16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

janab-e-ali · June 6, 2008, 11:08pm

That is false. The Muslim population of Bihar & UP (all of whom lived in Muslim-minority districts) almost unanimously voted for the Muslim League. By the 1946 elections, the ML was able to win over 90% of the Muslim vote across India...including areas that did not become a part of Pakistan [up until 1950, Hindus and Muslims voted separately in India and elected their own representatives].
Even if your fallacious statement was true, the areas that became Pakistan were all Muslim majority districts anyways...if most of the people in those areas supported separation (which they undeniably did), then democracy was served.
As for the rest of your post, it pretty clearly reflects upon an inability to understand basic written English, or a truly mindboggling level of intellectual dishonestly. Whatever the case, you're not worth my time.

And again, how does one "free" election change 60 year long trend?

Really? So why did India invade Hindu-majority Junagadh in 1947 after the Nawab opted for Pakistan? So what if his decision was ridiculous and clearly went against the will of most of the population (India was all too happy to hold a plebiscite their just a few weeks after taking over)...it wasn't India's right to decide. It was the Nawab's right to decide.

So then why are you bringing it up?

I repeat...Kashmir was independent of India for over 1000 years prior to the Mughal invasion. And if you want to treat the Mughal Empire as your basis for defining what territories India has a legitimate claim over, then all of South India should be independent (the Mughals only controlled South India for a few decades under Aurangzeb), and all of Afghanistan should be part of India (it was part of the Mughal Empire far longer than Kashmir was).

That's for us to decide, not you.

malhot · June 6, 2008, 11:34pm

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab: That's for us to decide, not you.

Your last para says 'us' - funny that every fundo thinks they represent their people!!

Even in Pakistan - the 'Mulla' parties were kicked out, they thought they represent the whole of Pakistan.(also remember what happened to the Lal Masjid fundo females!!)

What are your credentials!! are you elected by some one, if not always say 'me' - your sweeping generalisations & assumptions are pathetic.

janab-e-ali · June 7, 2008, 1:31am

Again with the fundamentalist accusations? You're just making yourself look foolish.

Again, if you're so convinced that we Kashmiris are overwhelmingly pro-India, then why don't you silence the separatists once and for all by giving us Kashmiris the right to vote on the issue. The fact is that despite all your desperate, pathetic rhetoric, you know as well as I do that most Kashmiris want nothing to do with India.

malhot · June 7, 2008, 2:03am

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Maybe today - but who knows about the future.

After all things change, peoples attitude changes, the old generation was pro pakistani (as you agreed, such as yourself), but now the new generation thinks differently.

Sorry, you cannot speak for all Kashmiri's, only yourself.

ravage · June 7, 2008, 3:32am

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab, your views here really juxtapose what Kashmiri people think versus the reaction they get from Indians. it verges on denial and an entitled imperialist mindset akin to what we could expect from the victorian english.

these threads are instructive, from an observers perspective

malhot · June 7, 2008, 3:46am

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Ravage: Thanks for your Victorian English lesson. Am I supposed to be impressed?.

"Substance not words" my dear Watson.

janab-e-ali · June 7, 2008, 4:59am

Ah, I see.

Only non-Kashmiris who have never so much as set foot in our country (like yourself) have the right to speak for the "new generation" of Kashmiris.

malhot · June 7, 2008, 1:21pm

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab - I have never claimed to represent anyone - only you have taken that mantle of saying 'us' whenever you speak of Kashmiri's; as if you are the elected spokesperson of all Kashmiris.

Since you already possess the required attributes of twisting things, misleading and lying - go and stand for elections. Unlike your grandfather you may become a 'cabinet minister'.

teggy · June 7, 2008, 6:08pm

By the same token, aren't you claiming to speak for the entire of Indian public.?

You said up there 'thats for us to decide, not u'

:)

malhot · June 7, 2008, 10:25pm

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Dear Teggy: please read # 281, last para - by Janab.

Even in India, as in Pakistan, there are different shades of opinion - for one person to keep saying they represent an entire people, is pathetic & malicious.

janab-e-ali · June 8, 2008, 4:07am

What are you talking about.

You have repeatedly make definitive statements about how the "new generation" of Kashmiris love India. On what basis are you making these claims?

teggy · June 8, 2008, 5:05am

Dear Malhot: I understand your point. Infact i agree. However, look at it like this:

(and i mean no offense by this). If You (an Indian friend) and I (a Paki fellow) are talking about affairs pertaining to Pakistan....then my representation of pakistanis seems more credible because i am a Pakistani. So, i am in a position (somewhat) to speak/represent the majority of Pakistanis if i am the only pakistani around. Common sense, right?!

Now! with that in mind....Janab is in a position to speak for the people of her region because she is of them, whereas, you and i are not. So her arguments are deemed more credible than yours or mine as far as Kashmiri peoples' desires go. She could be wrong, but nonetheless, you would have to prove that she is wrong by putting forth i.e., a survey done in Occupied Kashmir of the peoples' will...or something similar that clears proves your stance against hers.

Hope that makes sense.... :)

malhot · June 8, 2008, 5:54am

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Dear Teggy: I appreciate your words.

80 % of the Hindus Pundits hounded out of Kashmir now live in Northern India, in refugee camps or otherwise. Their tales of atrocities against them have stiffened the resolve of Indians against Pakistani designs.
People like Janab - who explain away this genocide against 80% of the Hindu population (as a mere Indian Government propaganda) - need to be 'shamed' for allowing this to happen.
The Jihadi's started the 'Ethenic cleansing' - I have pointed out to Janab the facts. 80% Hindus compared to 5% Muslims compelled on leaving Kashmir.
Janabs crude attempts to play the 'muslim victim' card is a direct result of the PA boast to bleed India by a "thousand cuts", this became " Death in thousands". People who live by the gun, die by the gun.
Janab mislead the people of how much she hates India, and that she would never voluntarily accept the Indian Government. Yet it transpires this same person already had accepted the Indian government and has an Indian passport.
The Raja of Kashmir acceeded to India - legally the whole Kashmir belongs to India. Over the years this became more & more complicated, with Plebiscite, non fulfillment of the conditions by Pakistan, Simla agreement etc. Today India is ready to make the LOC into the border and move on.
The Kashmir issue is slowly receeding & hopefully the displaced Hindus (& Muslims) will start returning to their homes - yet this normalcy seems to infuriate Janab into a frenzy.
Teggy - Pakistanis from the same city can & will have different views. So will the Kashmiris. Janab is no spokesperson for all Kashmiri's.
Finally a bit of advice: Hate begets hate, love begets love....

Pundit_Vikram · June 8, 2008, 7:08am

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Hello all,

It is quite obvious that Kashmir is doing just fine as part of India. The reasons are quite obvious - India is a world power economically and credibility'wise than Pakistan is or for that matter any other so called muslim country. Tourism is booming, schools and colleges are flourishing an dthe people are happier, now that at least for the past couple of years the cross-border terrorists have been stopped.

People like Janab e ali simply cannot digest the fact that their tactics have failed so miserably and they of course cannot admit defeat to their Pakistani matters. That is the fate of traitors anyway.

You guys can argue nuances all you want but the only open question is when the POK will be reclaimed by India without risking Pakistani nukes being triggered by the extremists there. That was a big problem but if Pakistan continues its unstable route much longer, something needs to be done anyway.

So the so called 'separate Kashmir' people better stop jumping up and down and making pathetic spectacles of themselves. The only thing they achieve is continue the futile hope to their Pakistani master

Regards
Pundit Vikram

janab-e-ali · June 8, 2008, 11:31am

And the atrocities committed by the Indian Army and its countermilitants against the people of Kashmir have done nothing but stiffen the resolve of the Kashmiri people against Indian occupation.

The first statement is nothing but an outright lie. When have I ever dismissed the flight of the Pandits as "government propaganda." Anyone and everyone knows that the Pandit exodus is very real...I dare you to find a post where I say otherwise.

What I have said...and even BJP-supporting Indian puppets like Farooq Abdullah agree...is that the Indian government played a significant role in sparking the exodus...both by playing up the fears of the Pandit community, and by encouraging them to leave.

Let me just say again how amusing it is to watch you talk of "genocide." No civilian deaths are justifiable (a fact that Indians seem to forget as soon as we start talking about Muslim casualties)...but according to the Indian government's own figures, a grand total of 209 Pandits have been killed over the entire 19 year history of the militancy...out of a total of 43,000+ people. In January of 1990 alone, the Indian army killed over 300 unarmed Kashmiri protesters...but of course you bitterly communal Indians don't give a damn about any non-Hindu deaths. 209 Pandit deaths constitute genocide...but the 42,791 Muslims (by Indian estimates) butchered by the Indian army are just collateral damage I suppose...or maybe you people are sick enough to think they deserved it? Just like the 10,000 people who have "disappeared" in custody, and the 8-10,000 women that the Indian army has raped in the line of duty. I have yet to hear a word out of any of you Indians condemning the crimes committed against the Muslim population by the army...at this point my guess would be that you people actually support them.

What about death tolls? 99.5% Muslim compared to 0.5% Hindu.

How is being forced to take an Indian passport voluntarily accepting Indian citizenship.

Your founding fathers...Gandhi, Nehru, etc...all traveled on British passports. What right did they have to demand indpendence after "accepting" British subjecthood?

The Nawab of Junagadh acceded to Pakistan. Why did India invade what was legally Pakistani territory? You people are all such complete hypocrites.

You mean the way that you and Vikram and Stircrasy and Anjjan and all the other Indians go into a frenzy when anyone points out that by all indications (polls, etc), most of Kashmir still favors independence...forcing you to desperately clutch at straws to make your ridiculous point [4,000 people at a Pakistani concert means most of Kashmir loves India...but it meant nothing when over 1,000,000 people from all over Kashmir marched on Srinagar to demand azaadi]...

Pundit_Vikram · June 8, 2008, 1:21pm

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Hello all,

**The evidence keeps mounting that Kashmir is returning to normalcy rapidly. **Detractors, traitors to their mother land and Pakistani agents dressed up as ‘indepedence seekers’ keep on parroting their usual desperate charges but facts prove them otherwise. Within th epast week or so just look at the facts reported that have slapped these liars and traitors in their face:

Thousands attend and enjoy Junoon concert in spite of death treats - defying the bleats of the separatist gangsters
Reports of record tourism activity send hotel prices skyrocketing - thousands of people visit Kashmir and enjoy the beauty and the locals are ecstatic about the boom in economic activity which is a great change from the boom they heard in the past from cross-border terrorist bombs
and now this! Kashmiri youth rush to join Indian Army

Regards
Pundit Vikram

Is Kashmir’s most used militant ingress route and the border district perched beside the Line of Control with the most pronounced pro-separatist sentiments witnessing a change?
Kupwara, facing Pakistan occupied Kashmir’s (PoK) capital Muzzaffarabad, has been the scene of most number of encounters between security forces and militants, numbering 900 to 1,000, during the last decade with fatalities running into thousands.
Its two thick forests – Rajawar and Kalroos – are areas known to harbour the maximum number of Pakistani mercenaries and where, according to a top army Commander, even if you launch a full division of troops, they will get lost.
But now, new winds of change seem to be blowing in the area and a pointer is the unprecedented response evoked by an army recruitment drive currently on in some areas of the district.
In the first of the series of recruitment drives launched in Kupwara and neighbouring areas in 20 years, the response has been overwhelming, an army official said.
“For single vacancy in the force, we are getting 150 aspirants,” he said.
The recruitment camps were held in Chhamkote, Chowkibal and Tregham areas and according to official figures, 1,643 people responded and 183 were screened for final selection.

It may be recalled that during the height of militancy from 1990 to 2005, security forces were unable to hold or even think of any recruitment camps.
The army only ventured to hold its first recruitment drive in 2005, when 1,126 people responded with 127 qualifying after the screening.
Most of those recruited joined regular army units of the Jammu and Kashmir Images] Light Infantry and Jammu and Kashmir Rifles.
And some of them from this den of militancy have even won a number of gallantry awards in the recent investitures, that too for daredevil exploits against militants.
Kupwara is not the only area, army officials said, they were receiving equally strong response from other areas in the valley like Baramulla, Anantnag and Srinagar Images].
Since 2003, army has held regular recruitment drives at Nugam and Anantnag in south Kashmir, Srinagar, Baramulla, Kupwara, Chowkibal and Tangdar in north Kashmir.
“There is an unprecedented response,” a top army official said.
Giving figures, he said while in 2005, over 2,300 youth had applied, the numbers rose to 2,900 in 2006-07.

“In 2008, in only one camp in Kupwara, so far, 1,100 youth had applied,” the official said, adding, “Increased numbers, specially during the last two years are indicative of reduced level of violence and aspirations of the youth to join the army, whose perception has changed among the people.”

malhot · June 8, 2008, 1:53pm

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab -
1. Keep stiffening your (and I mean only 'your') resolve - time will prove whose resolve is stronger.
2. "*...is that the Indian government played a significant role in sparking the exodus...both by playing up the fears of the Pandit community, and by encouraging them to leave" *.
This statement and others before this, show your callousness to their plight.

The Jihadi's targeting Hindus asking them to leave or die, forced the Pundits to leave their anchestorial homes. Not offers of 'free transport & accomodation' as you want us to believe. , Because you have allowed this to happen - In time, you will understand why I keep saying "hang your head in shame".

. Even in Bangladesh when they took up arms against the state - Pakistan crushed it killing 300,000 and countless rapes in less than one year. What do you think the numbers are in Balochistan - with gunships and planes bombing them? - do you think the state should remain impotent.??

Some Kashmiri Muslims joined & supported the Jihadi's from Pakistan. 2500 Jihadis per year average killed , amounts to the figure of 43,000. I do concede that innocents too get caught up in the shooting.

The Jihadi's are trained killers, after they had killed or cleansed Kashmir of the Hindus, they would have then started cleansing the Shia's, ahmedies, women wearing Burqa's etc etc.

Janab was very proudly stating that she wore sleeveless dresses during her sisters wedding - well if the Jihadi's had their sway, she would have been whipped, or acid thrown on her, or worse hanged. Her Shia relatives would be running away from Kashmir.

Passport: Janab boasted that her Grandfather refused to take Indian Citizenship - even when he was offered 'cabinet positions". Janab stated she would not like to break this "tradition". She lied. She did claim Indian citizenship and did apply for an Indian passport. There are several in Kashmir, who do have a moral fibre in their convictions - but Janab is not one of them.
Why only Junagarh, India even took Hyderabad & Goa - the unity of the country was very important. Even Pakistan took Kohat by force. Pakistan also tried to take Kashmir by force (in 1948) - unfortunately for Pakistan, the Raja panicked and acceeded to India.
.
Tourist numbers are up, houseboats & hotels are full and charging double their charges, money is flowing, new facilities for tourists are being planned, investment is going to increase in the state, dams are being built, thousands are attending concerts

Poor, Janab is still hammering away trying to prove that things are not returning to normalcy.

janab-e-ali · June 8, 2008, 11:14pm

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Thank you for that post malhot.

If you're any indication as to what the "average Indian" thinks like, then I have no problem in saying that you truly are a morally bankrupt people. As I suspected, you explain 43,000 Kashmiri Muslim civilian deaths [more like 70-100,000 according to international NGOs] as "jihadis"...you even rationalize away the rape and sexual assault of 12% of Kashmiri women...after all, India can't remain "impotent."

209 Pandits constitutes genocide, but you have no problem sweeping the war crimes committed against tens of thousands of Kashmiri Muslims by your army under the rug. That's all I needed to hear...my suspicions about you people have been confirmed. Forget not caring about non-Hindu deaths...you actually support the rape and murder of Kashmiris.

The British never thought they'd have to leave India, the French never thought they'd have to leave Algeria...but eventually their imperialist reigns will came to an end. Eventually the Indian barbarians [after your last post, that's a very apt description] will be expelled from Kashmir. This too shall pass.

vineshvk · June 9, 2008, 3:51pm

In a segregated system I would be surprised if it did not happen. One point agenda one group had was a creation of a separate nation based solely on religion. I am surprised that they did not win the whole 100%.

Two elections, janab . Things were difficult in 1989, but improved by the end of 2000. It will continue to improve, if not much religious extremism present itself again.

It was not in Indians right to invade. True. But Indians understood the evil design of Pakistan. Nawab opted for Pakistan. Rebellion took place and India invaded. Pakistan wanted to do the exact same thing in Kashmir but acted hastily. King of kashmir did not cede to India, unlike the nawab of junagadh. Pathans attacked while still the king did not make up his mind. Most likely he would have opted to be independent. The invasion of Pathans made his job easy.

Because Kashmir had a hindu tradition. So distancing yourself from India does not make sense to me. Budhism and mughal rule flourished in afghanistan much later and hence it is not influenced by India than for egs Kashmir is.

You got me completely wrong. I do not intend to say that Mughal period should be the yardstick. No it is not. My intention of bringing hinduism into all this was to show that your state had a lot in common with Indians in general before it was cut out. Even then there was trade and commerce. It just happened that the trade route passed through now Pakistan.

Unfortunately India has a lot bigger role to play than you wanted to admit.

janab-e-ali · June 10, 2008, 6:38am

I see. So if you reject the validity of the British Indian elections, you must not believe that Congress won a majority of Hindu votes either. On what basis can you even claim that most of India supported independence from the British at all then?

On what basis can you claim that J&K would have remained independent if the Pathans hadn't invaded? The Nawab of Hyderabad opted for independence...one year later, India invaded and took over.
Remaining under the Dogra Maharaja's rule wasn't an acceptable option either...he was as much a foreign tyrant as Kashmir's current rulers. Indians seem to forget that the Pathans didn't invade Kashmir out of the blue...there was already a pro-Pakistan rebellion underway in the parts of the state that now comprise Azad Kashmir.
I will point out again that the Pathans weren't the first foreign invaders to enter Kashmir either. It is well established fact that the state forces of Patiala had entered Kashmir at least a week before the Pathan invasion. By that point, Patiala had already joined India...and if that wasn't enough, its erstwhile ruler was a general in the Indian army. Technically speaking, Patiala's troops were India's troops...if anyone was demonstrating their "evil designs" on Kashmir, it was India.

What are you talking about?

Kashmir and Afghanistan converted to Islam at around the same time (12th-14th century). Afghanistan's Buddhist tradition came to an end at around the same time as Kashmir's Hinduu/Buddhist tradition. And since that time, Afghanistan has been politically associated with India for far longer than Kashmir.