I Agree, and but it is not their right to portray themselves what they are not...
Otherwise tomorrow u might say that, it is the human right of deceiver to deceive, and he should be prosecuted for that, it is profession of their choice...
Who says its not their right? YOU! Who are you, or for that matter who is anyone else to declare anyone else anything other then what they say they are?
Re: 15 Ahmadis arrested for gathering in a building resembling a mosque
^ exactly. Why would anyone 'portray' to be someone they are not?..
You really do miss the point...
Laws should be obeyed, so long as they are reasonable. When laws are unreasonable and unjust, then people have a right to rebel. By your logic, if tommorow the Pak govt were to say all Muslims should stop being Muslim, you would gladly oblige.
And the reason they make a building to resemble a mosque is because a. They say they are Muslim, and refuse to be told otherwise. b. Because archtecture is not copyrighted by Islam. A mosque can take any shape, be arabesque, moorish, or whatever. You might be interested to know that the early Islamic Archtecture was influenced by Byzantine Christian architecture... And there are even Churches and synagogues that look like Mosques!
So its pretty ridiculous no matter what angle you look at it.
And untill you accept this reality that non of the Muslim clans accept qadyanies are Muslims, and by believing in the prophet-hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, they have accepted some other sharia and are no longer part of nation of Islam...
Now u did mention something about history, so let me add my two cents in that part as well, I don't know if you are familar with Qaramti Movement, they had same believes as Qadayanies have but instead of coming up with conspiracies, they were of violant nature...
They were kafirs, and they thought all other muslims are kafirs as those muslims does not believe in their prophet...
BY any point, it is not appropriate, to have a mosque resembling some other religion.. remember qadyanies are Kafir and Zandeeqs, so doesn't matter what angle u use, anyone using mosques and are not muslims must have some kind evil-intentions to decieve others... thats y the law is there... if u don't like it.. leave the country and go away...
Anyway most of the time this whining of opresion from the Ahmadies are because they want to have asylum in Germany and UK ( thats where they are in big number i guess).
edited
If you want to talk about Taliban start separate thread.
Who says its not their right? YOU! Who are you, or for that matter who is anyone else to declare anyone else anything other then what they say they are?
If it is their right to portray themselves which they are not, then this legitimates all the con-mans in the world.. it is the right of con-man to con anyone and any law prohibiting his action should be violation of his basic rights..
And who r YOU to say it is their right to believe in an imposter Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan and still call them muslims...
You had to bring India into the discussion since you have no defence for this persecution by the state ...... inspite of what you say the minorities in India are growing with the general population of India while as in Pakistan the numbers have dwindled because of state prosection.
This has nothing to do with India or what happens in India or UK for that matter. Don't hijack the thread. If you want to talk about world there is world affairs forum.
For everyone else, please stick to the topic. Off topic posts will be removed.
Where are my posts, where it has disappeared? All my posts were relevant to the topic. I do not know how 'Mods' see things and considered my posts off-topic? Is it due to lacking of understanding or what?
We were discussing persecution and prosecution of a sect (Qadiyani) in Pakistan. Since subject was about State declaring a misguided sect (Qadiyani) non-Muslims and persecuting that sect on basis of constitutional declaration, considering right of Qadiyani calling themselves Muslim and building their worship places similar to Mosque as illegal on constitutionally legal ground, than same should be applied to another worse group calling themselves Muslim (Taliban, and those who believe on suicide and sectarian violence, etc ... and religious sect that is behind these groups) and that is what I wrote.
PS: As for me personally, I think that state has no right to interfere in religion of anyone or declare any group non-Muslim.
Re: 15 Ahmadis arrested for gathering in a building resembling a mosque
^^ I think mods didn't like us agreeing on those points... :)
Anyway, If state is secular then yes it has nothing to do with the religion at some extent, but if it is Islamic Republic of Pakistan, then yes it is duty of govt. to take care of things like Qadyani Movement & etc
^^ I think mods didn't like us agreeing on those points... :)
Anyway, If state is secular then yes it has nothing to do with the religion at some extent, but if it is Islamic Republic of Pakistan, then yes it is duty of govt. to take care of things like Qadyani Movement & etc
:)
^^ I think mods didn't like us agreeing on those points... :)
No, not really. I'm trying to guide discussion w/o micromanaging threads, but some people hijack the threads & take it totally different direction that has nothing to do with topic & the quality of discussion goes down with it. So, my humble request to all, stay on topics of discussion, avoid personal attacks and one liners. I do not want to over moderate or deny anyone right to free speech.
btw, Saleem, your post have been removed to review folder. If you have question PM me.
No, not really. I'm trying to guide discussion w/o micromanaging threads, but some people hijack the threads & take it totally different direction that has nothing to do with topic & the quality of discussion goes down with it. So, my humble request to all, stay on topics of discussion, avoid personal attacks and one liners. I do not want to over moderate or deny anyone right to free speech.
btw, Saleem, your post have been removed to review folders. If you have question PM me.
I know and i agree with u, i was just joking...
^^ I think mods didn't like us agreeing on those points... :)
Anyway, If state is secular then yes it has nothing to do with the religion at some extent, but if it is Islamic Republic of Pakistan, then yes it is duty of govt. to take care of things like Qadyani Movement & etc
Anyhow, Pakistan is 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' and it is Islamic principle never to judge anyone on what they believe, as that is matter of heart and only Allah knows what is in heart - but only judge others on what they confess verbally, as we can only use senses what Allah has given and could not speculate on what others believe cause we are creation ourselves, and thus leave the judgment of a person's believes on Allah (that means, if anyone says that they are Muslim, accept that, however unwillingly it may be).
No, not really. I'm trying to guide discussion w/o micromanaging threads, but some people hijack the threads & take it totally different direction that has nothing to do with topic & the quality of discussion goes down with it. So, my humble request to all, stay on topics of discussion, avoid personal attacks and one liners. I do not want to over moderate or deny anyone right to free speech.
btw, Saleem, your post have been removed to review folder. If you have question PM me.
Shamraz: There are ways to say relevant things but in more effective ways, and that means saying something with examples that everyone can understand. I believe that whatever I wrote in my both posts you removed were relevant to this topic. Anyhow, I am not going to make fuss about it, as it does not matter as they way things are, I have already stopped posting a lot on this forum anyhow.
Anyhow, Pakistan is 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' and it is Islamic principle never to judge anyone on what they believe, as that is matter of heart and only Allah knows what is in heart - but only judge others on what they confess verbally, as we can only use senses what Allah has given and could not speculate on what others believe cause we are creation ourselves, and thus leave the judgment of a person's believes on Allah (that means, if anyone says that they are Muslim, accept that, however unwillingly it may be).
Agreed!
But what if somebody worshiping according to the ways of RAM, and calling him self muslim.
We need to look into the circumstances in which Islam came..
In those time there were all kind of religions, Hinduism, Christianity, Jews, Pagans and u just name it... The Prophet (SAAW) refuted all of them, and declared all religion divine or man-made null and void, and then gave the right path. Which is going to there till the end of times.
Now if anyone says that it is part of Islam in believing and practicing Christianity then he have to do some serious reading about the teaching of Islam, and same goes to qadyanies, its is possible that they have same norms as muslims have, but for believing in the prophet-hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, they are called Ahmadies or Qadayanies or what ever.. they are niether a cult /Branch of Islam nor they have anything to do with Islam. Infact, according to Qadyanies, anyone who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan is considered Kafir..
the case is different amoung Shia-Sunni-Wahabi conflict... and cannot be compared with the case of Qadyanies.
Agreed! But what if somebody worshiping according to the ways of RAM, and calling him self muslim.
We need to look into the circumstances in which Islam came..
In those time there were all kind of religions, Hinduism, Christianity, Jews, Pagans and u just name it... The Prophet (SAAW) refuted all of them, and declared all religion divine or man-made null and void, and then gave the right path. Which is going to there till the end of times.
Now if anyone says that it is part of Islam in believing and practicing Christianity then he have to do some serious reading about the teaching of Islam, and same goes to qadyanies, its is possible that they have same norms as muslims have, but for believing in the prophet-hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, they are called Ahmadies or Qadayanies or what ever.. they are niether a cult /Branch of Islam nor they have anything to do with Islam. Infact, according to Qadyanies, anyone who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan is considered Kafir..
the case is different amoung Shia-Sunni-Wahabi conflict... and cannot be compared with the case of Qadyanies.
hanibal mere dost aap phir discussion ko religious side pe le ke jaa rahe ho..i ll suggest to keep it context of state affair issue..BTW i seriously think that blame game os saying kaafir to each other is pretty normal these days.
can i just mention that saying kaafir is different from saying non muslim...
could you please stop bringing Mirza sb again and again in ur discussion as this is wayy off the topic....well u may think otherwise...but plz keep it to a state affair issue.
Re: 15 Ahmadis arrested for gathering in a building resembling a mosque
^^ Bhai app nay dekha hay kay maiN nay kisay quote kiya hay, app discussion kay uss hisay per zyada ghor karaiN jin maiN app say baat key gayee hay.. na kay dosrooN kay diya kay comments per apnay comments daiN.. yeh guftagoo kay bunyadi adaab haiN,, agr app in per amal karaiN tu behter..
Re: 15 Ahmadis arrested for gathering in a building resembling a mosque
janaab asal mien samjh hi nahin lagg rahi kahan se shuroo karoon..kahin india pakistan ki jang ho rahi hai orr kahin bangladesh ki kahanian...or kahin thaakre ke kissey...
to mene socha ke shuroo se he shuroo kar leta hoon....par aap bhi to baaz nahin aaate Mirza sb A.S ko discussion mien ghaseetne se...
aaj shaaid men achi tarrah hissa na le sakoon as my wife n kid are bemaar...prayers for their quick recovery r requested...jazakallah.
Re: 15 Ahmadis arrested for gathering in a building resembling a mosque
^^ InshaAllah they will be fit & fine soon ( Ameen), but do take them a doctor..
You are saying that since, as you claim, it was not religious persecution it was ok to kill so many people !!!!!
All I am saying is that you are clutching on straws, which is why you brought in bangladesh. We dont consider ahmedis to be Muslims, so your absurd Bangladesh analogy (bengaliz are Muslims) doesnt hold true here.
[quote]
Thackery and co would not be able to kill so many .... even in their dreams.
[/quote]
Sure, I see you have a soft corner for Thack Sharkaar.
[quote]
Of all the killings Thackery "could" be held responsible ... directly or indirectly .... the number would not match "one day" of killing in East Pakistan .... or as it was refered to as ... being "sent to Bangladesh"
Guess the mods would be dropping in soon :)
[/quote]
Again, thackerey is a religious warrior revered and admired in India. Plus, the 3000-5000 Muslims killed in India just in Gujrat in one month alone says alot.
All I am saying is that you are clutching on straws, which is why you brought in bangladesh. We dont consider ahmedis to be Muslims, so your absurd Bangladesh analogy (bengaliz are Muslims) doesnt hold true here.
Sure, I see you have a soft corner for Thack Sharkaar.
Again, thackerey is a religious warrior revered and admired in India. Plus, the 3000-5000 Muslims killed in India just in Gujrat in one month alone says alot.
Clutching at straws ...... perhaps you forgot ... bengalis were also Pakistani hindus and a good number of them were "sent to Bangladesh" by Pakistani establishment !!!!
As for Gujarat ... a total of 790 muslims and 254 hindus were killed in the riots ..... Perhaps a number that can match one day of killing in East Pakistan !!