ‘Morning has come, morning has come.’” Saheeh – agreed upon.

Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn Baaz, 15/281.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=38068&dgn=4*

Faisal - thanks for the info.

ThandyMazak - that was very informative. Thank you.
It's interesting that the source says we have to pray sunnats also for qaza prayers. I've only prayed fards in the past and that's what I thought most people usually do.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sky: *
Faisal - thanks for the info.

ThandyMazak - that was very informative. Thank you.
It's interesting that the source says we have to pray sunnats also for qaza prayers. I've only prayed fards in the past and that's what I thought most people usually do.
[/QUOTE]

i know, other than for fajr, i didnt think sunnahs were recomended for qaza, but i think the shiekh can be trusted because he has knowledge not because he is infalliable, so if we find anotehr sheikh with clear evidence, then inshallah we can follow him and there is no blame on us if the evidence is stronger with the other sheikh.

but basically the sheikh said that dont miss prayers in the first place so you dont have to make them up, and thats one advice that is clearly doubtless and we dont need any sheikh for that.

guard strictly As_Salawât (the prayers) especially the middle Salât (i.e. the best prayer _ 'Asr). And stand before Allâh with obedience . (Al-Baqarah 2:238)

gupguppy u have talent man don't waste it by indulging in silly arguments with fellow members.