Dil:
"STORCH, Ive already said that Sadam is a Tyrant and needs to be removed.. but NOT at the cost of millions of Iraqi lives....:
We're waitin' buddy, lay out your master plan!
OG not that mega*stories*.com site again! :D
Btw, That is a silly argument that Sadam is controlling how much the Iraqi public gets in wages... lol!! With a collapsed economy and Iraq only allowed to sell a small percentage of its oil, with a trade embargo on many goods, its no surprise that the Iraqis average earnings are only $10. In every society there are rich and poor, even in war torn countries such as Iraq there will always be rich and poor.
Dil,
Somewhere from my finance backround I remember that a government has the power to tax it's citizens, print money and dole out government contracts. Foreign exchange is relative only when dealing in commodities that cannot be produced within the domestic economy.
So yes i believe that Saddam gets to decide who gets rich and who does not.....
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*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
STORCH, Ive already said that Sadam is a Tyrant and needs to be removed.. but NOT at the cost of millions of Iraqi lives....
As for his threat to other nations.. Do you not think if he wanted to attack another nation he would of done so by now?? Military analysts beleive most of his military power, men and equipment were destroyed in the last war.
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See, this isn't about him rolling a bunch of old Russian tanks into SA or Kuwait,
It's about long-range nuclear tipped missiles, or suitcase bio or nuclear weopons funnelled to Al Quaeda. This is what we're worried about. And if he had 'em, it just plain wouldn't be good. We are genuinely and legitimately worried about a catastrophic event that may be perpertrated directly or indirectly by Sadaam. What specific and verifiable information do you have that this is a completely unfounded concern? Are we just nuts? I suppose it's possible.
I didn't want to read this post.
I wanted to ignore it because it makes me hurt. It makes me feel guilty because I am an American and have what these kids don't.
Makes me feel responsible for sanctions and hurting those that don't have medicines or clean water..etc..and I want to be able to stop what is happening but I don't know how.
I have to force myself to read this..and..I want to close my eyes. Not because I don't care. Its because I do.
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*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
I have to force myself to read this..and..I want to close my eyes. Not because I don't care. Its because I do.
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Sometimes ignorance is such sweet bliss, is it not. How i wish i had never heard of Iraq sometimes, stayed away from this whole issue when i had the opportunity. But then i suppose silence is complicity.
Q?
Why isn't N. Korea more of a threat to us than Saddam?
Is it because N. Korea has no oil? Or... is that government more trustworthy? (even after they signed a treaty and broke it?)
Why don't the Iraqi people revolt against Saddam? Is it because they are stiffeled?
Or is it because the 10 years of sanctions and resolutions give Saddam ammo to turn the people against us? And no matter what we do.. they will hate us anyway?
Anyone know the answer?
>>Why isn’t N. Korea more of a threat to us than Saddam?<<
It might be, at least according to this article.
>>Why don’t the Iraqi people revolt against Saddam? Is it because they are stiffeled?<<
With all due respect :flower1: AAG, i think the issue of why the Iraqi people do not oust Hussein, is an issue best left to those who are most affected by Hussein, i.e., the Iraqi people themselves. It’s not for Pakistanis, Indians, Nigerians, Russians, Brits, Americans, Bosnians, etc., to figure out what to do with the fate of another country. With all due respect, in my opinion, that’s exclusively upto the people of Iraq.
>>And no matter what we do.. they will hate us anyway?<<
There was a story in the Milwaukee Sentinel two years ago regarding this Iraqi mother whose story the Sentinel staff were covering at an Iraqi hospital. She had just lost her son to cancer for want of chemotherapy drugs that are Alhamdulillah widely available in North America and elsewhere. As she was crying sitting next to the lifeless body of her son, she sobbed out in Arabic that she hoped no American mother would ever have to experience the type of pain she was experiencing (of losing a child).
Despite it all, never allow yourself to believe for a second that “they” hate “us” - this type of divisive terminology is more suited for the likes of bin Laden or Bush. The majority of Iraqis do not hate the ‘west’.
Perhaps 1.6 Million children dying and 1 million others on the verge of starvation is not ENOUGH for the war mongers. :nook:
Child death rate in Iraq trebles](http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1039523437098) Financial Times
By Frances Williams in Geneva Dec 12 2002
The death rate for young children in Iraq has almost trebled since 1990 to levels typical of a least-developed country, according to the United Nations children’s fund. Unicef’s 2003 report on the state of the world’s children published yesterday shows that Iraq’s under-five mortality rate, considered the best single indicator of child welfare, was 133 per 1,000 live births in 2001. This compares with 50 in 1990, just before the Gulf war and the imposition of UN sanctions.
Critics blame the sanctions for plunging Iraq into economic misery after two decades of rising living standards and social progress that saw the under-five mortality rate slashed from 171 in 1960. Only two countries outside Africa - Afghanistan (in fourth place) and Cambodia (30th) - now rank worse than Iraq (33rd) on this indicator.
Unicef data also show that nearly a quarter of babies born in Iraq between 1995 and 2000 were underweight, compared with 7 per cent for neighbouring Iran, and that more than a fifth of young children - close to 1m - had moderate or severe stunting from malnutrition.
Iraq’s regression over the past decade is by far the most severe of the 193 countries surveyed. But child mortality has also risen in several southern African countries afflicted by the Aids epidemic, notably Botswana, Zimbabwe and Swaziland, where a third or more of the adult population are infected with HIV.
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*Originally posted by Stu: *
When a parent commits a crime and is punished, the sad fact is that his children may suffer too. There was no difference in the intention here.
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Man.. you almost make me sick! In other words, you are approving those deaths.
<~~ Not a political Guru.
However I do think...sanctions do give Saddam ammo against the west.
Anything and everything wrong with the country can be blamed on sanctions.
Gives Saddam "face."
Lets him believe that he isn't responsible.
Certainly for awhile..other middle-eastern countries likely...liked having Saddam as a scapegoat..so that his troubles took away attention for their lack of ?
Anyway..is what my uneducated guess is.
AAG, its not just Iraqi officials that are concerned about the mounting deaths due to the sanctions.. it is UN officials, International statesmen, International Aid Organisations, Unesco, UN agencies, retired US officials, retired generals, freelance journalists, many, many others who have seen the situation for themselves and have publicised the humanitarian disaster unleashed on the Iraqi children.. And now the Bush Administration is talking about extending the sanctions as well as planning another war against Iraq 
Report says Iraqi children at grave risk of starvation, disease, trauma
Iraq war would be disaster for children](http://www.wcr.ab.ca/news/2003/0210/children021003.shtml) Western Catholic Reporter 02 Feb 03
By ART BABYCH, Canadian Catholic News Ottawa
**A new war in Iraq would be catastrophic to the 13 million children in Iraq, says an international study team funded in part by Church organizations including the Canadian Catholic Organization for Development and Peace. Iraqi children are at grave risk of starvation, disease and psychological trauma and are already highly vulnerable due to prolonged economic sanctions, says the team.
In a report released Jan. 30 entitled Our Common Responsibility: The Impacts of a New War on Iraqi Children, the independent group of academics, researchers and practitioners, says Iraqi children “are more vulnerable to the adverse effects of a new war than they were before the Gulf War in 1991.”**
The team produced a comprehensive report on the humanitarian effects of the Gulf War, which has been acknowledged by many as the most comprehensive study of the impact of war on civilians. Among its new findings based mainly on field data and thousands of independently conducted household interviews throughout Iraq, the team said:
The 16 million Iraqi civilians who are totally dependent on government-distributed food rations will face food shortages, malnutrition and possibly starvation if war breaks out. War could result in as many as 1.4 million Iraqi refugees and as many as two million internally displaced persons. As many as 500,000 people could require emergency medical treatment. With war looming, many children have nightmares and 40 per cent do not think life is worth living.
**Iraq’s water and sanitation systems are in bad shape as the result of 12 years of sanctions. A further disruption of the services, as occurred during the 1991 Gulf War “would be catastrophic for Iraqi children.” **
The international study team concluded that “a grave humanitarian disaster” will occur if war breaks out in Iraq. It added, “While it is impossible to predict both the nature of any war and the number of expected deaths and injuries, **casualties among children will be in the thousands, probably in the tens of thousands and possible in the hundreds of thousands.” **
This is getting ridiculous,everyone knows that people are suffering,that children are suffering and that the sanctions are a problem,even Bush was last Sep.trying to work out some way to change the santions so that the innocent people in Iraq,got the humanitarian help they need.
Unfortunatly,DHP,Nadia this is not as easy as we would all like it to be and there are differing views on how this should be done.Of course now it looks like nothing can happen until this weapons issue is sorted out one way or another.
So it seems to me that although a worthy and lofty mission it is,that you have taken up on behalf of those little children,perhaps you should start to put yourselves in their shoes,i know when i do,i would be wishing that someone in this world would come and get rid of this menace to our society,which no one here disputes that he is a villain,Saddam Hussein
*Iraq's water and sanitation systems are in bad shape as the result of 12 years of sanctions. A further disruption of the services, as occurred during the 1991 Gulf War "would be catastrophic for Iraqi children." *
If they bombed Iraq's sanitation systems in the first war, and are planning as bigger war now, surely they will cause much more damage, and bring a total catastrophe, especially for Iraqi children?
**
…deliberately, i might add: The Secret Behind the Sanctions - How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq’s Water Supply, Professor Thomas Nagy (George Washington University)
Very thought provoking article, which points to factors I was not aware of before. At least one member of Congress has picked up the US deliberately targeted Iraq’s water supplies:-
At a House hearing on June 7, Representative Cynthia McKinney, Democrat of Georgia, referred to the document “Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities” and said: “Attacking the Iraqi public drinking water supply flagrantly targets civilians and is a violation of the Geneva Convention and of the fundamental laws of civilized nations.”
Very disturbing the fact that the Bush Adminstration wanted to inflict so much suffering on Iraqi civilians, they knew that thousands of the more vulnerable members of society would die from hunger and disease directly as a result of the destruction of the water facilities.
Malik and Dil he Pakistani, Perhaps it does force us to think about some of the discrepancies between the stated aims of our policies towards Iraq versus the actual consequences. This article regarding the deliberate targeting of the water supply - while the US being fully cognizant of the fact that the millions of civilians accessing that supply would be compelled to drink and bathe in contaminated (sewage) water - also, perhaps, calls into question why this has not yet been sufficiently reported by the media in North America.
Can you imagine the uproar if it was Iraq deliberately contaminating the water supply of Kuwait? It would be a propaganda field day for Bush and his right-wing pals, not to mention how this Forum would come alive with allegations of 'i told you Saddam is such a nasty dictator'. Since it is just the US that deliberately contaminated Iraq's Tigris and Euphrates rivers (Iraqi lives ranking right down there with Palestinians), it is just not worthy of hitting the evening news.
nadia, excellent points you’ve raised :k: The media has also failed to pubicise the UN Humanitarian Report on Iraq which has predicted over 500,000 casualties in the first few weeks of an invasion, many of these deaths will be directly attributable to the destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure including the fresh water supplies.